The Wee Free Men

Crivens! We're tackling the first installment of the Tiffany Aching series, The Wee Free Men by Terry Pratchett. Tiffany is a pragmatic and precocious 9-year-old witch, whose brother has been taken by the Queen of the Fairies. She must rely on the help of tiny blue men, the Nac Mac Feegles, to navigate Fairyland to get him back. Gifted by First Sight and Second Thoughts, Tiffany uses her wit and compassion as she journeys into a world unknown to her. Full of wonder, heart and bravery, The Wee Free Men is a wonderful entryway into fantasy for any young (or old) reader! 

In this episode, we hear Hannah's deep connection to Pratchett and his Discworld series, you find out our Nac Mac Feegle names and we talk wax poetic about Pratchett's ability to write a full-fleshed female character (the bar may be a little low for male authors). We hope our fondness for the book and the main character, Tiffany, comes through in our discussion. 

These Books Made Me is a podcast about the literary heroines who shaped us and is a product of the Prince George's County Memorial Library System podcast network. Stay in touch with us via #TheseBooksMadeMe on socials, follow us on Instagram @TheseBooksMadeMe or reach out by email at TheseBooksMadeMe@pgcmls.info. 

For recommended readalikes and deep dives into topics related to each episode, visit our blog at https://pgcmls.medium.com/.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:08

Hi, I'm Hawa. I'm Heather.

SPEAKER_05 0:10

I'm Darlene. I'm Hannah. And this is our podcast, These Books Made Me. Today we're going to be talking about The We Free Men by Terry Pratchett. Friendly warning as always, this podcast contains spoilers. If you don't yet know who swords glow blue with in the presence of lawyers, please proceed with caution. Okay, so was this everyone's first time reading this book? If not, how did it compare to your memories of reading it when you were younger? Before y'all go into that, I'm just gonna say this was definitely my first time reading it, and as usual. So yeah.

SPEAKER_06 0:45

Everyone's looking at me. Well, I am responsible for us reading this book. Thank you for agreeing to uh give it a try. So I will be candid about I am not gonna I'm gonna be entirely biased about this book and this author. This book is from a series that has meant a lot to me. I I've read this book I don't know how many times. I don't think it's like an innumerable amount, but I've read all the books in this series. Terry Pratchett is an author who I picked up as a teenager. A friend of mine had her parents had a huge science fiction and fantasy library I would go over and often borrow things from from it. And I my first book from that series was not this, because that had not been published yet. This was published um a few years later. I was technically an adult uh when it came when it came out. But I read other books in this series, which started being published in the early 80s, so it's been around for a long time. I fell in love with this series, and at the time it was out of print in the United States. So if you didn't know someone who already owned it or find a copy in a library, you had to, in my case, ask your parents, in this case my father, to drive you around and hunt used bookstores for use secondhand copies of whatever books in the series happened to be available. So my father patiently drove me around to hunt for whatever copies of these books existed. Way and go, Dad. That's dedication. My dad did not understand. I would say it's this amazing series about, you know, this flat world with uh on a turtle and elephants, and he and this happens, and he was like, I do not understand what you're talking about, child, but sure. We can go to that bookstore, I'll I'll be over here where you browse in the science fiction, which was very sweet of him. My dad, uh I'll if you let me tell a brief anecdote, because this is it's kind of relevant to my experience of the books. My dad does not really read fiction or did not. A few years later, we were on a plane together on going on a family trip, and he was very bored. It was a seven-hour flight, and he asked me if I had a book to read. And I had a couple of books, one of which was a Terry Pratchett book, and I handed him a copy of Terry Pratchett's Guard Scars. And by the time the plane landed, my father, who does not like fiction, who he's one of those dads who reads like depressing books about World War II. Um by the time we landed, he was like, This is amazing. Why have I never known about this author? Do you own all the all the books in the series? And I said, No. I'm a teenager, I can't afford to buy all the books that I want. And he's like, Well, give me a list and we'll we'll order them all. So it became a series that my dad and I read together. Um, you know, in my late teens and into early adulthood, and we still uh talk about this author every now and then. So anyway, I don't want to talk for forever about this, but this is uh this series, um, the characters, the stories have shaped my experience of reading and the way I think, and has been a part of my life for gosh, decades at this point at this uh point. That is so sweet.

SPEAKER_05 3:58

That is very true to the spirit of these books made me.

SPEAKER_02 4:02

How do you follow that up? Right. Also, why didn't we do this book sooner? So many books, so little time. Right. I haven't read this book before, so this is my first time reading it. I think my takeaway with from this is that I would have enjoyed it as a kid, and I wish that I had read it then. And I love that it validates overthinking. So, you know, first what is it, first light, second thoughts, third thoughts, unite?

SPEAKER_01 4:29

Um, I also didn't read this when I was a child because it wasn't out then. I was a young adult-ish when I read it. I I think it's it's hard to remember. I feel like this came somewhere during the Harry Potter run of books for me. And I was just I think reading a lot more, you know, I was contemplating library school. I was working with kids a lot at the time, and so I was reading a lot more childhood books, you know, and fantasy being certainly one of the genres that I was reading a good amount in. I remember thinking it was a charming book at the time, and I wish it would have been written when I was a little kid because I would have loved it. But I think it's I I think it's such a fun read. So I really was glad to revisit it. It was a good time.

SPEAKER_06 5:25

Yeah, same here. I would have loved to read this when I was closer to the Age of Tiffany. Age of Tiffany.

SPEAKER_01 5:31

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_06 5:32

But I think one of the I mean I think one of the things about this book is that although it's put in young adults or I mean just the nine-year-old, nine-year-old protagonist, but you know, it's the start of a series and she ages a couple years um each time. I think it I think it could be read by people of many different types of people. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:52

It's totally Jay appropriate. Like I would have torn through this when I was like eight or nine, probably.

SPEAKER_02 5:58

I think the only thing that tripped me up were was the dialogue for the what is that, Nick McVieagle's? Oh, then Neck McViegal. Yeah. I think that's the only thing that would have tripped me up as a kid. I would have just like kept like reading over it or something. There's one of the books I think that has a glossary. What does cribbins mean?

SPEAKER_06 6:18

I'm not sure. I think it's sort of a general ex exclamation.

SPEAKER_05 6:22

That's so funny because I didn't realize it. Like, I was like, oh, maybe this is just like a British thing or something. And she's like, Yeah, I don't say that around our parents. Or at all.

SPEAKER_02 6:32

Or that she had just like a general sense that it was a curse word. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 6:37

It's like that Spongebob episode where like the dolphin noises, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:42

Hey, Patrick, how the area? Pretty good Spongebob.

SPEAKER_06 6:47

I mean, uh, I think there's a sort of the effect of the the fiebles is that there's a lot of like you get you get the sense of a lot of like swearing or swearing adjacent language that's happening, but still in like a a way that's not really inappropriate because it's sort of fanciful. Like uh, I guess like fracking from what was that was that bad sword galactica that had fracking? Oh, yes in place of uh of the F word?

SPEAKER_01 7:20

Yeah, that might be well and then like obviously good place with Oh yeah. Forking. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:29

Holy mother forking shirt balls.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

Yeah, and I feel like Firefly also had a well, they they would drop the Chinese, but there was something else in there where it was like an exclamation that was like a faux curse word that was clearly standing in for our real curse words. So for uh context, it it says that Crivens is derived from Criffins, a euphemistic alteration of Christ fend us. So it's just an exclamation of astonishment or surprise. So it's an old-timey, oh my god.

SPEAKER_06 8:07

I think they they did have the toad swear at one point, so it's crope. She's like, what? Oh, that's toad profanity.

