Brown Girl, Brownstones

For a debut novel, Brown Girl, Brownstones by Paule Marshall sure is a tour de force. Our protagonist, Selina Boyce is caught between her hopeless dreamer father, Deighton, and resilient yet hard-edged mother, Silla, as she navigates adolescence. With the fraught tension between her parents as a backdrop, Selina struggles with feeling unlovable, the complicated feelings of hating and admiring her mother and how best to carve out a space for herself.  

In this episode, we learn that sadly…Hawa did not finish this book BUT she promises to finish it in the indeterminate future. We’ll hold her to it. Heather lets us know her feelings about Deighton (spoiler: he’s worthless). And Heather and Hannah get sucked into the possible local connections to the cult Marshall took inspiration from for the novel. Be on the look out for that deep dive! 

These Books Made Me is a podcast about the literary heroines who shaped us and is a product of the Prince George's County Memorial Library System podcast network. Stay in touch with us via #TheseBooksMadeMe on socials, follow us on Instagram @TheseBooksMadeMe or reach out by email at TheseBooksMadeMe@pgcmls.info. 

For recommended readalikes and deep dives into topics related to each episode, visit our blog at https://pgcmls.medium.com/.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:08

Hi, I'm Hawa. I'm Hannah. I'm Heather. And I'm Darlene. And this is our podcast, These Books Made Me. Today we're going to be talking about Brown Girl Brownstones by Paul Marshall. Friendly warning as always, this podcast contains spoilers. If you don't yet know who smashes a poorly played trumpet, proceed with caution.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

So was this everyone's first time reading this book? And if not, how did this compare to your memories of reading it when you were younger? Darlene, I think this was your suggestion.

SPEAKER_03 0:38

It was my suggestion. And what's so funny is that last episode we were trying to think of a spoiler as we always do. And my mind drew a blank. And I was like, I don't remember any part of this book for some reason, but I remember the effect it had on me after reading it. And so I was like, this is, you know, this is a good book. I feel like we should read it. But then if you like asked me anything about the plot, I wouldn't know. I think the reread definitely helped because I think when I first read it, it was probably one of those things. What I really enjoy about rereads is that you either um like it kind of confirms something you kind of knew about the book, or you kind of can look at it in a different way. And so I feel like it kind of did both. Like I think that maybe when I first read it, the reason why it like resonated is because I could sort of access some of the experiences because it was a very like common immigrant experience, but I didn't yet like I don't know that I like truly understood it. But I feel like this time around, maybe with more experiences and just talking to people around me more. Um I felt like this reread, I just had a much better understanding of it. So I'm really happy that I got to reread it. Cause I don't think with this, without this podcast, that I would have willingly went into it. Just because I I do vaguely remember it being a really tough book to get through the first time around.

SPEAKER_01 2:16

So for context, y'all, we're laughing because she said being a tough book to get through. I did not finish this book. I would like to eventually, and this was also my first time reading it. So I will definitely be spoiled. And so if you don't hear much of me, that's probably why. But I'm so looking forward to the conversation. And thank you for the recommendation, darling.

SPEAKER_03 2:36

It was the hesitance to go up to the mic and be like, should I speak?

SPEAKER_01 2:41

I wasn't sure if I should admit it, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:47

So I I hadn't heard about this book until you suggested it. And I kind of feel like I should have heard about this book. It seems it seems like a book after re reading more about it, uh, that it's pretty significant in like the the literature canon. So I hadn't certainly not read it, you know, as well as not having heard of it. Um I think it's really beautifully written. It is it's a pretty sad, intense book. I think we were talking about that a little bit before we started recording. So um it was kind of intense to get through. But I think it's uh there's a lot in there, and I think it's really significant and beautiful beautifully written, even though it's dark and sad and intense and important. So I'm I'm glad I'm glad we picked it and I'm glad we're taking the time to discuss it.

