A Tree Grows in Brooklyn

Betty Smith's "A Tree Grows in Brooklyn" was an instant classic with American audiences when it was released in 1943. Drawing on her own life, Smith vividly captures Brooklyn in the 1910s through the eyes of her heroine, Francie Nolan. The novel's poignant depictions of poverty, urbanism, education, immigration, and especially family resonated with wartime America, but does it hold up today? Our hosts ponder whether this book is really for children at all (alcoholism, bigamy, child labor, oh my!) and whether a book so rooted in a historical period can be timeless. We also have a discussion with a local County Councilwoman that unlocked our first ever bonus content! 

These Books Made Me is a podcast about the literary heroines who shaped us and is a product of the Prince George's County Memorial Library System podcast network. Stay in touch with us via Twitter @PGCMLS with #TheseBooksMadeMe or by email at TheseBooksMadeMe@pgcmls.info. For recommended readalikes and deep dives into topics related to each episode, visit our blog at https://pgcmls.medium.com/. 

We cover a lot of ground in this episode and used some books and articles as jumping off points. Here’s a brief list of some of them if you want to do your own further research:

• Jacqueline Woodson on A Tree Grows: https://lithub.com/jacqueline-woodson-on-the-two-books-that-helped-her-grow-as-a-writer/
• Maureen Corrigan's "A Tree Grows in Brooklyn’ was a classic. Does Betty Smith’s follow-up warrant reconsideration?"
• Robert Cornfeld's "The Tree Still Grows in Brooklyn"
• "A Tree Grows in Brooklyn and the Jewish Question" by Van Wallach
  
  
  
  

Transcript

Kelsey 0:12

Hi, I'm Kelsey.

Heather 0:13

I'm Heather.

Dalia 0:14

I'm Dalia.

Hannah 0:15

I'm H annah.

Kelsey 0:16

And this is our podcast- These Books Made Me. Today, we're going to be talking about A Tree Grows in Brooklyn by Betty Smith. Friendly warning- as always, if you don't yet know the real name of Sissy's husband, John, this podcast may contain some spoilers. Second warning. This book contains mature topics that we will be discussing. And this episode is rated T for teen.

Heather 0:41

All right ladies. So let's start this off with what this book means to you. Did you experience this as a child, as an adult? What's your foundation for this book?

Hannah 0:52

Well, I read it as a young adult, I think. I don't remember exactly it was class and honestly I remembered it only in pieces before I re-read it for this episode, I remembered mostly some of the more harrowing scenes. So it was a bit of discovery to go back and read it as an adult.

Dalia 1:09

Um, for me, I read it when I was about nine years old. Um, I really didn't remember a lot of it until this reread. Um, I think I remember just kind of, um, Francie and Johnny's relationship the most in rereading that I really, it was really enjoyable to reread that father daughter relationship.

Heather 1:28

So I came to this book also about the same age, Dahlia. I think I was probably around eight when I read it for the first time. Um, you guys can see, I have a very much loved first edition copy that's been in my family for as long as I've been around. So this book, I think really resonated to me for a lot of reasons that we'll talk about going forward. Um, but also it has become a ritual for me every year. Like I read this book around the holidays every single year. Um, it's one of the books that like reliably can make me cry, which I actually enjoy that experience sometimes. So, um, I think it's, it's just a really meaningful piece of literature in my life and has been since I was a little kid.

Kelsey 2:11

I have never read this book before this week when I read it for our podcast. So I'm coming into it with grown-up eyes and I'm sure this, well, we've already kind of chatted off, off pod. That it's been quite a different experience for me, I think, than for everyone else. But, um, I did really enjoy the experience of reading it.

Dalia 2:29

And now here's a summary of the book. A Tree Grows in Brooklyn. A Tree Grows in Brooklyn is a coming of age story of Francie Nolan, an 11 year old girl growing up in the hardscrabble slums of Williamsburg, Brooklyn in the early 1900s. Francie's father. Johnny is a charismatic alcoholic who struggles to maintain employment. Her mother, Katie toiled as a janitor to keep her family afloat. The book chronicles, the Nolan's family's life from Katie and Johnny's courtship through Francie and Neely's childhood and young adulthood moments, both big and small from France. He's life illustrate the struggle of a second generation American and her family's attempts to lift themselves from the hard grind of poverty. Francie is bookish and observant and fiercely desires an education. Her life is filled with the influences of her mother, her aunts, especially her aunt Sissy and her grandmother. She and her family persevere through hardship and trauma. The tree referenced in the title of the book grows in the sidewalk near the Nolan's home carrying on even after being burned. It symbolizes not just the strength of Francie, but that of her whole family.

Hannah 3:30

So I was going to give a brief author bio, and it seems worth noting that, um, here, since the novel A Tree Grows in Brooklyn is, seems to be semi-autobiographical even though it's, uh, fiction, Betty Smith's life really resembles Francy Nolan's life. A good deal. Betty Smith was born Elizabeth Lillian Wehner on December 15th, 1896, uh, five years before Francie Nolan. Um, she was born in Brooklyn, New York City to Catherine Hummel and John Wehner. Her father John died when Betty/Elizabeth was still just a child and Catherine remarried to a man named Michael. And I'm not sure if it's pronounced Kee-OH or Kee-OHG, so I'm guessing, but it's spelled K E O G H. Um, Betty had a younger brother, William and a younger sister, Regina. Her parents were both German immigrants and Betty was not a virus extraction as is sometimes reported. This uh, mistake may stem from the fact that her stepfather was Irish. Some sources report that her brother and sister took Kee-OH or Kee-OHG as their last name, but Betty did not as she was older and said she did take Kee-OH or Kee-OHGwas her last name. So I'm not really sure where the truth lies there. It is a little bit difficult to accurately assess out some of the details of Betty Smith life as the life of her character in, um, you know, her character Francie Nolan seems to have blurred a little bit with Betty Smith's actual life in the popular imagination. However, uh, there are some things that we can be pretty certain of like the protagonist of the book she is most known for. Betty grew up in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, and shared a December 15th birthday with Francie. Like Francie. Betty was forced to quit school after eighth grade so she could help support her impoverished family. She would not obtain a high school or a college education despite her affinity for writing. However, she did enroll in writing classes later on in life at the University of Michigan where her husband, George H. E. Smith attended law school, although she did not receive a degree, she did in 1931 win the university's, Avery Hopwood award and a thousand dollars as a prize for her play, Francie Nolan, Betty and George, then moved to New Haven. Connecticut. B etty continued to work on writing plays this time at the Yale school of drama. They next moved to Detroit, where Betty continued to write. Betty and George divorced in 1938. They had two children together, Nancy and Mary. In 1942, Betty submitted a manuscript in progress to a Harper and Brothers writing contest. And based on editor feedback, submitted it for publication as A Tree Grows in Brooklyn in 1943, the novel was a resounding success and sold many copies, changing Betty's life forever. It was adapted into a movie in 1945 and a musical in 1951. Betty Smith wrote three more novels after A Tree Grows in Brooklyn: Tomorrow Will Be Better, 1948, Maggie Now, 1958 and Joy in the Morning, 1963. She married twice more, to n ewspaperman, Joseph Piper Jones in 1943 and later to Robert Finch in 1957, he died two years later. In her later years, Betty taught creative writing at the University of North Carolina. She died on January 17th, 1972 at age 75 after becoming ill with pneumonia.