SPEAKER_01 8:17

In the We Free Men, Tiffany Aiking is a nine-year-old girl who lives on a sheep farm on the chalk, a rolling countryside that sounds peaceful until you remember that this is a Terry Pratt book where danger is usually lurking behind something absurd. Tiffany is practical, clever, and a cheesemaking prodigy. She is the youngest daughter in the large Aiking family and is somewhat resentful of her little brother, who is the golden child to her parents. In Tiffany's opinion, Wentworth is simply a sticky nuisance, a spoiled baby who's obsessed with sweets and he's not too bright. Tiffany begins to notice oddities around the farm, dreams turning strange, tiny creatures stealing things, and an honest-to-goodness monster in their stream. After baiting the monster with Wentworth, Tiffany smacks it in the head with a frying pan and goes off looking for education to understand why a fairy tale story monster like Jenny Greenteeth would end up in her stream. Tiffany finds this education in the form of one perspective tick, who informs her that she is a witch, and from the sounds of it, so is Tiffany's grandmother, Granny Aking. Tiffany clocks that and begins recalling memories of Granny Aking making magic, reviving a freezing lamb, fixing the Baron's violent dog, and controlling her hurting dogs with her mind. Tiffany comes to realize it wasn't exactly magic, but a sharp mind and hard work. But as she says, it doesn't stop being magic even if you know how it works. Tiffany returns home pondering her newfound witchiness, only to find her annoying little brother Wentworth has been snatched by the fairy queen. This is not cute woodland fairy fairy, mind you, but a malevolent and selfish queen who rules a nightmare realm full of surreal landscapes and monsters. This isn't the first boy the Queen has carried off, as Roland, the 12-year-old son of the Baron, has been missing about a year. Fortunately, Tiffany's not entirely alone. Enter the Knack McFeagalls, also known as the Wee Free Men, a clan of tiny blue men who are basically Scottish warriors shrunk to six inches tall and powered entirely by chaos. Think braveheart, but really tiny and supernaturally strong. They drink, fight, steal sheep, yell constantly, and believe dying just means you wake up in a better pub. Led by Rob Anybody, the Fieals decide Tiffany's a witch, or in their words, a hag, and therefore worth following into battle, mostly because she can hit things with a frying pan and doesn't scare easily. Tiffany is immersed in Fiegal culture during her quest to save her brother. The Fieals are searching for a new Kelda, the matriarch of the clan who handles all the actual thinking while the men run around headbutting problems. Their old Kelda dies after meeting Tiffany and feeling confident in making her interim Kelda. The Fieals are somewhat skeptical about having a big job Kelda, but Tiffany wins their loyalty with her quick thinking and powers of first sight and second thoughts. This is essentially Tiffany being really observant and clever, but the Fieals also believe it's still magic, even if you know how it works. The whole crew of Fieels, plus Tiffany, plus Miss Tick's talking toad, plunge into the nightmare realm of the Queen. In the Queen's territories, dreams become reality, for better or usually worse. Tiffany locates Roland, who is spoiled but demonstrates a bit of courage now and then, and finds Wentworth tantruming due to an overload of candy. Tiffany and the Fieals manage to navigate through the ever-changing nightmare world and monsters through a combination of fighting and Tiffany learning to perceive and control reality in the Queen's realm. The whole crew escapes back to the chalk, and Tiffany is quickly met by a small team of witches who came to save her but are a bit too late to assist. She learns that she'll be able to get a witching education in a few years, but in the meantime, she'll be able to covertly explore her own magic by taking care of others and defending those who can't defend themselves. Tiffany is truly Granny Aiking's queen, as the fagals say, and adopts the role of Haggad the Hills, quietly watching out for her people and her animals.

SPEAKER_06 12:17

Terry Pratchett, later known to his fans as Sir Terry, was born Terrence David John Pratchett on April 28, 1948, in Beaconsfield, Buckinghamshire, England. He was the only child of David and Eileen Cairns Pratchett, who worked respectively as a mechanic and as a secretary. The young Pratchett entered the Holtzburgh County Primary School in 1954, where he encountered social stigma for a speech impediment. He also encountered a head teacher who was convinced that the six-year-old would never amount to anything and said as much. However, Pratchett's mother, Eileen, supported her son's education at home with a tutor and by providing incentives to read and study. Pratchett scored highly enough to be able to attend an academic grammar school for the next leg of his education, despite the predictions of his head teacher who has decided that trade and technical school would be what he must do. Pratchett did decide to attend Wycombe Tech next, but it was his choice. Eileen also saw that he enrolled in typing lessons, which ended up being a useful skill for him later. A self-described nondescript student, Pratchett once credited the Beaconsfield Public Library with his education. In order to get around the checkout limit of two books per child, he worked at a deal where he volunteered his time at the library on Saturday in order to be permitted to check on multiple books at a time. Pratchett began writing short stories during adolescence, publishing his first in the publication Science Fantasy at the age of 15, and later would publish serialized fiction after quitting school to apprentice as a journalist with the Bucks Free Press at the age of 17 in 1965. His father had to sign the indenture forms with him since Terry was still a minor. He showed up for his first day on a September Monday in 1965. For his first assignment in the field, he was taken along with a senior reporter to a farm where a man had drowned in mud in the bottom of a well. In 1968, he married an art student named Lynn Perves. That same year, Pratchett also met a local publisher, Peter Bander Van Duren, who connected the young author with the man who would later become its publisher and agent, Colin Smythe. Writing fiction had become a daily habit that Pratchett engaged in to decompress after the stress of his newspaper job. In 1971, Pratchett's first novel, The Carpet People, was published. It was celebrated by a launch party in the carpet department of a furniture company. Pratchett and his wife, Lynn, welcomed their daughter Rihanna in 1976. In 1983, the first Disc World title was published, entitled The Color of Magic. The Disc World series would be what Pratchett is best known for: a humorous fantasy series set on a disc-shaped flat world that is carried on the backs of four elephants. They're standing on a great turtle named Attuin. Where Atowin is going is a subject of much philosophical speculation. The Discworld series would eventually number 41 books. It was incredibly successful and published around the world in multiple languages. Pratchett would give up journalism to become a full-time author by 1987, and by 1996, he was the UK's best-selling author. He was awarded an OBE in 1998 and knighted in 2009 for services to literature. Pratchett won the Carnegie Medal in 2002 for his non-discworld book, The Amazing Marethe and Its Educated Rodents. Reportedly, this is the award that he was the proudest of. In 2007, Pratchett announced a devastating diagnosis of form of Alzheimer's called posterior cortical atrophy. He continued to write prolifically for the rest of his years and became a staunch advocate for Alzheimer's research as well as for legalizing assisted dying in the UK. His death was announced by his assistant Rob Wilkins on Twitter on March 12th, 2015, with a series of threaded tweets reading, At last, Sir Terry, we must walk together. Terry took Death's arm and followed him through the doors and onto the Black House desert under the Endless Night at the end. The last Just Rule Book and the final in the Tiffany Aching series, The Shepherd's Crown, was published that same day. Many fans of his work refused to read that book in order to preserve some unread Discworld slash Pratchett. Have you read it? I have read it. I I couldn't not read it. But there's uh rules on actual end forums a lot of the time where no spoilers for the shepherd's crown. Like you can discuss anything else, but not the shepherd's crown.

SPEAKER_05 17:04

That's interesting.