SPEAKER_02 3:41

I don't think I read this one before. If I did, I think I completely erased it somehow. So I think this was my first time re-reading this book. Um my first time reading this book. I don't think I was in the right headspace for this book at all. And I don't know if that is the time of my life that I'm in, the time of the world that we're in right now. Because I agree, it's it's really wonderfully written. Like she's it's a tour de force for for the author, but it's it's so just unrelenting in its misery. There's just no joy or optimism anywhere in the book. And I I thought several times while I was reading this of two books that I really love. Um, A Tree Grows in Brooklyn, which we've covered on this podcast, which has so many similarities to this book, uh just top to bottom. There's so much in common with this book. But A Tree Grows in Brooklyn has a more optimistic ending. There's some joy in it. Not to say a happy ending necessarily, but certainly a less depressing ending than this book. The other book that I was reminded of was Wide Sargasso C, which is one of my all-time favorites as well. But definitely also a depressing book that I feel like maybe if I read right now, I would not be in a good space to reread that book again. So I think I think it um it gave me some insight into where my head is right now, I guess, and like what I can handle. But yeah, boy, that's a tough one. And when you said that you kind of had forgotten a lot of it, just remembered that it had a really big impact on you. I can totally see that. Like it would be hard to hang on to the details of this. But I think, you know, walking away just thinking like this is a really well-written book, and I think it's it should be like an important part of the canon, especially when you're looking at well, black authors in the US, but also I think uh multicultural literature that focuses on immigration because I think this is really it tells of a time, it tells of a place really well. I think it it gives you a lot of context for an experience that would be hard to get out of a history book, you know, like this makes it a lot more visceral and real. It's just hard. It's just a hard book.

SPEAKER_03 6:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:24

Brown Girl Brownstones is a coming-of-age novel set in Brooklyn during the 1930s and 1940s. It centers on Selena Boyce, a young girl growing up in a Barbadian immigrant family, and explores the tensions between cultural heritage, personal ambition, and family expectations. Selina is the daughter of Scylla, an indomitable woman who toils at multiple jobs to achieve her dreams of upward mobility and home ownership. And Dayton, a charming but lazy ne'er duel who spends thoughtlessly and chases one pipe dream after another, investing the bare minimum of work in each of his schemes to get rich. She has a sister, Ina, who is beautiful and compliant. The family lives in a brownstone rooming house with other tenants, including a dying old woman, Miss Mary, and a kind but hard-drinking prostitute named Suggy Skeet. Selena is close to the other tenants and often ducks into their rooms for affection and escape from the tension in her household. Selena pushes hard against the expectations of her mother, who dream who dreams of college and medical school for Selena. She resents Silla's ambition and hard edges and idolizes her father in spite of his cheating, failure as a provider, and constant dreaming of an easy life in Barbados. When her father receives notice that he's been bequeathed a house on the island, it sets into motion a series of events that bring the family to near ruin. Dayton talks endlessly about the white-columned house they'll build in Barbados after he makes it big as a trumpet player, which seems extremely unlikely given that he can't really play the trumpet and has failed at all of his previous plans. Scylla begins plotting to wrestle away the home in Barbados from Dayton and selling it so they can buy a home in New York. Scylla succeeds after a year of letter writing and forgery, but upon receiving the $900, she is dependent on Dayton to cash the check. And cash the check he does, immediately spending every cent on frivolous clothing and an expensive trumpet. Scylla's wrath is fearsome to behold, and the marriage is truly broken. Scylla does end up securing funds from a loan shark to buy the home and tries to stand tall in spite of literally everyone in the neighborhood pitying her for Dayton's profligate ways. Dayton is maimed in a factory accident by trying to work a machine he has no training on, ironically, a machine that Scylla is expert in because of her quiet studying of the other workers. Dayton is hospitalized for months and is a hollow shell of himself when he comes home until he finds peace in a local religious cult. He abandons the family to go work in the restaurant run by the cult after he learns Scylla blames him for the death of their son. Once again, Silla's wrath is complete. With Dayton completely checked out of his role as a husband and father, Silla calls the police to inform them that Dayton is in the country illegally. They arrest him and deport him, and Dayton either jumps or falls overboard on the trip to Barbados. Selena begins college classes, though she is still unsure of what she wants to do as she has essentially cut ties with her community in her grief. She attends one meeting of the Association for the Local Community from Barbados and storms out after telling them all. She literally runs into a man 10 years her senior, Clive. He's charming in a cynical way, and she ends up in a relationship with him. Silla tries to warn Selena about Clive, but it only makes her cling to him more and hide the relationship. After making plans to win a scholarship and run off with Clive using the funds, Selena finds out that Clive has no intention of leaving with her. Selena declines the scholarship, again sparking wrath from Silla, and their always tense relationship ruptures completely, but perhaps with some resigned understanding of each other, and Selena leaves to chart her own course.