Kelsey 6:54

And now it's time for your favorite segment where each episode, our Intrepid researcher will enchant us with scintillating factoids related to our book. It's time to dive in and explore Ella's Ephemera

Ella 7:06

Hi there everyone. I'm Ella. And this is my Ephemera, the part of the podcast where I tell you about some of the neat things I've learned while doing research. Today, I want to tell you about ASEs or Armed Services Editions. ASE's were small paperback books of fiction and nonfiction that were distributed in the American military during World War Two. Molly Gupton Manning describes them in her book, When Books Went to War as quote,"miniature paperback books that were small enough that they could fit in a pocket". They're about the size of a smartphone and the paper that they were printed was about the strength of newsprint. But why am I telling you about throwaway paperbacks from the 1940s? Well, A Tree Grows in Brooklyn was actually one of the most popular Armed Services Edition books shipped during that time period. The author stated that she received 10 times more fan mail from soldiers than she did from civilians. And most of the letters said that reading the book felt like reading about home. Smith, estimated that she received four letters a day from servicemen who thanked her for reminding them of home and told her that her book served as a powerful reminder of why they were fighting. The original publication printed about 50,000 copies, but was quickly reprinted as part of a later series, because demand was so high. Thanks for joining me on this deep dive I'm Ella, and this was my ephemera. Okay. So let's

Heather 8:41

Okay. So let's kick off our discussion, ladies. How did this book hold up, looking at this with a modern lens. Do we still consider it a classic? Are there issues with it? What do you guys think?

Kelsey 8:52

There's, it's such a big book. There's so much to dive into. I mean, one of the biggest things that stood out for me and that I, that I think about when I think about how it actually held up is, you know, thinking about how it handles race and, you know, different cultures. And, um, what I think is so about this book is that I think she very intentionally wants to talk about race and, um, different cultures in the book and very clearly has a message that we should be more accepting and inclusive of people, but at the same time, she has some really off and not so great portrayals of certain people and also some portrayals that were questionable. Like I wasn't sure how to handle them. Um, so I think it's a little interesting that it's set in the early 1900s when, um, your country of origin was a much bigger deal. When you were coming from an immigrant from a European country, there were much more obvious distinctions between being Irish, being Italian, being Polish, um, than there are today. And I think, you know, right now we would pretty much code all of those folks as white. Um, and we're much more disconnected from that, you know, immigration status. But I think she spends a lot of time talking about and unpacking, the ways in which people had stereotypes and biases against each other, um, due to their country of origin. And I think that was really well done and really interesting and added a lot of nuance to, you know, any reader's understanding about why do we think this way about different people? How can we be more open-minded, you know, like I said, I feel like, you know, there's not great portrayals of Asian people in this book. The way that Jewish people are talked about, I think was intended to be inclusive, but I'm not clear on if it is the language she used was actually like, it felt kind of othering in an attempt to be inclusive. So yeah. I don't know murky feelings about this. I feel like

Dalia 10:27

No. Yeah. I agree. Especially when it comes to how they talk about Jewish people. I, I think, and I know we had talked about this a little bit too. It's just how everything is like the Jew market and like, you know, the Jew baker and today we would say Jewish. So that's like a big, a big thing of how we're, we're kind of deciphering. Well, is it offensive? Is it just the language that was used? You know, is it really up to us to say, is it okay or is it not okay? And especially with, like, you had to Kelsey, the depiction of the Asian characters and how like even she wore the mask and it wasn't necessarily in a positive light, um, and even the way she spoke about, you know, the Asian gentleman, it just now, I don't think we would use use the same language. It's a little bit tricky, reading it and trying to see how does it hold up to today with that language used.

Hannah 11:16

I agree with everything you both said, I thought that she tried really hard to portray things richly, and I think she was attempting to be inclusive, like you were saying, Kelsey, but I found the, like the language that was used, you know, with other people in the book, like the people of Asian descent or the Jewish people really jarring to read, it was, it was hard to, you know, it kind of threw me out of the book. I had to stop and think, okay. You know, I'm trying to think about it, you know, and it's, uh, in it's time, but it definitely made me want to do more research and, um, into like the language. And it was, it was hard to get through some of the things that, uh, she was that she was writing.

Heather 11:57

And I think that it's really important to consider sort of context for this one. Um, you know, we're, we're going back a lot farther in history than we have, um, with say Harriet the Spy, which we covered last week. And I think it's probably, being written in 43, was pretty progressive, right? I think that at least for me reading it, the take home is that the othering and the stereotyping is negative. And we see Francie pushing back against that in a lot of ways, particularly with some of the Jewish characters in the book, um, you know, she talks about how beautiful Jewish women are when they're pregnant and the pride that they walk with and, and she aspires to that and then sort of denigrates herself in saying that like, well, you know, when the women, she knows, like in her tenement are pregnant, they, they know that they're just producing another Mick, which is a derogatory term for, for Irish Americans at the time. So I think that she does seem to, if we view Francie as sort of her avatar in the book, she seems to be trying to push against, you know, the language that's being used. You know, the, the boys picking on the Jewish child on this street. There's the instance where she's asking for the pickle and there's that sort of negative use of language there. And Betty Smith points out that Francie doesn't realize that it's even a bad word to her it's something that she, you know, just, uh, has infused with the joy she feels at, uh, getting a pickle at this particular establishment. And so I think there's some interesting play going on, at least in terms of the commentary that's sort of seeping in through Francie's growth in the book. Um, but yeah, it is it's jarring, you know, for us now, I think to read something that is full of basically ethnic slurs, even if that's authentic to the time. So yeah, that's a, that's a tough, a tough bit. Um, I do think that the context is really important though. And so I think that's been something that we talked about a little bit too, you know, the historical context and framework in which we read the book and like how much of that do you need going in for this book to make sense to stand up? What do you guys think about that? Do you feel like you need to come to the book with a lot of like understanding of the time period or not so much?/

Hannah 14:08

I mean, I think she does a lot of showing, like in the details, like, I don't feel overwhelmed with exposition about well these, how this is how things were, and this is how you did this. Like, I feel like you get so many detailed descriptions of going about your day and obtaining food and paying bills and, you know, the details of like, you know, using the gas for heat. That, I mean, it's hard to say like, uh, what do you need for that to make sense to you, but I think she really drops you into the world and you get a very strong sense of place and can maybe glean from the text what she's saying a lot of the time.