SPEAKER_06 17:07

It's interesting because I think you can really uh if you read his books over the last few years, like they're definitely, to my mind, worth reading, but you can see his writing changing. He's definitely not uh the same author that he was. I wouldn't say that it's bad, but you can I think you can see traces of his illness. He's also an author whose style changes uh significantly over the course of his writing. You can really kind of see where you are in his, you know, in in in the sort of the eras, but I think you can really in the last in the books he wrote in the last few years of his life see, you know, that his his mind is not where it was. Like I think there's it's kind of hard to describe. I think there's some sentimentality, there's just there's some the way he characterizes people. It's just I they're good, they're worth reading, but uh to read The Shepherd's Crown, it's it's not it's not the same author as before. It's it it's a it's a very st intense experience, at least it was for me, because uh he wraps up a lot of loose ends. It's it's a very powerful book, but it feels like an ending in a lot of ways. So it's it's it's kind of so it's the fact that it ended up being the Tiffany Aiken book that's the last last book he ever wrote in the both in at all and in the series is is kind of interesting.

SPEAKER_02 18:27

But I mean, I guess we kind of already started to discuss a little bit about the author at least, but I think his characterization of Tiffany was really interesting for a nine-year-old. In many ways, she did seem a lot older than she was, and I think that that's also because she kind of presents as like an heir essentially to Granny Aching. But what did you guys think of like her character and how she was written?

SPEAKER_05 18:52

I thought that I thought that she was interesting. Like I liked the little like like little quips and things that she had about her, like how um whenever like her brother would like say a word wrong, she would correct him, but also at the same time, she was one of those people who did a lot of reading, but didn't always like you know how when you read a lot and you haven't heard a word out loud, so you say it wrong?

SPEAKER_02 19:13

I love the representation.

SPEAKER_06 19:17

I'm still haunted by the um way I pronounced the word stingy the first time I said it aloud. Stingy. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 19:24

Um it's facade. Oh, how did you say I think it's like fecade or something? We've all been there.

SPEAKER_05 19:34

Absolutely. I still go through that. Like especially when we like do these uh recordings, and some of the words I've been putting in these synopses are like, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 19:44

I look at them and I think, you know, I I'm just gonna choose another word.

SPEAKER_02 19:48

Yeah, I died when she's when the way that she pronounced metaphorical.

SPEAKER_05 19:55

And Mystix's like, well, actually, I think you mean. But no, I thought it was I thought she was interesting. Like, I I didn't read the synopsis before going into the book, so I really had like no idea what to expect. But I thought that they did a good job of like kind of showing what it's like to kind of be like that almost youngest sibling and then having other siblings that come behind you in that way where you're just like I don't like you, but I love you. So yeah.

SPEAKER_06 20:21

There was that bit where they where they said, you know, you don't love him, and she's like, what's love got to do with my mother?

SPEAKER_05 20:28

Exactly. And I'm like, she's saying that, but like you're doing all this because you love him.

SPEAKER_02 20:33

And she's at that perfect age where like the mind mind mind thing about her character really makes sense. But then they're like, that's also like a witch's dream. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 20:48

She was very uh wanting to learn, especially like I thought the whole like education tense coming around thing was like interesting.

SPEAKER_06 20:58

The wandering teachers. I I was trying to think how how does how does the uh so so they don't have a they don't have a schoolhouse. Like I it never struck me the until I read the book this time how odd it is that they don't have any sort of built-in school and they just have like bands of wandering teachers who they chase out at night so they don't steal the chickens. I was like, this is a real This is odd.

SPEAKER_05 21:21

It's like I did think that was weird, but then I was like, oh, we're reading about blue men, so this isn't the weirdest thing.

SPEAKER_01 21:27

Yeah, I mean the idea of the teachers is like peddlers, basically. But they're peddle your pedal. A weird mix of like you might get a snake oil kind of education, or you might get like really legitimate information that you need. I yeah, I think that's a fun uh like setup in this in this world. I I thought that Tiffany, you know, she's another in sort of a line of characters about that, you know, nine years old that we've read that's like very self possessed. Because I think, you know, Francie and a Tree Grows in Brooklyn or Cassie and Roll of Thunder, like they're that. Same age, but they're also just these very curious and observant little people. And so they they do present in many ways as much more mature than their age, except then you see the flashes of like Oh, she's nine. Yeah. So I really liked that. I mean, I like that a lot as a main character setup for a lot of things. But yeah, I mean, she's a very she's a lovable main character, I think.

SPEAKER_05 22:36

She starts out swinging, literally.

SPEAKER_06 22:40

You gotta love a a practical, a practical child. Right.

SPEAKER_05 22:45

I should have brought a flying pan.

SPEAKER_02 22:46

Yeah, I also really liked about her that they present her as like really logical or someone that likes to sometimes like overthink what she does, or that maybe she doesn't do the more like caring thing. She's kind of a little unapologetic about it. I mean, she will, I think, judge herself a little bit. Like I do remember that scene where she felt bad about like Wentworth, like the water was coming, and then I think she only really took Roland and let Wentworth go with the neck McVeagles. And then she was like thinking about her choice, and she was like, I it was the logical thing to do. Like, what was I gonna do? Be brave and also and sadly. Right. And that's like a lot, I think, for like a nine-year-old to like think through. It's the same thing, just like even the fact that she used Wentworth as like bait as well. Like, there's this like other thinking, like, well, I think this is what makes most sense in this situation, even though like what this person might perceive as like using someone or like not caring enough, but like this is what makes sense to me.

SPEAKER_06 23:52

Yeah, like what are the ethics of using your baby brother to lure a monster? But but she can also like she's carefully watching the water. Right. She's like, And she has a weapon. Is it getting deeper? I better go. I got another frying pan ready.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

Like it's very pragmatic as well. I mean, yes, something could happen to Wentworth, but something could happen to like her whole community because there's this monster nobody knows about that, what might she do? You know, so I yeah, I like that about her, the sort of balance between like she's not cold at all, but she she will make the pragmatic decision when it needs to be made.

SPEAKER_06 24:33

And she's I mean, and she's aware, like she's aware that of she lives in a an environment where she knows that harsh things happen. She knows that foxes eat chickens, she's seen shunned people in the community die. Um, she's uh she understands the way you know life can be very harsh and dangerous in a way that m perhaps not all nine-year-olds do. Maybe someone who lives in a world that's a little bit more sheltered. I I think growing up on a farm, she probably understands.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

And he had such a contrast, he's older too.

SPEAKER_05 25:15

It took me a while to realize that he was older because of how he was kind of like she had the same him, essentially. And he just kind of was like dragging his feet.

SPEAKER_02 25:24

I love that logically the Baron is like, well, he's had fencing lessons, so he must have been the hero in this story. Despite the fact that he was gone for a year.

SPEAKER_05 25:37

And she's so clever because like there's the part where like they're like, oh, well, we need a what is it, a Klunda? Oh, a Kelda. They're like, oh, we need a Kelda, but like the Kelda has to marry one of us. She's like, well, you can marry what does she say?

SPEAKER_01 25:51

I think she does it like whether it's like a a rock being like a mountainous rock being reduced down to like A pebble or something.

SPEAKER_06 26:00

The edge their beak on the mountain, and until the mountain is reduced, she, you know, she gets an erosion as like the time frame, which is you know gonna be millennia.

SPEAKER_01 26:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 26:11

And then Roth anybody like sides. Because he's like, I don't want to marry a giant girl. And it's funny because like Tiffany, like I was thinking about the story's relationship to fairy tales and folktales so much, and like there's this push and pull. Like, because Tiffany, she talks about like that shelf of books and like the the good child's book to fairy tales, and she talks about like Miss Snapperly dies because of stories. And she talks about how in the stories they they say that only girls who look like this get to be princesses, if that's something you would want to do.