SPEAKER_00 9:48

Paul Marshall was born Valenza Pauline Burke in Brooklyn, New York on April 9, 1929, to West Indian immigrants Adriana and Samuel Burke. They had come to the United States from Barbados ten years prior. Adriana worked as a housekeeper, Samuel as a salesman and factory worker. Paul was a middle daughter with one sister and one brother. She visited Barbados at age nine and will return to her parents' country of origin multiple times over the years. Paul's father, Samuel, left their family before she entered her teenage years in order to follow the father Jealous Devine, the religious leader of a cult based in Harlem. Paul loved reading and language and used the public library to discover books by St. Gray, Jane Austen, Charles Dickens, Zora Neal Hurston, William Makepeace Thackeray, and Paul Lawrence Dunbar. She changed her name from Pauline to Paul, spelled P-A-U-L-E, but with a silent E. Adriana encouraged Paul to consider secretarial work for a career and noted that the telephone company had recently started hiring black applicants. However, Paul was interested in pursuing writing and literature and studied European literature at Hunter College. Tuberculosis forced her to drop out of her studies for a year, but she returned to school at Brooklyn College and graduated in 1952. She found work as a writer and editor at Our World magazine and married Kenneth E. Marshall in 1957. They had one son, Evan Marshall, and would divorce in 1963. Marshall's first novel was Brown Girl Brownstones, written at the age of 30, and it is often considered the beginning of contemporary black women's writings. She knew and was mentored by Langston Hughes. Marshall married a second time to a man named Nori Minand and acquired a stepdaughter, although her second marriage would also end in divorce. Other works that Marshall produced include The Chosen Place, The Timeless People, Praise Song for the Widow, Daughters, and The Fisher King. Her list of accomplishments and accolades include a MacArthur Fellowship, a Guggenheim Fellowship, a Before Columbus Foundation's American Book Award, and a Lifetime Achievement Award from the Anisefield Wolf Book Awards. She also wrote a memoir entitled Triangular Road in 2009, in which she spoke about her tripartite self consisting of womanness, blackness, and Caribbeann-ness in America. Marshall experienced dementia in the last few years of her life and died August 12th, 2019, in Richmond, Virginia.

SPEAKER_03 12:51

That's interesting. I mean, it it did feel when reading it that she had to pull from like things she knew. So I didn't think it would be her actual father, but I thought maybe like definitely someone she knew, a family she knew, had someone that kind of fell on hard times and then they found solace in a cult.

SPEAKER_00 13:11

I mean, that scene that she wrote where she accompanies her father to Selena meeting. I'm like, this feels very drawn from life. Yeah. Maybe some details were changed, but it feels very somebody sat in a room and went, what the heck is happening? This is terrifying.

SPEAKER_03 13:33

Yeah. And it's so interesting because she is a child in that scene. And you would think a child is like really easily manipulated, but she's the only one in that room that's seen clearly. And you know, it's obviously because the adults for whatever reason that they found themselves in that cult have gone through something. And you know, as I want to say Clive says in the end, is like sometimes you just like things just don't work out, and you feel like you have to give yourself to something else, or like being led by someone else. Oh yeah, that's just how that scene I guess played out. But it was really interesting.

SPEAKER_02 14:12

I mean, Dayton does seem like the kind of person that would join a cult, though. For sure. I do think we should do uh a deep dive into Father Divine. Um, he maybe was born in Rockville.

SPEAKER_05 14:26

Maryland?

SPEAKER_02 14:28

In general. Yeah. So we could do a little PG room research because the the researcher that promotes that belief is basing that on census data. Earlier researchers supposed he was born most likely in Georgia as the son of sharecroppers. But the person that says he was born in Rockville seems to attach him to a name. He he, I guess, really distanced himself from uh giving any actual like details about himself. So I think this could be very interesting. But it definitely looks like she just lifted directly from his kind of nonsense.

SPEAKER_00 15:10

Like so weird that it comes back to some local history.

SPEAKER_03 15:15

I mean, I guess we've kind of gotten into a discussion already about the book. Yeah, no, a cult the cult is, I think, a really interesting part of this book. Another really big aspect of it is the West Indian Barbadian like immigrant diaspora experience. And I do think that that I I don't know, to me, I also feel like there was a nice correlation sort of into like the cult because, and like I said, Clive really like puts it into perspective, I think, towards the end, about how you kind of just want to seek community and kind of be led somewhere. And I feel like you come into a new country and you know absolutely no one, and then you're kind of forced to kind of really work hard and not really and just have like so much of your identity be a detracting force for like upward mobility. So, yeah, you either do something like join, you know, uh create and then join the association, or you kind of give like it's so easy to c give into something like the cult. But did you guys have any specific thoughts about the diaspora experience as Marshall describes it in this book?