Dalia 14:41

Yeah. I think she paints a really vivid picture of the time. It's just when language comes into play, I think it could help to know that's how they spoke back then. Um, not even whether that's how they spoke back then, but those are just common terms and common things that even though we look at them as being like, wow, that's like jarring for me to read back then. And, you know, it's like a common thing that they would, you know, yell to each other across the street and not talking even about just, uh, um, racial terms, just day-to-day terms that they would use that we might not even be used to, um, or might not have ever heard before. Um, so I think maybe for certain readers who aren't used to books like this a nd this historical setting, it could be useful. U m, and I think when it comes to the racial terms, I think then it would also be useful just to kind of have that background on that time in America.

Heather 15:31

Yeah. And I wonder too, I mean, Hannah pointed out in her sort of background on the author, you know, we think so much of this as her lived experience in a lot of ways, um, you know, to greater or lesser degree, she grew up in Williamsburg, she was very much in sort of the same boat, even if maybe the specifics weren't the same she's of German stock, Francie is of Irish Austrian stock. But how much does it change sort of how we look at the book if we consider it as a piece of history or a historical piece rather than considering it historical fiction.

Kelsey 16:05

Yeah. I mean, I think, I think that's the question for me is like a work of historical fiction to me is intending to teach you about that time and provides context for you within the text that helps you under-make sense of something or understand something or get something. Whereas I really think, I mean, Betty Smith did write this a little bit more removed from that time period then like, it's not like she wrote it like the year after all of this happened, but I don't think she was writing it to say like, here's how to understand that world of the 1900s, where everything was so different. I really think it felt, it felt to me like she was like, this is just what life is like. And some things have changed, but like a lot of these things are still the same and we all lived through it. So we all know this is what happened. And so I think that's where I wonder if like someone reading it today who doesn't understand or doesn't know about the history of immigration in this country. Like doesn't know that so many people were coming in at that time and like how people lived and how there were these biases as people were much closer to their country of origin than we may be now. Like, I wonder if that would be confusing, but I, I, I am now just, just now thinking about there's the one scene in the book where she is in school and her teacher asks, you know, um, like, what are you like, what are you? And she says, I'm American. And the teacher's like really pushing her. And she says, no, my parents were born in Brooklyn. And that was like, whoa, like that was like very novel to the teacher that like anyone would have parents actually born in America. I definitely think it's a book of like a historical piece, not a historical fiction piece, but I think there are kind of those clues accidentally sprinkled in that helped make that context for you

Hannah 17:42

I m ean, I'm reminded, u m, but this, you know, this type of conversation in my research about the author came up, that she, u m, when she submitted it originally and w ere told that y ou should publish i t, the novel, she submitted it more as like a long manuscript, that was more, I think it was meant to be more n on-fiction. So, I mean, you know, w hat's, what's memoir and what's historical fiction. I think she must, she must have gone back and s aid, okay, what can I, I'm imagining her changing things. Okay. All right. This is, this is my story, but I'm also crafting into a work of fiction. So I'm changing some details without getting rid of the deep truths, I think she was drawn to convey. So I'm not quite sure how to categorize it. I mean, it feels very, i t feels both like historical fiction and also, you know, like, u h, u h, you know, an autobiography.

Heather 18:32

I was also doing some research on the time period and how true to life that would have been. So I wanted to give you guys a couple of quotes that I found from a historian Kirby Miller, who is one of the authorities on the Irish immigrant experience in the United States. And then maybe you guys can give me your take on how well that came through in the book. Um, he said that for working class Irish Americans, acute anxiety and severe deprivation were still things endured rather than remembered. And he characterized American born Irish as having a sense of homesickness and exile that was pervasive. And then another quote, accounts of Irish slum life in New York city revealed societies ravaged by chronic unemployment alcoholism and disease. And I think for me, those get told or shown rather, I guess this is more of a showing rather than a telling book. Um, you know, it is those little details, but I think that's something that at least that picture came through for me in reading the book. So like on that level, I felt like I could definitely see that it would be more memoir than, you know, a true fictional work. Like it's very infused with the author. It seems like, is it instructive about the time period?

Kelsey 19:48

I do feel like I felt like I was part of that. Like I felt very much like in that neighborhood in that time, but I think, well, I think it's interesting cuz I don't know that it's instructive about that time period. I think it's instructive about that place in that time period, very specifically. I don't know if that's different, but it feels different to me.

Heather 20:06

I don't know. I guess I'm thinking of it in the context that we often read books, like The Diary of Anne Frank, or we read The hiding place by Corrie Ten Boom as well. We give them to kids at a certain age and say, this is a good way to learn about the Holocaust, um, this is a good way to learn about the World War II time period. Is this the sort of thing we would give to a child to say, Hey, this is what, what you might take about depression era, New York via fiction rather than a history book. I don't know. I don't know broad enough to just because it is really specific to this European immigration in, uh, the early 1900s in New York. So I feel like if we want to talk about New York specifically then yes. But if we're going to talk about all of America during this period, I think you'd have to choose another maybe, but forward just Depression-era in New York, I think it would paint a good picture, um, it's definitely not a light read it. It really does go deeply into, you know, poverty, how alcoholism impacts that, um, you know, how the Irish ancestry, how that, you know, also impacts the alcoholism. And, um, and I think just going back to, um, the language, how we were talking about, I think it also shows the specific language that they used, you know, um, in New York at that time. So yeah. I don't know if it's broad enough to just to specifically be about just the depression era.

Kelsey 21:36

I think too, like the language that they use within the context of the story. Like, I completely agree with your assessment, Heather. I think, I think Francie feels those, those times when people are being offensive or insensitive to one another hurtful to one another and reacts to them and processes them. And like we, as the reader have a moment to be like, oh, they're discriminating against one another and that's not okay. So I, I think that is a learning experience for a child. And I think that is like, if I was giving this to a young reader, like I think that they, that is the kind of empathy building that we want literature to do. So I think I'm not necessarily concerned about them seeing like harmful stereotypes or language in those contexts, because I think those kinds of situations, like that's where you should be reading it and seeing it and being like, oh, words have an impact or that my actions have an impact. What worries me is things like we talked about with the Asian portrayals or there's some native American references that like, are kind of like we talked about in our previous episode, like just part of the casual language that like, I don't think Betty Smith realized could be offensive because no, one's really talking about racism against at least in white communities, racism against native people or Chinese people. And those kinds of things are always what worries me a little bit, because they're not reacted to, and they're not addressed because no one really thought it was an issue. So like when she wears the mask, right? Like those are the kinds of things that I kind of worry about. And like, if I, I think that this book has a lot of nuance and a lot of conversation that I think would be worth a child reading and unpacking and understanding, but I think I would need to provide like a, like a content warning to say, Hey, like these things are in here too, and they're not okay. And like, they, they didn't really, like at this time, people weren't really thinking about that, but today we need to be aware that like you can't where someone's race as a costume and you can't like go around like chanting, like tribe things about people who aren't Native American and like, assume that that's okay. Like the politician, I don't know what was going on with that. So like, I think, I think that's what always makes me a little uncomfortable with books like that. Especially with younger readers who don't have the context have already been like, okay, no, that's not okay. And that's not like, or if I am like a Chinese child reading this book and seeing like, oh, they wore a yellow mask to be me. Like, that's like, people are allowed to do that. Like, that's what, that's what worries me a little bit with all of these books. As we look back on them.\

Hannah 24:05

Them, I keep almost wanting to see like an annotated version, which I don't know. Like I know that they published annotated versions of like classic texts, like Sherlock Holmes or Pride and Prejudice. And I don't know, I don't know how much that detracts from like the flow of reading a book. But like you were saying, there's some things where like, they're sort of examined at least partially, um, you know, in, in the text. And then there are the moments that are just, you know, casual moments of things that maybe needed to be examined, but just aren't on the, they weren't on Betty Smith's, uh, radar, as we need to like, you know, note this and have thought about it, you know, almost makes me think that, you know, like giving this to someone, it, it feels like it should come with, if not an annotation, a conversation at least about certain parts, but how do you do that in a way that doesn't detract from like, you know, the joy of just sitting and reading a book, you know, privately all the way through, uh, without, um, if that stopping to like look up historical details that maybe aren't what, you know, the reader wants to do at that moment.