SPEAKER_05 26:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 26:49

She talks about like store like the way stories like can lead you astray or give you narratives that are unhelpful. And uh she basically goes, these are lies, these are stupid, they're day or they're dangerous. But then also like she uses this story here, the kind of this like almost like the the story of a bird wiping its beak on a mountain to get herself out of this you know, engagement to rob anybody. And then, you know, her stories about like Granny Aching, there they say explicitly at one point that there's something about like the fairy of fairy fairy tales, the two granny the stories about Granny Aching with like the stories about saving the Baron's dog and I can't remember the other stories right now, but you know, whenever Granny Aiking appears in a flashback. So there's this push and pull between like stories as danger and stories as helpful structure. I I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 27:53

Well, and that there's something there's something true about the fairy tales uh somewhere, you know. So it's it's the untangling what is real and what is you know myth.

SPEAKER_02 28:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

And where does that stop mattering? Because it goes back to that whole, you know, even if you know how it's done, magic is still cool, even if it's not really magic, you know. And like that's sort of the driving thing with Granny Aking is all of these things that she thought were magic when she was very small, she understands now that the lamb wasn't actually dead, it was just kind of hypothermic and on the verge of death. So warming it up, you know, revived it. Not that Granny Aiking put a dead lamb into an oven, which was what it looked to be when she was five, and the lamb came to life, you know. So I I like that angle on things, and I feel like that's also maybe somewhat from his journalist background, because as a journalist, I would think you really understand your maybe well, some journalists probably don't understand the responsibility here, but like they understand the impact of your crafting the narrative for how people interpret or understand events. Yeah. And for, you know, for the right person, that carries a lot of responsibility to, you know, fact-finding and making sure that you present things truthfully. But reality is that people want the they want the cool story, right? And like what does that say about us? And is that do you give people the cool story with the idea that they'll eventually come to the real truth of it and find what they need from that cool story in different ways, like along the path of their life. Um, which I think is is interesting because Tiffany does seem to have a like good grasp of that in general. I mean, she understands that stories can be dangerous because clearly the community thinking that this poor old woman was a witch.

SPEAKER_05 30:11

Right. Like they were terrible to me.

SPEAKER_01 30:13

They were horrible.

SPEAKER_05 30:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:15

I mean, it's the more you think about it, the the darker that's and she was no witch, right? She was just an older woman who looked the part. And so she didn't do anything to anyone. And then Granny Aiking benefited in some ways from the community thinking she was a witch, right? Like the Baron sort of deferred to her because he had some fear of her witchiness, right? And the community would go to her with problems and such, even though Tiffany knows, like, well, was it really magic or was it just hard work and smarts and, you know, cleverness? Like the the thing with the dogs, where she realizes, like, well, no, she wasn't really controlling them with their mind. They're like three separate minds working in concert because they know each other so well and they know each other's uh desires and habits and all of these things. I think that's an interesting, it's an interesting take on the power of story, the power of myth, or the value of that.

SPEAKER_02 31:25

I think that's why I enjoyed this book because I I think it's like it's still fantasy, and there's like so many elements of that in it, but it's like really rooted in reality. And you could just take it as like a child's like overactive imagination if you wanted to, if that's how you wanted to like read the series or well, the book, you could do that, or you know, you can kind of lean into like the fantasy of it. And yeah, I just going a little back to like Tiffany and her perceptiveness, I also think it was really interesting that even at nine, she knew that what happened to Miss Snapperly was very much just a community being uh bigoted. Yeah, bigoted, like they just didn't know what to do with someone that age anymore. Like it made them uncomfortable. And so the minute they could like ascribe this myth to her and kind of play her out to be like the bad person, you know, they could cast her out.

SPEAKER_05 32:22

Yeah, because even when she was talking to Miss Tick about it, you could tell that she felt kind of like emotional about it.

SPEAKER_06 32:27

Oh, I'm sorry. No, no, no. No, no, no. You were talking, huh? That was it.

SPEAKER_05 32:31

Yeah, that's pretty much it.

SPEAKER_06 32:34

I was gonna say she she was furious.

SPEAKER_05 32:36

Yeah, like and I don't know if you get that a lot from kids that age, right? I mean, they may realize, oh, like it's messed up, it's wrong, but like if even that, because a lot of the times they're just like, oh, well, if this is what the adults are saying, then that's probably what happened. And if they did that, then she probably deserved it. Um so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:55

Yeah, I feel like there are things you like know as a kid, but I just feel like, well, at least maybe for me, like I didn't think I could articulate it. I feel like in the way that she does, like she can articulate like her anger about it. So yeah, I I definitely appreciated that about her. Cause I was thinking back to like I I I don't know why I was thinking about this recently, but like, you know, the whole like media fanfare around Britney Spears and like making her out to be like really crazy. And um, I just remember as a kid just being like, I could tell like that that that they were obviously like even though they would say like she's crazy, I'd be like, I feel like it's wrong that you're portraying her that way, like, but I wouldn't know how to like verbalize that. Like, I think it's only now that we know, like, yeah, it was sexism, and like they wanted her to play a specific role, and obviously, like you can't no human being can like really live up to everyone's expectations in that way, and so you are gonna break. And maybe, you know, we should have treated her with more compassion than what she got.

SPEAKER_03 33:56

Uh leave Britney alone.

SPEAKER_06 34:01

Please I don't know anyone could exist in a situation like that and come out any sort of like emotionally healthy way. Right.

SPEAKER_01 34:13

Child stars really go through it. Yeah. Boy, Amanda Bynes. Ooh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:18

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 34:19

Oh, it just gets worse and worse. That poor girl.

SPEAKER_02 34:22

Did who put meaningful name and I guess specifically what did we want to discuss?

SPEAKER_06 34:27

Is it Oh, I did. Um, and we we can sorry, I put a lot of random stuff on there. We don't have to But I you know, they had that whole bit about like Tiffany's like, I'm not sure if I can live up to Tiffany. It might be a problem if I'm gonna be a witch. And I was kind of thinking about, you know, like what there's that like the Tiffany problem when people are like, Tiffany sounds like it's a really modern name, but it's actually a much older name than it sounds. And there's that whole bit where the the the old Calda tells us are like, oh, well, your name sounds like it means land under a wave in our language. I just thought that was Oh no, that is really sweet.

SPEAKER_05 34:58

Right, because names mean a lot to them, right? That's why they don't we don't get the actual names of the I know.

SPEAKER_02 35:05

Yeah. What are you gonna do with my tell you our names? But there's that whole bit about like the distress.

SPEAKER_06 35:12

You can't grow a good witch on chalk, it's too soft. But then they talk about, oh your name might mean some variant on land under wave in the fecal language, and then the whole discussion about the chalk is actually made up of like shells and bones of long-dead little sea creatures from back when everything was underwater. Um that's all I was thinking about. Is that what chalk is made up of? Yeah, pretty much.

SPEAKER_02 35:36

We don't have to include this in the actual episode, but do you guys is there like a meaning to your names?

SPEAKER_05 35:42

Yeah, my name is Arabic. It means Eve, like Adam and Eve.

SPEAKER_02 35:45

Oh, nice.

SPEAKER_01 35:46

Oh really? Yeah. Mine's just a flower. Mine means fruit. I love it. Yeah, it's like uh weedy, scrubby. It grows on like moors and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 35:57

Like and but is that what your parents intended, or they just really liked the name? They just liked the name. I mean full of grace. Full of grace.

SPEAKER_05 36:06

Do you feel like you're full of grace?

SPEAKER_06 36:07

No, I trip over my own feet a lot. No, you're uh you did ballet, right? Yeah, but that's the joke, is that ballet dancers are really graceful in class and then they get out of class and then they trip over their oet because they've stopped thinking about it.

SPEAKER_02 36:22

Gotcha. So we talked a little bit about the myth in this book, but I think another like running theme, or I guess tied to that, is the power and significance of words. Is there anything else that we wanted to touch on? I mean, I feel like we kind of touched on it as much as we could with the whole myths, but I know that dreams were a big thing as well.

SPEAKER_06 36:44

Well, the fieals are very afraid of words, the power of words. At one point, Tiffany like reads from the diseases of the sheep to open up the door into fairyland.

SPEAKER_04 36:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 36:56

And I think there's I mean Tiffany is c well, Tiffany is constantly meditating on the meaning of words, like this, there's the Cesaris and the Gibbus moon and uh the Pune and play upon words.

SPEAKER_03 37:08

Well, although corrects her.

SPEAKER_06 37:13

Yeah. Um fun fact. They multiple Discworld characters elsewhere in the series mispronounce it Pune. It's kind of a running gag. Oh, really? I don't know why.

SPEAKER_05 37:23

It's so funny because when she first said that, I was like, what is she trying to say? And then I was like, oh, okay.

SPEAKER_06 37:30

Remember when she was trying to pronounce psychology? Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 37:36

No, but it's kind of that's kind of fun.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

The I think to go back to the opening the gate into the like other realm, she didn't need those words to open the gate. It was just sort of like smoke and mirrors to make it seem like magic because she felt like the fiegal. But then they knew she was not really exactly, but they were like impressed that she knew that like I should make this look a certain way because they, you know, they knew it was just that she had observed well and could see where it was, but they needed her to find it to like prove that she could lead them. And then she did sort of the bonus thing of making it extra witchy by like reading some words that they didn't like.

SPEAKER_06 38:23

She didn't need she didn't need it, but I think she also did maybe at some level because like you know, she she brought, I think she brought the diseases of the sheep and the jolly sailor wrapper because she was trying to like bring Granny aching with her. Like so because she, you know, I think this is this is this book is what we see Tiffany at her most like inexperience, and naive is not really a word that uh fits Tiffany very well. But I I I feel like you couldn't say that. I mean she's so naive, you know, doing you know, all of these things she's doing. Excuse a little naivete. But like but she picks up quick. Very quick. And she definitely handles it way better than I think most people would, like all of these things that are happening. But I mean, she's you know, she's kind of like, okay, well, I'm going to read these diseases of the sheep and think about my grandmother and try to imagine a door in a fairy land. It's a little bit of an invocation, even if it's not really magic.

SPEAKER_02 39:25

Yeah. But it kind of is. I love that she still keeps believing, even as like things kind of like she realizes they weren't how she thought they were in terms of it being magic, like the fact that the NAC McFiegels were the ones that were doing things for her grandmother. And then well, I guess that's technically magic, but what else?

SPEAKER_01 39:47

I think it's a weird blend of things that she realizes were not magic, like a lot of the things that her grandmother did. Yeah. But then there's things that are clearly still magic in the world. Yeah. It just wasn't that Granny Aiking was the one doing them specifically. Like people flying on brooms is clearly still magical in some way to her. She does not understand how that's working, or but she understands some of those things, and and yeah, that sort of refrain of, well, it's still valuable even if you understand the trick, you know?

SPEAKER_06 40:20

Well, there's that, you know, I mean, there's that quote, uh it doesn't stop being magic just because you know how it's done. Which I think really opens up the door about trying to understand trying to nail down the definition of magic.

SPEAKER_02 40:38

I mean, I think it also has nice real life usage too.

SPEAKER_01 40:43

And there's a lot of interesting like inversions of things related to words. So the bard characters of the fieals and like the battle poetry. Yeah, exactly. Like it's almost like the opposite of what a bard would usually do. It's like it's bad on purpose, you know. I I and I think like the lesser feagal that's learning to be the bard, like the I loved that theme.

SPEAKER_06 41:14

It's really fun. He's he's getting like a little like job review after he you know defeats uh some of the grands. Like, good job. Those those lyrics were terrible. Yeah. You've got the makings of a good conical. Oh yeah, not as not as big as we not as big as we jock jock, but bigger than we I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 41:37

Maybe we could skip ahead to this because it's not really a game. Um we should have done this at the beginning. Oh the Fiegel names? The name thing. We can figure out what our Fiegel names are because I think the naming conventions of the Fiegel are it's really funny in the book. So the the thing that I found was somebody who said, Crivins in Terry Prattett's Discworld, the Knack McFiegel, are six inches tall and covered in blue tattoos. They fight, steal sheep, and generally lead a grand life. If you're planning on joining the clan, have your knack McFiegel name ready. And then we use our initials from first and last names to discover our knack McFiegel names. Hawa and I will be the same, but I will uh I will revert to my maiden name for my last initial so that Hawa and I are not the exact same name. So it it gives an example if your initials are AW, it ends up matching to the A is awfully we, and the last uh the last name matches to woolly. So awfully we woolly would be your feagal name. So, Darlene, what is your fiegal name?

SPEAKER_02 42:40

Mine is daft rob.

SPEAKER_03 42:43

Poor Darlene.

SPEAKER_05 42:47

Mine is no as we as we jock. But smaller. Oh, sorry, okay. Let me keep reading it. I was like, what? Okay. No as we as we jock, but smaller than big jock. Jock. Jock. Oh, okay. I see.

SPEAKER_06 43:10

Mine is no as we as we babby, but smaller than big baby babby.

SPEAKER_00 43:18

I'd be not as we as we Neil, but smaller than Big Neil, Neil.

SPEAKER_01 43:24

That was my best fiegal accent. That's all I got.

SPEAKER_05 43:28

This reminds me of so uh Childish Gambino got his name from a Wu-Tang clan name generator. Watching haters wonder why Gambino got gang. So that's what this baby thing does. So like in college, like me and all my friends, like we went and put our names in like the Wu-Tang clan generator name. Uh huh. And mine was like Waco Specialist.

SPEAKER_03 43:48

Nice.

SPEAKER_01 43:50

Oh, I wanted to talk about feminism in the book. Because I do think I know we'll talk about this a little bit more with Beck Deltas to some degree, but I think this is a a very feminist work, which is you know surprising since the Man wrote it. Right. Maybe that's unkind of me, but I No, it's honest. Yeah. You know, I I felt like generally when we've been picking books, the vast majority of our books have been written by women, with a few exceptions. And I will say that the few exceptions that we've had have been the authors have turned out to be horrible people. Yeah. So just Neil Gaiman. Roll doll. Oh, damn. Um that may be it for our men. Which roll doll book did we do? Metalda.

SPEAKER_05 44:41

I wasn't on the episode. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 44:43

Yeah, we have one who's a Nazi and one who's just turned out to be a garbage person, which is a shame because Yeah, pretty much. He was a sympathizer, anyways. But like, you know, Neil Gaiman, I feel like as librarians, we were so leaning on that man because he was so pro-library. And like anytime you see, you know, something that's a a quote about how great libraries are, nine times out of ten, it's Neil Gaiman. And so I think we all felt just like profoundly betrayed when he turned out to be just a garbage person like so many others.

SPEAKER_05 45:19

Thumbs up to the book. Thumbs down to the Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:23

Yeah. But this one, I feel like Terry Pratchett really acquits himself well. And I hope we don't learn someday that he was a you know a terrible person. I I feel like there's been enough time that that would have come out already.