Kelsey 25:07

Yeah

Dalia 25:07

Yeah. I think one thing with this as I'm kind of thinking is Francie is such a sensitive, smart, young girl that as you read through the situations, either that she witnesses of it, she's on herself. You usually get this in her mind kind of thought process of that's not fair. That's not right. But then like when you get to the mask situation, she doesn't know, and it's not that she's doing it purposely to necessarily offend someone it's like, like you said, Kelsey, they weren't talking about that back then. And I think if you were to give this to a child, I think, I think it could be good for them to read it, but I think there definitely, like you said, there definitely needs to be a conversation afterwards to say, you know, this is what was done back then, but this is not what we do now. This is not okay. Um, but yeah, I think she was such a sensitive child to certain situations and other people's, um, troubles. And she was empathetic that I think in her mind, you get a lot of, um, just, that's not right type of, um, attitude, attitude, where she wants to make things right. And she wants to learn and to be better.

Heather 26:16

So I wanted to also take a little bit of time to talk about the representations of womanhood in this book. Part of the reason that we were doing this pod was to look at books that resonate with girls or with women. Um, what do we think about this book? Is it feminist? Is it, uh, a strong book in terms of the depiction of women in the book? I

Kelsey 26:36

I think it's super feminist. I think there are such a wide range of like what it means to be a woman, especially if, even if you just look at the three sisters, right? So you have Katie, who's like this kind of strong, like I I'm, I've got everything under control and I don't need anyone like kind of all three sisters like this, but especially Katie, like whatever happens, I'll deal with it. I'll figure it out. Not only that, but I'm going to create this like rich, full, joyful life for my kids. Even while we're struggling under poverty. Like you have that kind of representation. You have Sissy. Who's very much like my body, my rules, I'm going to do whatever I want. I'm going to have relationships with whatever many men I want. I don't care about marriage or divorce. Like I'm going to, like, I want a kid and I'm going to do whatever I need to do to make that happen. And no one really judges her for it. Like there are some like side comments, but like in the grand scheme of things, the message really is like, Sissy is cool because she has her own like rulebook that she plays by. And then you have Evie who who's kind of like the more traditional quote unquote traditional woman, right? Like she wants to be a wife to Willie. And she kinda like when he, she does kind of jump in on when he like, uh, loses his job or has the issue with the horse. But, but like, she doesn't really want to take over for him. She just kinda like, all right, I'll fill in. And like, I'll do it in my own, like kind of sensitive woman way. But then when he can come back, like I'm not going to take that spot,'cause I'd rather have a different role. And none of those things are judged and you see all different kinds of women throughout the book. Um, you know, the girl who gets pregnant out of wedlock and like, you see how through Francie's eyes, how she's treated and kind of a critique of like, why are we judging women for this happening when you know, um, all of these women have been in different situations. It just wasn't made public. So it's kind of like a critique too, of like how women can kind of, and this is a generalization, but like women often can kind of like gang up on one another and kind of create these like cliques or, you know, outcast each other. Um, and then just another thing that I like too is like, there's a couple of times throughout, like Francie says she doesn't want to be friends with women. And I think Katie Nolan says it too, like sucks to be friends with women, which is kind of a cliche, but then I appreciate that it kind of comes back around and Francie realizes like, oh, I was judging these women just the way I saw like other women judge each other. And like all her, she could have had friends the whole time at school had she just kind of opened her mind and not assumed all women are the same or evil or whatever- she assumptions she made. So I feel like it was really like a very complicated portrayal of like all the different kinds of things that you deal with when you are a woman. And you're like navigating the world, like all the different kinds of ways to be and issues you struggle with. I really, I thought it was really well done.

Hannah 29:27

You mentioned that there was a complexity. And I think for me, that's the complex portrayals of, you know, women had throughout the book is what makes it feminist to me because I mean, they're all strong. Like pretty much everyone in this book is strong. Like kind of have to be whether or not they want to be. It seems, but you know, you see, I mean, there's this there's complexity with, uh, um, every, a woman we see in this book close-up and I mean, there's that whole, like, you know, oh, we need more strong female characters. It's like, well, okay, sure. But like, you know, for me complex female characters is far more compelling and important. Strong will be a part of that if you allow for complexity.

Dalia 30:06

Yeah. I definitely have to agree. I do think it's a lot more feminist than you might kind of expect, especially going into a n ovel t hat is considered a classic. Um, when I was, when I was younger and I read it, I t h- I do remember that much of, I thought it was very like, oh, I like Francie. I like Francie. Like she, you know, she didn't really care about what others really said, but as an adult reading it, rereading it. I see, like, especially Sissy, like you said, Kelsey, like, she did not care. Like she got married at 14. She was like, I'm g onna have this baby. I'm g onna do whatever I need to do to have a baby. She, you know, u m, when she wasn't able to get divorced because, u m, of the Catholic faith, she was like, okay, I'm going to go and still get me another husband,

Heather 30:50

Like, she just went straight to bigamy[laughter].

Dalia 30:53

She was like, okay,

Kelsey 30:54

This is fine.

Heather 30:55

Sissy's wild. She's working in a condom factory. She's like multi-time bigamous she is, you know,

Dalia 31:02

Queen of the day.

Heather 31:04

Adopting babies informally off the street. Like she.

Hannah 31:07

She's k inda awesome.

Heather 31:09

She was like, go get it,

Dalia 31:11

Like female character in this, you know, even Katie, um, her sister would make little comments about her saying, oh, you shouldn't tell Francie this and that. And then Katie would catch herself and even say, how can I judge her? And she's done so much for us. And she's helped us so much. And she's doing so much in her life. Like even she had to stop herself, um, from judging her own sister. And I never heard their mother ever say anything about negative about them. They just were these strong women who would do whatever they need at, for their families and want it to make sure that their children had the best possible lives. And they never let men, um, you know, stop them from that. And they never really let anybody tell them no. And if someone told them, no, they would just find out another way to do it so they could provide for their families. And for themselves.