SPEAKER_02 45:36

I was gonna say it's like Caesar Chavez, like you heard Chatter before you got the like big expose, something like that. Like from like Dolores Webb. Yeah. I was like, you would have heard it by now. One would think. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 45:47

I mean, so Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman were they were friends. Terry Pratchett. Well, he probably didn't know he was a Jim.

SPEAKER_01 45:55

Terry was a Japan. Terry Pratchett here. You don't always know what your friend is doing in their private life. So it's gross.

SPEAKER_06 46:03

Terry Pratchett died before the news came about Neil Gaiman. So I I mean I've actually like I've been stressing about this because like they did. They they co-wrote a book together and they were friends. And I I mean I I obviously didn't know Terry Pratchett. My relationship with him was entirely parasocial. And you never really know someone, but like I would really like to believe that he knew nothing. I have only ever heard from anyone who was ever interacted with him or any I mean, like you said, I you you think things would have come out, but I guess you never really know someone. But I've only ever heard that he was a that he was a ver that he was a very decent person and there's never never been any mutterings about anything. I I would like to think that he would have been horrified to learn this about about Neil Gain. I again I my complete lack of unbiasedness about these books and this author's uh is gonna show here, but I think there's there's really strong themes in his books about like which I think you see in this about uh justice and seeing people as people and trying to do the right thing even if it's hard. I hope that that's uh is an accurate representation of his character.

SPEAKER_02 47:22

Yeah, there's a way that he writes the women in this book as like kind of making decisions that really only like a woman can make. I don't know how to explain it, but like I just feel like things could have only been the way that they were among the Aiking clan because you had a matriarch like um Grandma Aiking. Yeah. And then I was gonna ask you guys, how did you guys feel about at the end that she kind of accepts that Roland can just create the narrative that like he was the hero and she was like, it doesn't really matter, like only you and I know the truth. And so there was like a sort of acceptance to it, but I was uh but she knows she has the leverage with that.

SPEAKER_01 48:03

I mean, I think the you know, the message is the same as with Granny and the Baron, right? Where that man's fear of the truth coming out gives leverage to the woman that holds that truth to influence them into better behavior than they would have done otherwise. And so, you know, Granny Aiken does that with the Baron, and then she does that with Roland, where she kind of threatens him and is like, well, we both know this, and that would be a shame if other people learned this. So, of course, you're gonna do right by your people, and you're gonna like rule as like an honest and like compassionate person, and we're not gonna have any of this nonsense with like, you know, we're not gonna have a repeat of snapperly or whatever.

SPEAKER_05 48:54

You're not gonna like what happens if the truth comes out.

SPEAKER_06 48:56

Exactly. You're going to carry this with you and you're going to be wise and just, right?

SPEAKER_01 49:01

Right? Because like the men in this book are, you know, more or less non-entities. I mean, the fagals obviously are are important and some of them get developed a little bit more. But you know, the human men in the book aren't really much to write home about, right? Like it's like they're all kind of I was gonna ask, the Kelder are women too, right? Yeah, the Kelder are only women, yeah. So it's another matriarchal society. I think it's I think it's interesting because a lot of the things that he touches on in terms of the, you know, who controls the narrative, controls the history, and the way that, you know, even stories where it's this very like black and white women are either bad witches or beautiful princesses, but you know, the the women that are maligned are the ones that actually have some agency, the witches and the ones that are praised, or the princesses who have little to no agency. You know, I think it's it's fairly sophisticated in what does come across as a book for kids. I mean, he he he definitely meant this to be for young people. He did. And I think that's a very sophisticated thing to weave through the book and kind of make kids aware of in not a pedantic way, right? Like if you tell people, oh, people do this and it's bad, and so you shouldn't do that, and like you're part of this because everyone does this, that doesn't land well for anyone. Like that makes people defensive and stuff. But when you weave it through like this, and maybe you do have somebody see, like, oh, hey, that's a good point. I hadn't thought about that before. Tiffany's right, or oh, that's a a good point. Like, why is it always that the woman is either the evil stepmother or, you know, the damsel in distress? Like, I think you're doing something that's a lot more impactful than like writing something that is, you know, a little bit more American girly, uh, where it's like, here is the lesson you must learn from the two books that I wrote. No one likes to be lectured at. Exactly. So I I thought that was really cool. I I also, you know, again, it's a surprisingly feminist work for having been written by a man. And I I often have issues with how men write women, and I don't really have too many issues with how he writes here. And, you know, if if if there was going to be an issue that I had with any of the characters, it would be the fairy queen. But I think he's writing within sort of the mythos of what fantasy it, you know, he's taking a trope and he's using that, and then the sort of like metacontext for that is look, it's another trope of the bad, you know, she's the evil stepmother essentially in the book, where she's super powerful, but she's totally vain and she's just completely wrapped up in herself, and she's trying to control everything in a certain way. But, you know, Tiffany almost has like, well, she has pity for her, right? Like, I was gonna say sympathy, and I'm not sure it's quite sympathy, but like the thing that ends up being effective is that Tiffany's pity for like how vain and like how the construct of that world works is what like unlocks how do I manipulate it for good. And and I think that's an interesting use of something that you know could have come across as trope itself and not in a fun way in the book. And I think he did it in a way that was, you know, interesting. Um, because uh again, that character of the fairy queen is not particularly unique. We see that that character in some form in so many other stories that predate this book. But I think what is unique is how the insight that he gives Tiffany into how to deconstruct that trope in real time and make it work for her, I think is really an interesting way to frame things. And and not to say that like all the men in the book are bad. Like Roland's a kid, he's not evil. He's kind of a dumb 12-year-old. Yeah, exactly. Like her dad is a little bit checked out and maybe is favoring his son over the girls and stuff, but he's a product of the culture he lives in. But he has, yeah, he tries, he has some insight too. Like it even the Baron, you know, on some level, I think is not a completely, you know, cardboard cutout of a character. There's a little bit there. So it's it's not as though he's you know totally relegated the men into just you know NPCs that move things along.

SPEAKER_06 54:20

The Baron is character growth in the later books, although he's not really the focus, but you do see him change a little.

SPEAKER_01 54:26

But yeah, I I I think that that's a I think it's a great thing that we've got a male author that, you know, has done some reflection on the world and has interrogated the the stories that we tell our daughters and the stories that that we pass down and stuff, and he's tried to to do something with that. And again, I not to say that that's like a totally unique thing. I can think of a lot of other books that have sort of a similar bent to them, I guess. But in fantasy in particular, I think we very rarely have male authors centering a female character in a way that the female character feels like a person.

SPEAKER_03 55:10

I guess.

SPEAKER_06 55:12

Yeah, I think he really tried very hard and with a great deal of success tried to inhabit the mind of a of a nine-year-old girl. And it probably helped that he had a daughter at this point.

SPEAKER_02 55:24

Yeah, I was gonna say, I wonder how much of his daughter, her personality, or I guess the kind of books he'd want her to read influenced how he wrote Tiffany.

SPEAKER_06 55:34

Yeah, that would be a really interesting, interesting question.

SPEAKER_01 55:38

Yeah. I don't know how old she was at the time that he was working on this, but like born in 76. Because she would have been adults already. Because yeah, I was kind of I was thinking in my head, you know, the scenes from Princess Bride where the grandfather is reading the fairy tale book to Fred Savage, and he does, you know, he's not into it at first, but then he gets more and more into it. And I was wondering, like, if any of these things kind of evolved from stories he, you know, bedtime stories he told his daughter, and that back and forth that you have of shaping a story with a child when you're just telling stories, you know, not reading stories, but you're generating something with them. I was wondering how much that might have happened or been part of how this evolved for him.

SPEAKER_06 56:26

I just found that so this is from the Art of Disc World. And I I found this when I was flipping through the section with the artwork from on the Fiegels and Tiffany, and this is commentary from Terry Pratt. This was published in this book, like I think 2004, 2005. So it came out shortly after the first Tiffany Aiking book. If I So this is an excerpt of Text Next to some pictures on Tiffany Aiking, and quote what he says is, I rather like Tiffany, and so do the Brownie pack, I happen to be an honorary member of, who agreed that I'd written a real nine-year-old girl. Look, I helped them out with an item for their gang show, and they were kind enough to honor me, okay? I have the scarf. She's clever, but not hugely so, quiet, observant, good at making cheese, and possessed of a determination as hard as teak. I thought it would be interesting to watch her development over perhaps four books, aging her by a year or two each time. So sounds like he might have run it by some other I don't know if it was pre-publication or after, but sounds like he did talk to some perhaps nine-year-olds and got some opinions on Tiffany. I want to know the story behind the honorary Brownie member. Because this came out in 2003?

SPEAKER_02 57:48

Yeah, that was 2003. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 57:53

So his daughter was a grown woman at that point, but he certainly would have been through, you know, being a father to a nine-year-old and all of her ages.

SPEAKER_02 58:04

Uh does this book hold up and would you recommend this book?

SPEAKER_05 58:08

Question. What does your name mean?

SPEAKER_02 58:11

I think it literally just means Darling.

SPEAKER_05 58:13

Oh, that's cute. That that's very fitting.

SPEAKER_01 58:18

So I do think the book holds up, and I would recommend this book. Yeah. Um it's a again, it's a book I wish I had read when I was the age of Tiffany. So I would recommend it to certainly, I think any girls, like especially from eight and up, if they, you know, if they have the reading chops to handle uh, I mean, it's it would be longish for early J, but we certainly have kids that could handle this that are middle grade readers.

SPEAKER_03 58:49

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:49

And then I think I would also recommend it to boys and just try to sneak some fantasy into this center's women for a change in not a gross way. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:01

I think it's a good intro to fantasy for someone that maybe like doesn't know if they like it or not, because it does blur the line of like you could think of it as like more realistic, and then it could be fantasy. So I like that aspect of it too, that it could be just like an introduction for someone that maybe they don't yet know that they like fantasy, or maybe they are a little like hesitant to read fantasy.

SPEAKER_05 59:23

As somebody who is that person, I agree. Like I think I the few fantasies that I've actually been able to like finish and enjoy always have some kind of like um reality root in them. I mean, I guess a lot of the it probably does, but like this one more so than, you know, other things that I've tried. So Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:41

Does it does it feel like so dropping into this dropping into this world, does it it doesn't feel too disorienting to No, and I was gonna say like, I mean, I did find it a little bit hard to picture like the other world in it, but then I was like, but then I thought it was so funny that even within that world, because it's being created by the queen, like as you go through it, I was like, it kind of mirrors the way that like my brain is like trying to catch up in like creating whatever world it is, like through the descriptions. Does it make sense? Like it feels like unfinished until you keep going. So I appreciated that. And then also, like, yeah, I'm definitely not someone that really likes the kind of fantasy where it needs a map at the beginning of the book to like understand and like you immediately get into all of these words and like just places that you just don't know. Like it it's hard to like root yourself in the story.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:43

I mean, I obviously think this book holds up and I would recommend it. But I have I'm completely I'm completely biased when it comes to this this book. I I mean I I think this is a really good entry to this series. But I think it also maybe because it this this this series stands apart from the rest of the Disc World series in some ways, perhaps because it features a young protagonist. Most of them are about adult characters, but uh it's also I don't know, the chalk feels kind of like a land apart from a lot of the other parts of Discworld. So it kind of has more of a standalone feel than some of the other series, which I think almost stand sub-series uh of the series, which I think stand alone pretty well. So I I think it's a very self-contained young adult, uh which I think anyone could read, including like you were saying, Heather, younger children to a point, uh, people of any age. I know quite a few adults uh who have enjoyed this. I think uh I think for people who I know there's someone who uh really enjoyed Harry Potter but was looking for something other than Harry Potter, and they this they they really enjoyed this. So I love that I love that there's humor in it. There's a lot of cultural references which you sometimes have to like dig really deep to find the references to, not just because they're they're British and and I'm American, but I think I think it's uh I think there's a lot going on in this text.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:15

Wasn't there her part where they said where I think she was like, oh, there is no school, like it's just life, and then they're like, No, like you do you can learn it.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:25

Oh, for the which school? Yeah, go and go over and open your eyes and then open your eyes again. And then she does, yeah. I mean, spoiler, Tiffany does go and study uh witchcraft with when she's a little older.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:37

Yes. Yeah, but that reminded me because I was like kind of I was like, oh, okay, I can see someone that likes Harry Potter maybe really liking this. And I was like, but it is missing that school element, and then like they bring up the school again, and then I thought it was funny that she was like again trying to be like perceptive and was saying, Oh, it's just life. I get it. I get it. And then they're like, No, there is a school, like you can learn witchcraft. I feel like witches are always trying to mess with each other's heads, like constantly.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:10

Okay, hey guys, welcome, welcome, welcome. Hello. Sorry. Why did I start out like that?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:15

This is official too. It's like on Terry Pratchett book. Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:19

Thank you, Terry Pratchett. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:21

It's not a Buzzfeed quiz.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:22

It's not a BuzzFeed quiz. We love what's a BuzzFeed quiz.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:25

Are we allowed to go outside the BuzzFeed?

SPEAKER_05 1:03:28

We're doing it. BuzzFeed's gonna be like, so I thought we had an exclusive agreement here.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:35

Um we don't have a contract for them. They haven't been paying us.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:38

Send us some merch and we'll talk.

unknown 1:03:39

Right.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:41

We can do it exclusive if they pay us.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:44

Okay, so we're gonna get into our game segment. So we're gonna try out this quiz from Terry Pratchett's website called So Which Discworld Witch Are You? Take the quiz to find out. So being a witch is about much more than just wearing a black pointy hat and turning people into green, slimy things. In Discworld, they deliver babies, treat warts, and keep an eye on troublesome kings, vampires, or incursions from other worlds which they do not hold with. There are more witches on the disc than you could imagine, and dealing with all of them is like carrying a tray full of marbles. But which witch do you most closely resemble? Find out by taking this quiz. First question is Are you nosy? Yes or no?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:22

Yes, exclamation point. Yes, for sure.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:25

Yes. I am admittedly nosy. Sorry, did you say yes? We all said it. We all said yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:33

We're all nosy. We all say true.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:37

Do people think you are bossy? Yes, but someone has to decide what needs doing. Exclamation mark. No, I'd rather talk to people properly or just get on with it myself.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:45

I don't know how people think I am. Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:47

That's hard. I can't want questions ask that.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:49

Yes, everyone thinks I'm bossy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:52

You guys are kind of bosses. YouTube, so like I mine is no.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:58

Uh I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:00

You don't seem bossy to me. Okay, I'm gonna say I am bossy.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:04

I'm gonna say no then.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:07

Do you believe a good night out can help sort of?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:10

Hey, wait, what are you the difference? Mine is do you believe that fashion and the image you portray are important?

SPEAKER_06 1:05:16

We're diverging now!