Kelsey 31:59

I just like, love the sheer confidence of sissy. Just being like, yes, I'm pregnant when everyone is like, you're not, you're not pregnant. Like, no. Yeah. I, I am pregnant. And just committing to the story to the point that everyone else was like, okay, you're pregnant.

Heather 32:14

But yeah, everyone Just went along with it. Cause she's like, I'm carrying in the back.

Kelsey 32:20

Or her mom said she's carrying it in her head.

Hannah 32:24

And that her husband just throws up her hands and is like, alright!

Heather 32:27

Steve gave up Like, okay. Um, and I liked that too, because you know, in some ways we have Sissy presented as sort of the femme fatale of the book. Right. She always has a guy on the go, but she doesn't need a man. Right. Like, and, and she seems really aware of that. Right. And I think so she just kind of discards guys right and left until the end. And then she finally finds a guy that's like able to keep up with her and then she's like, okay, yeah, you're on my level. I'm going to actually make this work now. Um, which I think is an interesting twist to it. Again, she's not one note at all, but like even some of the, the side characters of the women that aren't fleshed out as much like Grandma Rommely, she's presented as incredibly strong, right. She's made it through this very abusive sounding marriage and has been much beleaguered, but she's instilled in all of her daughters, this wonderful sense of survival, these, you know, strong sort of imperatives to like get education for yourself, you know, do better than me. I can't read, but your children must be able to read, read the Bible, read Shakespeare to them every night, save money, buy land. Like she's really, really imparted this wisdom to them that works ultimately like that is the saving grace for the Nolans how many times that they've had the star bank and they've put aside and put aside and Katie goes without and goes without to put that extra penny in the cup. And I think that showing that spectrum, yeah, I think it is really a very compelling piece of feminist literature in a lot of ways, because basically every woman that's presented, you know, more than just in passing, like even the side characters, Flossie Gaddis as well, you know, they feel so real. And they, they feel like real people and fully realized women and very different from each other, very distinct. But you know, just a lot of nuance there. A lot of heart, it shows a lot of ways to be a woman in a time where probably there was a lot of, I guess, push-back on different ways to be a woman. You know, I think it was more of a one note kind of thing that was the, that came through in a lot of things.

Kelsey 34:41

I think that's what impressed me the most is like thinking about when this was written and seeing how much acceptance and love there is for all these different representations of women. I, I don't think that I would have expected it to be quite as like truly loving of all these different women and all these different ways.

Hannah 35:00

I'm sorry, go ahead, Dalia. Oh, I was just going to say real quickly. Um, you were talking about the Rommely woman I'm reminded of when Johnny was telling Katie he's like you Rommely women, you are too deep for me.

Dalia 35:14

No. Yeah. When you brought up, um, the grandmother kind of what I felt was like a very quiet feminist moment was when she made sure that her daughters could not speak German so they could not speak to their father. Um, because she knew if they did, he would have convinced them to never get married, to stay at home and to always give him their money. And I think, you know, she knew that and she was like, no, my girls will speak. English are not going to talk to their father. He's not going to trap them at home. They're going to live their own lives. They're going to work for themselves. And I think that was really kind of showed just the true strength of the Rommely women. It was just the mother in the beginning being like my girls are going to be my girls, they're going to live their lives. However they like,

Heather 35:59

Yeah, it's, it's her protecting them from him. And it's sort of all of those steps along the way you see that happening. Then Katie is sort of trying to protect the kids from Johnny as well by sort of reframing it as he's sick. He's not an alcoholic. He's, you know, he's doing his best. Um, and then I think one of the themes that sort of carries through is that you read the book and initially you're, you're like, oh, you know, Francie her relationships with her dad. Like that's the bond, but ultimately Francie's a Rommely woman, a hundred percent, she's got that same steel that her mom and her aunts and her grandmother all have, it comes out in different ways. You know, not everybody is Katie shooting the child molester in the hall, but it's that fierce, you know, protection of your loved ones. It's the sort of having that romantic streak, even if occasionally gets you into trouble, it's Francie falling for Lee. Like Katie fell for Johnny even knowing, eh, this is a mistake, but then being able to make the best of that situation. Um, I think, yeah, it's a really compelling look at womanhood. I mean, that's really what the book is. It's a book about women.

Kelsey 37:14

Yeah. Yeah. I just, I just have to say, I love Katie Nolan so much. Like she's like now one of my favorite characters in literature, like I just admired her so much because the situation that they're in, I would not blame any single person for just becoming bitter and angry. Right? Like she, yes, Johnny is like a very charming dude, but like let's lets her down time and time again. She has to like work backbreaking hours from day to night to do just keep their family, like having like a piece of bread at night. And like, not only does she, like not ever become bitter, but like, she truly does try to keep like the joy and like the pleasant moments of life present in their life. Like she lets Kate- Francie half her weekly cup of coffee that she just sniffs and pours down the drain. And like, that's you're, like, you're allowed to have some luxuries in your life. You don't have to like drink every last drop just because, you know, we couldn't afford it. Like, and I just think, I just like really loved her so much. And, um, yeah. She's awesome.

Heather 38:20

Awesome. Yeah. She's wonderful. I, and I wanted the best for her in her new marriage. I've like, finally, she's going to get a break. Cause yeah. I mean, it is, it's, it's frustrating at times and you can feel sort of that Francie s irritated with her for not being kinder to Johnny. And it's like, her hands are rubbed raw while he's occasionally being a singing waiter. Is that a thing anymore? I wish it was, I've never seen a singing waiter, but apparently it was enough of a thing that they had a union for them. So like, I kind of am like, does this exist somewhere?

Hannah 38:54

I want to know that too.

Dalia 38:55

It ended with Johnny[Laughter].

Heather 38:55

Johnny was the last singing waiter ever!

Speaker 1 39:04

Yeah. Um, and then I think the last thing that we wanted to talk about is would we give this book to a child today? If so, which child? Well, I'll start by saying, I did give this book to my children. Um, you know, just like my mom gave it to me and um, I read it very young, uh, and I, I think every time I've, re-read, it I've taken more from it and it's, you know, it's a very fluid and sort of organic book for me in the way that good literature should be. I think I feel pretty comfortable giving it to a kid. Um, particularly if we're talking about a child that's Francie's age or older, um, it will have to be the right kid. You know, it's a big book. It's, you know, it's a, Bildungsroman about Depression era Brooklyn. That's not going to be the right sweet spot for every single kid. But I, I have given it to kids in the library before that I thought they were that kid and I feel like it's hit well for them. So how do you guys feel about that.

Dalia 40:05

After much deliberation, I'm going to go, I'm going to, I'm going to agree with you. I'm going to say yes, because I read it at nine. Granted, I was reading a lot of different types of books at most nine year olds aren't reading. Um, but in this day and age, I think kids are gonna read whatever they want to read. And they're going to read so much that their parents might not know about that. It's worth that they would read this. That's actually going to be good for them. Hopefully. Um, I think mostly more young girls are going to be drawn to this rather than young boys. I think any, any child can read this, I'm definitely not putting a gender on it, but I do think most younger girls are going to be more drawn to it because it's about the coming of age of a young girl. But yeah, I think, I think this is definitely okay for a child to read, but again, a child that's used to reading books in this historical context and books that are this long. Um, but as long as they're good with that then yeah, I think it's okay.

Kelsey 41:00

I mean, I, I think So. I think I kind of raised this question, right. Because I did not read this as a child and reading and as an adult, I was like, okay, first of all, we spent a lot of time in the head of adults who like, I don't, I, I just, for some reason don't feel like most kids like are interested in that. Like, it's pretty rare for a children's book to spend that much time focusing on adult problems. And I definitely, and I think all of us were kids who read like way outside of our, like what was prescribed for children. So like, I definitely don't think it's not that I think no kid would be interested in it, but like, we're kind of saying, I don't think it's really a children's book in the same way that like many other children's books are. I don't think it's like in the line of children's books. It also, I don't want to be a prudish, but like has a lot of sex in it. And it has a lot of like, uh, mature topics that I think, I think we've kind of talked about like probably just go over kids' head when they're reading it, but like, just make me feel like it wasn't written for kids necessarily, even though it's from the perspective of a child that said, I agree. I think there are definitely kids who especially like really for me, this book is about the love of reading and the love of learning and writing and like engaging with words. And actually I wanted to just highlight, like I was listening to a lot of this as an audio book and then I'd go back and kind of highlight passages that I loved. And there's, um, the start of chapter 22, when Francie first learns how to read is like the most beautiful description I've ever heard of someone learning to read. And so eloquently captures, um, she says, oh, magic hour when child first knows it can read printed words. And then she describes, you know, Francie had been kind of spelling the word and sounding each letter and kind of chugging chugging through. And then just one day she looked at the word and it was horse and she just, it was horse. And then all of a sudden the next word was running and it was like, the words just like appeared. And it was so magical. And like, I just think there's a lot of descriptions like that throughout the book that are like, I could see resonating with the kid, but it's just funny as an adult reading this and being like, this feels like a book for it. This feels like a book for grownups. So I think that kind of, with some of the context that I described earlier that I would want to just provide before I just handed it over to a kid, um, I definitely think like a really, uh, mature, like really voracious reader. I could see really loving and getting a lot out of it. This book.

Hannah 43:27

Yeah. I think I, I would recommend this, um, I guess as wearing my librarian hat too. Like you said, Kelsey, like a mature reader and they, you know, maybe that means they'd be more high school. Maybe it means they'd be a little younger. I think it would depend, I think I'd want to have enough of a relationship with that reader to like, have a sense of the fact that it might appeal to them. Um, I feel like I keep thinking as I read this, as I read this book again, that if somebody, you know, loved historical fiction and they loved, they were really hungry for historical fiction and or classics. Um, I feel like this would be a really great readalike for, um, the Emily of New Moon series, which is like L. M. Montgomery's a less well-known series is a better writer. Um, I mean, like I could see, I could see recommending this. Um, you know, I think it probably wouldn't come up a lot, but I would recommend it to the right reader if, uh, if it was someone that I knew in my personal life, very well, like, you know, a child of mine, like a, uh, you know, uh, a friend's child who I knew, you know, knew, would be interested in the content, would be able to handle. It would be able to have conversations with someone or me about the content. I would feel far more inclined to recommend to them. So I think, I mean, that's just a long way of saying it depends, but yeah, I would recommend it to the right reader.

Heather 44:45

It's interesting that you brought up the readalikes. And I think that, you know, we often think of things as sort of a natural like trajectory. Like if a kid liked Little House on the Prairie and the Laura Ingalls Wilder books. Okay. Maybe they also like Anne of Green Gables. This seems to make sense in that sort of lineage. But I was thinking more about going backwards from more contemporary books that kids might enjoy, who then would also like this book, you know, and I think of a book like Watsons Go to Birmingham or, um, even something like, uh, you know, PSB 11, where there is a work of historical fiction and the kids grasp onto, Hey, this is foreign, but I still see myself in this. Right? Like this is anachronistic, but that's kind of cool. And those rich details. So I think like other writers who capture history in that way, any of the like Laurie Halse Anderson books, like those kids, I feel like might like this book as well as a regression, almost like the kind of kid that's already primed for. Yeah. I like to sit in another time period and, you know, even like consider into American girls, which I think we're going to probably get to in future episodes. Like this might hit really well for them because the details are so rich. Like I think it's just so vibrant. The book feels very alive to me. So you're, to me, good writing is good writing to some degree. And I feel that that resonates with, with kids who love language and who love words like Francie you know? So it's still, it's still a winner to me. I think that I don't, I don't think I'm going to overthink the recommendation too much in the future. I think I would still hand it to a kid.

Kelsey 46:25

All right. Well, coming up, we're going to get an expert's take on an important aspect of this novel that is not often discussed, but first we're going to pay some bills,

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Heather 47:17

So now let's talk to someone who actually knows something about tenement housing.

Deni Tavares 47:23

Hi Heather, um, thank you for inviting me. I'm County Council member and Prince George's County Vice Chair Deni Taveres. I represent District 2. And in my capacity as Vice Chair, I represent the whole county.

Heather 47:38

We are thrilled to have you on the podcast today, as we take a deep dive into A Tree Grows in Brooklyn. So in the book, the tenements and neighborhood of Williamsburg, Brooklyn in 1912, come to life almost as a distinct character. Betty Smith offers vivid description of the mix of sounds and smells and colors that are part of the multi-ethnic neighborhood Francie lives in. I know you grew up in New York. Does this description ring true or resonate with how you experienced your neighborhood as a child?

Deni Tavares 48:10

Um, well it reading the caption, um, I would say yes and no. Uh, uh, we, we were, um, we were really, we, weren't not as diverse we as, as the, maybe 1920, maybe 1912, Brooklyn, we were basically African-Americans and Latinos in where I grew up in Harlem. And, um, and I did enjoy the people, the sounds, the music, um, you know, the smells in terms of the great food that came out of all the restaurants. I mean, there is no shortage of good food in New York, um, at all, even not even from a hole in the wall, it's like the best food you've ever had. And I just love like the people sitting down playing dominoes, you know, in the middle of, um, the islands in the street and in on Broadway. And, but I also grew up so on that that's the positive side, right? But on the, on the more negative side, I also grew up in a New York that was also at the height of the crack epidemic and at the height of AIDS. And so we, we, you know, while I saw the children playing, you know, at the water at the water pumps at the, you know, at the fire hydrants, and that was a lot of fun, you know, and paying and people playing baseball in the middle of the street. It was also real that we had drug dealers standing almost at every single block in all four corners. And, and the elicit activity happening in a lot of the crack buildings that primarily that I grew up when, um, you saw the negativity of how that negatively affected communities like mine, the abuse and addiction of drugs and how that drove people to do certain things. And you seen people shoot up, urinate in buildings, you know, you know, the gun violence that comes with that, you know, and so on. And, and then you see the detir-. I mean, we could talk about the deterioration of, of solely affordable housing and the boarded up buildings all around us. So it's, it was, it was both and negative, but I mean, for somebody who didn't know better, um, you always were protected in that, in that, in that sphere, if you came from a, a solid house where you knew you have somebody there every day at the end of your school day. And so for those that have stable lives, it was a protected environment. You didn't know, like, like people often say, oh, you didn't know you were poor when you grew up, because you had everything you needed, you had your three meals. And so those are kind of things that you kind of, you kind of those senses, it's only until you step out and you see from outside that you're like, oh, wow, I survived that.