SPEAKER_01 1:05:19

Okay, so we'll just do like parallel paths, I guess.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:23

Do for you, Hawa. Okay, so since I said no to the last question, the next question says, Do you believe a good night out can help sort out many a problem? The first answer is, oh yes, there's nothing like letting your hair down to brighten your outlook. And the second is no, I'd rather talk through a night out will only make you feel worse the morning after. See, my problem is I don't know if a good night out can help me sort a problem, but I also don't like talking through things. I have a very avoidant personality, so YouTube rather go out. I'd rather go out. Yeah. Ooh, okay. And then it tells me it tells me who I am. So should I say it now or just wait for everybody to wait? Okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:00

Are you yes or no? I'm gonna go with no. No, I'd rather I I don't really want to talk it through, but going Out isn't gonna help. Oh, I got another question. This is a weird like choose your own adventure play.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:13

Yeah, it's like the books with where you die or you don't. Yeah, and then you have to go back because you don't like what you got.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:19

I can't even try to hold my spots with my fingers and then read it.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:23

Yep, same. So stressful. We got a different question if you want to read it, Darlene.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:29

Well, y'all got different questions?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:30

Yeah, because when we said yes, we're bossy, we got into a different track.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:35

But did you guys get different questions from each other? No.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:37

Same one for now, yeah. So it's do you believe that fashion and the image you portray are important? I'm gonna go with no. Oh great. It's not what you look like, it's what you do that matters.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:50

That's fine. I'll go with yes because people judge you by the way you look all the time. Yeah. Yeah, it's a good idea. All right. This is fun. So my question is now do you feel at home in a busy teeming city? And my options were yes, I love the pace, the variety, and sheer volume of life in a city, or no, I'd much rather be out in the countryside where there's room to breathe. And I am a hard no. I would rather be in the countryside.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:21

My question is, are you pedantic about grammar and spelling?

SPEAKER_05 1:07:25

Okay, Tiffany.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:28

Well, my answer the choices are yes, I can't abide a misplaced apostrophe. And no, it's not as important as what you really mean and how you behave towards others. I think when I was younger, it would have been yes, but right now it's no.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:44

Hannah, did you get another question? I did. Mine is do you feel as comfortable with animals as you do with people? And my choices are yes, sometimes their animals are even better to talk to, or no, I'm not really an animal person. I'm gonna go with yes, because people suck. Do you have another question again?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:01

Yes, and you came here. Okay, so keep going.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:05

How would we have a question so quickly and we're still going? How does this work? Who's going? Go for it. Okay. My qu next question is do you feel a strong connection to the land where you live grew up? Answers are yes, definitely. It's a part of me and always will be, or not really, I'm just as happy discovering new places. I guess yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:26

Okay, I have it, I have a response. Okay, so I've still got to do mine. Do you sometimes doubt yourself, but do your utmost to never let it show, even to yourself? My choices are, oh yes, a little bit, but don't tell anyone, or no, absolutely not. I'm always right. Why would I doubt it? Uh yes, certainly. Everyone has self-doubt unless there's something wrong with them. Oh, you can't. Okay, yes, we all have answers. We all have answers. I think you were first, Tawa. So go first. No yours. You were assigned first.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:02

Yes. So it says that you like to be rooted firmly in an everyday life, a big family, a man, or two. Or two, a good party now and then. But although people might think of you as a jolly soul with a big warm hug, there is a lot more to you than that, and woe betide anyone who underestimates you. You are most like Nanny Og. And then it says here that she was generally thought of as a jolly old soul, but there was a lot more to the old woman. Nanny knew all the old dark stuff, old magic, magic that didn't need witches, magic that was built into people in the landscape. The matriarch of such a huge family, I'm gonna have to take a picture with that.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:41

The matriarch of a huge family, fond of a drop or two of scumble, a body joke, and a good sing song. Yet beneath the warm, comforting appearance, Nanny is a witch with a huge natural ability and the willingness to stand strong and kick in to touch any threats or enemies. If you need help with the unfair of the heart, Nanny is your witch. She has been there, done it, worn out several husbands, some of which were even her own, and got the commemorative cushion stitched by a donating daughter-in-law. Lastly to say, human being first, witch second. Hard to remember, easy to do. Nice. Interesting.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:14

That was such a detailed description. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:17

So like there's the first box that tells you kind of who you are, and then it kind of gives you more of like what she's like.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:24

Mm-hmm. So my description is you don't want the world, just a small part of it, which you can keep safe, and you feel a fierce responsibility towards those who ask you for help. Not want to push yourself forward or stand in the spotlight, you nevertheless command respect simply by being very good at what you do. You are most like Granny Weatherwax. And then the description that they have for her is everyone knows that witches don't have leaders, but Granny Weatherwax is the best leader they don't have, generally considered, um, including by herself as the best witch on the disc world, a witch through and through, stern and sharp-tongued, Granny doesn't do nice. She does what is needed, and she believes in using hard work rather than magic wherever possible. Though she isn't averse to moving herself into the body of a bird or animal when she wants a different view of what is going on.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:20

You sometimes feel inexperienced, not quite sure what to do, but deep down you know who you are and where you come from, and it gives you strength to trust yourself and your talent. Born on the chalk, a witch who gets her strength from her home turf. Tiffany is a hard worker who who fears letting other people down. Proud of her skills, glad of the help she gets from the knack mac feagal. Tiffany is a witch with immense natural power who can draw on the very elements to help her do what is needed. For if there is a problem to face, Tiffany will always walk towards the problem, accept the duty that comes with being a witch of the chalk. Likely to say, This is my problem, I will sort it out.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:57

I love that you got Tiffany. Yeah. I was hoping somebody would get her.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:01

Yeah. She she has she like a shorter description. You don't have a bunch of like quotes from books about her.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:08

Underneath, they didn't give you a bunch of quotes of the gave one, but yeah, just the one that sorry, two. They had the land is in my bones from the wee free man, and this is my problem. I will sort it out from I shall wear midnight.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:20

Okay. All right. You simply love paraphernalia. Books, trinkets, jewelry, accessories, and anything you can find to show the world exactly who you are. You love to see things done properly with suitable ceremony and will ensure that everyone else knows how things should be done, even if you have to tell them a thousand times where they're going wrong. Deep down, sometimes you aren't quite so sure you are doing things right, but you're certainly not going to let anyone else see that. You're most like Anna Grandma Hawken. And then the additional quotes: Anna Grandma could tell herself stories that she literally believed, and she could bounce back like a ball. With the aid of a bit of boffo, Anna Grandma Hawken is a young witch with her own studding, and that suits her fine, for Anna Grandma knows she's destined for great things, especially where the higher magic is concerned. She'd rather leave the messy bits of birthing to a village midwife, for instance, while she sets the calming runes and does special chants. Likely to say we must distinguish the higher magic from the everyday sort. None of that mumbling and hedgerows for us.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:24

You are not at all like Anna Grandma. No, not. So you're aware of the character before you got her?

SPEAKER_06 1:13:30

Yes. She's from, I think she's it appears in the next one. Oh, okay. The next book. Or is it the one after that?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:37

I can't remember. Each episode we ask whether our book passes the Bechdel test. The Bechdel test asks whether a work features two female characters who talk to each other about something that doesn't involve men or boys. So does it pass? Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:56

Even though Tiffany spends most of the time talking to the Fegals.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:00

But she does talk to me. She talks to Miss Tick. And yeah, there's Granny Aching moments. Yeah. She has some discussions with the fairy queen. Yeah, the Kelda and the Kelda. Although they're talking about and the Kelda's daughter. Yeah. Who doesn't like her, who's really, really just been out of shape about the whole situation. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:21

Well, that's it for this episode of These Books Made Me. Join us next time where we'll discuss a book in which a girl has to flee her home state due to her chronic health condition. If you think you know which books we're tackling next, or if you just want to talk to us, you can find us on Instagram or at These BooksMade Me.