Heather 51:23

It's interesting to hear you say that, because I think, you know, in spite of this book being almost a hundred years before your childhood, Francie seems to have that same dichotomy, u h, she has this wonderful, strong female set of relatives with her mom and her aunts and her grandmother. But her neighborhood is really struggling with poverty and alcoholism. Francie actually a person tries to assault her at one point and her mother physically has to intervene to protect her. But at the same time, she has these sort of vivid connections to her community, a very like rich sensory experience of living there and being part of her neighborhood, which like you said, the positivity and the negativity and that's all part of her childhood.

Deni Tavares 52:12

Yeah. They're headed there, hand in hand and is interesting, uh, you should mention that because, I mean, I, I remember being in precarious situations, there was like, I remember when I was 12 years old and I was going to, I mean, I had like my family, I had like at least three or four family members that lived all on the same block in different apartments. So it was just like me jumping into my grandmother and my aunt going to my cousins go-you know, it was like, we all lived like in the same neighborhood and even in the same building then. And, uh, I was walking to one of my aunts places down the street. And I remember that I was in like a short t-shirt and shorts and I remembered this thing, totally. This man approaching me, asking me, oh, can I show him where a supermarket was or a grocery store, a bodega. And I'm like, if you know, New York City, there was a bodega, they got at every single corner, you don't need to go anywhere. And then the man was dressed in a fur coat in the summer with, with, uh, with this round top hat which anybody who's ever read, the pimp bills, this is a pimp, but I had never seen that in my life. I had never encountered that, but I, my body says came on really quick. This is a man you've got to run away from and you got to get away because this man came to hunt, you know? And so, and so I was streetwise enough to protect myself from that kind of incident or, or incidents where you, you sense that somebody was trying to do you harm, you know, sexually molest you or something to that nature, even from, even from trusted individuals in the community. And, and so in that sense, I was able to always be protective and always, you know, be respectful. But at the same time, no, no, I'm going back home and that's okay. But thank you. But no, um, and so, so I was able, but there are some people who, you know, who, whose lives were traumatized because they didn't maybe have the same sense of protection or, you know, or awareness of what was going on. And so it's sad, but it's, it is real.

Heather 54:40

Absolutely. Another issue in the book, um, that I wanted to talk to you about is public education. So that's a social issue. Tackled in the book. Francie initially goes to her neighborhood public school, which Smith described that quote, 3000 children crowded into this ugly brutalizing school that had facilities for only 1000 later on. She sees this other school in a more affluent neighborhood and kind of falls in love with this school. She wants to go there. Her dad falsifies her address so that she can transfer. Does the neighborhood, a child grows up in still have impacts on educational outcomes and how much progress do you think we've made in the last hundred years in terms of equitable access to education?

Deni Tavares 55:27

Now that's a question for you.

Heather 55:29

Asking t he big questions here.

Deni Tavares 55:31

You are. I mean, I can, I can share with you my experience.

Ella 55:36

Wow. What a great conversation. I could listen to them forever. Couldn't you? Well, you're in luck. We'll be releasing the full discussion as a bonus episode next week. Wait, what's that? You can't wait until then click the link in the episode description to check it out early on our blog.

Hannah 55:53

Okay. So onto something far more frivolous, we are going to take a Buzzfeed quiz together and this quiz is called What Type of Tree Are You? All right. So, uh, question one. What do you do in your free time? And, oh, and I forgot to say we're going to be taking this, um, as if we are Francie, we can find out what type of tree Francie would be.

Heather 56:16

She is not the tree of heaven for this quiz. I don't think she's gonna be a different kind of tree.

Hannah 56:22

We'll find out at the end of this quiz. Um, okay. So what do you do in your free time? And our choices are sleep. Hang out with friends, watch Netflix or read.

Heather 56:32

This one's a no brainer,

Kelsey 56:36

Right? She's going to read.

Dalia 56:39

She did love Netflix though[Laughter]

Hannah 56:42

All right. I think we're all in agreement that it would have been read. Next question. Whose music do you enjoy the most? Our choices are Ariana Grande, Harry Styles, Brendon Urie, or Queen. I don't know how to approach this question for Francie.

Heather 56:56

So I'm going to say that Francie loved Johnny's music. So we should find the person who was the most similar to Johnny in style. And I would go with Harry Styles for that as being more of a like, okay, he can do ballads and stuff somehow I don't see Francie as a big like, Panic! At the Disco fan.

Kelsey 57:17

No, I don't think B rendon U rie i s going to be the one. I w as, I was leaning a little towards Queen j ust, but maybe that's just because they're like the oldest group on the list, but like, I kind of do like t he, the Harry Styles thing, because I, he has some like real like jazzy k ind o f R&B k ind o f numbers that I could see Johnny doing. U m, so I could, I could lean that way. Or maybe Queen.

Dalia 57:40

I could see Harry Styles being a singing waiter. So.

Heather 57:42

So I agree. I, he probably has been a singing waiter, if that exists.

Dalia 57:46

That I can see. I'm going to say Harry's Styles.

Kelsey 57:50

A ll r ight. I think we're going Harry Styles.

Hannah 57:51

I'm going to have to bow to all of your opinions. Cause I couldn't tell you what Harry Styles or Brendon Urie have done. So let's Harry Styles.

Dalia 57:58

If it makes you feel any better, I didn't even know who Brendon Urie was until she said Panic! At the Disco.

Hannah 58:02

Okay, I do feel better. I was like, oh no, I'm the most ignorant in the room here.

Dalia 58:09

Until Heather said Panic! at the Disco as like, oh, okay.

Hannah 58:10

Okay. Is that guy I have heard Panic!at the Disco.

Heather 58:13

We had such high hopes for this quiz.[Laughter].

Hannah 58:17

A ll r ight. So Harry Styles. Yes. Harry Styles. Next question. Oh dear. I'm going to have to do some describing here because the question is, well, not a question. Choose a hairstyle and we have four pictures of four different hairstyles. Although they're not all as different as maybe they're supposed to be. Our first one is a woman standing in what looks like a forest. She has long wavy hair down her back. The, u h, second one is a, a short s emi stacked, a dyed red bob, third is another woman with long wavy hair, but this o ne's standing in a field. And our final choice is a woman with a ball cap on. And she has a s lightly longer, u h, bob.

Dalia 59:07

Didn't she always want a bob and she backed her mama.

Heather 59:10

She did. She wanted to do the short hair because that was coming into vogue at the time. So,

Kelsey 59:18

But I don't think she would want like a red bob.

Dalia 59:21

Yeah. I think she would have been a little more subdued than that, but I also don't think she would wear a baseball cap.

Kelsey 59:25

Would she?

Heather 59:26

Yeah. I don't think she would either. I think the lob is too long.'Cause like we're talking like flapper era.

Kelsey 59:34

She went[inaudible] short.

Heather 59:36

It's short. I would go with that. Especially since the other two are basically the same lady. Just in different places.

Hannah 59:44

Lady in a forest, lady in a field.

Kelsey 59:47

She definitely didn't want long hair.

Heather 59:48

No.

Kelsey 59:48

I'm s ure.

Hannah 59:49

She did not.

Kelsey 59:50

All right. short

Heather 59:51

Short. So short bob.

Hannah 59:52

Short bob. Alright. What's your favorite color: choices are yellow. pink, green, and blue.

Dalia 59:59

I'm going to say definitely not pink. I don't think she was a pink girl.

Hannah 1:00:03

I agree.

Heather 1:00:04

I agree. I'm leaning towards green because I think- wasn't Johnny's like union, like something was green, his apron, his union...button

Kelsey 1:00:14

I think his pin was, was it green or blue?

Heather 1:00:17

Oh

Dalia 1:00:18

I thought it was navy.

Hannah 1:00:19

I can't remember

Dalia 1:00:20

I might be wrong.

Heather 1:00:20

Katie gets a green hat. Right.? The hat that Katie gets his mom.

Kelsey 1:00:25

Yeah,

Hannah 1:00:25

The moss green hat

Kelsey 1:00:27

I think green. Money's green.

Heather 1:00:29

Money is green, tree of heaven: green[laughter].

Kelsey 1:00:32

Leaves are green. Yeah.

Hannah 1:00:34

Green. Okay. How would your friends describe you? Smart, pretty, basic or funny?

Heather 1:00:41

What friends?

Kelsey 1:00:45

[Laughing] It's a very good p oint.

Heather 1:00:46

Francie is short on friends. By friends, we mean how would her family members describe her?

Kelsey 1:00:52

How would Neely describe you?

Heather 1:00:53

How would Ben describe you?

Kelsey 1:00:56

Oh, she does have Ben. That's true

Heather 1:00:58

She's got Ben.

Dalia 1:00:58

Yeah. Don't take Ben away from her. Kelsey.

Heather 1:01:01

She sorta has some friends at work, I guess.

Kelsey 1:01:04

Eventually. Yeah.

Dalia 1:01:05

At the first job, where they make, w hen she's making the flowers.

Hannah 1:01:09

They wouldn't talk to her until she laughed

Kelsey 1:01:12

They wouldn't stop making fun of her until.

Hannah 1:01:14

Ah, okay.

Kelsey 1:01:15

And then they kept making fun of her. Just like it was funny then

Hannah 1:01:18

It was good natured ribbing.

Kelsey 1:01:20

I mean she's the smart one. Right?

Heather 1:01:23

Smart, I agree.

Dalia 1:01:23

Definitely smart.

Hannah 1:01:23

Smart. All right. And our last question is, uh, we have to pick a photo. Uh, the first photo is, it is a book lying open on the table. The second photo is a ladybug on a white background. The third one is a white flower on a bush or a tree. And, uh, lastly we have a bunch of oranges or tangerines, some form of citrus in a bowl.

Kelsey 1:01:49

The book is very darkly lit. I just want to add that in. Cause it feels full ominous.

Hannah 1:01:53

I mean, I'm remembering, uh, I mean, I feel like the book is the obvious answer here, but I'm also remembering, um, like when she was sent to get the oranges, was there another orange scene in the book? Or am I just misremembering?

Dalia 1:02:06

I just remember the one where her mother sent her out and she was giving birth.

Hannah 1:02:11

To get oranges

Dalia 1:02:11

Naval oranges. I think it was.

Heather 1:02:13

Yeah. And I think the, the implication was that was a time killer to get her out of the house. Right?

Kelsey 1:02:20

Yeah. Difficult task. I mean the book is probably

Heather 1:02:22

I think the book is the obvious choice. That's, yeah.

Hannah 1:02:25

A ll r ight. B ook. It is. Okay. So Francie is a willow, you're a wise old soul. You're probably the parent of your friend group. You get the best advice to other people, but you don't always follow it.

Heather 1:02:40

Wise old soul fits Francie? I'm not sure about any of the rest of it.

Dalia 1:02:45

I wouldn't call her the parent and.

Heather 1:02:47

She doesn't have a friend group.

Kelsey 1:02:50

Yeah, I was gonna say.

Hannah 1:02:50

She really doesn't.

Dalia 1:02:51

And because Neely was a boy, he was like in charge of the money and everything. So she'd always hand everything to him. So she couldn't be as like his mother figure.

Heather 1:03:00

And she doesn't really give much advice to anyone either.

Hannah 1:03:04

She's very, like, I feel like she gives advice to herself while it's really more like making notes for her future self. But yeah, that's internal. Not really to others.

Kelsey 1:03:13

She is much more about observing than commenting or advising.

Heather 1:03:18

Absolutely. I think the tree of heaven might fit her a little better than willow. She's very resilient. And I don't think that Buzzfeed did any better than Betty Smith did in the bar.

Kelsey 1:03:29

I think we need to scrap this

Hannah 1:03:33

and willows do well near water. And I'm remembering when they all went out on the boat and everybody was sunburned and nauseated.

Heather 1:03:37

I forgot the like terrible boat trip.

Hannah 1:03:42

Oh, that was, I felt so bad for everyone.

Dalia 1:03:46

Okay. So now we're going to go into the Bechtel test. The Bechtel test is just a pretty simple, uh, three question quiz. And I'm just going to go on down the list now and ask you guys questions. So the first question is, does this book have two female characters in it?

Kelsey 1:04:04

Yes

Heather 1:04:05

absolutely full of women,

Dalia 1:04:08

Uh, too do they both have names or rather do two or more have names?

Kelsey 1:04:12

Oh yes,

Hannah 1:04:13

yes.

Heather 1:04:13

Yes

Dalia 1:04:14

And did they discuss something other than a man?

Heather 1:04:17

Yes, definitely.

Hannah 1:04:18

For sure.

Dalia 1:04:19

So this is a easy, easy pass h undred p ercent.

Heather 1:04:22

This is an easy pass. I think a s we did, we did all pretty much agree that this is a surprisingly feminist work. And I think that that tracks then with it doing so well on the Bechtel test.

Kelsey 1:04:33

Absolutely. All right. So, as always we have some recommendations for books, you might love if A Tree Grows in Brooklyn resonated with you. So you can check out our book reviews via the link in the episode notes. And that's it for this episode of These Books Made Me. Join us next time when we'll discuss a book in which a man called Uncle Hammer comes to visit rural Mississippi among other important moments. If you think you know which book we're tackling next, drop us a tweet. W e're@PGCMLS on Twitter and#TheseBooksMadeMe.