SPEAKER_02 16:24

Well, I think it's interesting that you bring up not knowing people when they move here, because I I think that is a feature of a lot of the other immigration stories that we've read. This one, it was interesting to me because there's a conversation that Scylla, Flory, and Iris are having, I believe, in the kitchen that Selena is like listening to, and of course, she gets irritated by because she is irritated by everything that her mother says. But they're talking about how insular the community is in terms of knowing people from back home. And so, like, even things like uh relationships or marriages and stuff seem to be well, he's okay because I knew his, you know, his auntie back home or something like that. So maybe just because the size of Barbados is much smaller than some of the sizes of places that we've read about in some of the other immigration stories. I thought that that was an interesting feature of things where there is still like a network of, oh, we grew up together and now we're in New York together, or yeah, we were play cousins, or I knew so-and-so's mama, so they are okay. And the association is sort of built on that as well. Like it's it's making those connections of the people from back home and it's excluding the people who are also black, at least initially. It's excluding people who are also black but are not from the island, or who are not at least recently from the island, I guess. Which I think is a different look than we've gotten in something like House on Mango Street, where there's more it's a more mixed immigrant community where it's not necessarily that people know each other, like, yes, there's a common language of Spanish, but there may not be any like real concrete connection other than that. And so I thought that that was an interesting feature of that. I also thought it was interesting that you know, Dayton really seemed to be longing for home always. Though, was he really longing for home, or was it just another like escapist sort of because his whole life seems to be oh yeah, well, if I only can just do this, everything's gonna be great. Right. If I was only here, everything would be great. If I was all if I finish this accounting class, I seriously have just zero patience for Dayton. Like what a terrible, terrible husband and father he is. But so much of that element of things seems to be centered with him, whereas the rest of the community seems very much like we left home and we're going to make things better here. Like we're gonna make this like a community for ourselves, and we're gonna make a life for ourselves, and we're gonna like there's a lot of ambitious uh people in this community. Like, even the association, it reminded me of some of the things I've read about uh the Chinese community in California and their establishment of banks. Like that that's one of the things that the association really keys in on is like we're going to develop our own banking system with credit for our people so that we're not getting ripped off. I thought it was funny that 6% was the like rip-off loan. Many people would be thrilled to get a 6% loan on most things from a loan shark these days. But you know, back then that was viewed as like a predatory amount to charge somebody on their loan. And so I thought that was interesting as well. I I learned a lot in this book, I think, about uh Barbados and sort of their diaspora, because that is not a community that I've really read about before. You know, certainly we talk about like the Caribbean diaspora sort of writ large, but like really honing in on one specific community like this, I thought was a really interesting and and like for me eye-opening read because I just had zero familiarity with that experience or history. Um so that was really interesting.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

No, I really um sorry. I'm going to try not to preface everything I say with, well, I haven't finished the book. So that was me getting that out. Um but I really actually like that they had kind of touched on the specifically the Barbadian immigrant experience because like I don't think I've ever come across anything like that. Like, even like the country of Barbados is not something or the island of Barbados is not something that I was really familiar with until like Rihanna. So like for this this this body of work to have that have ex had existed before even that, I think it's actually pretty interesting. And also, like, you know, I always talk about my mom is from Sierra Leone and my dad is from Guinea in West Africa, and like I don't think I've really come across any works of literature that kind of touch on those types of immigrant experiences as well. So I like when I read a book that touches on a place that maybe is like underrepresented when it comes to the immigrant experience, and I can still find like similarities in like their experience and maybe like what my parents experienced, especially with like um like, oh we know these people from back home, so like we're all here now, so it's like over family. Like, this is my cousin, this is my aunt. Like, I got hella aunts and uncles that How are y'all related? I don't know. My parents know them from back home, or they know each other's family. Or this, this, this. Um, one thing that I thought was funny was when I think Dayton was trying to get ready to go out for the night and like Shugi was nicking uh codfish and he's like, I want my clothes to smell like the fish, and I'm like, that's just such a like experience of like, ah dang. My mom's always like, girl, I'm cooking. You might want to make sure you get your clothes out, or just step out or take some perfume with you before you go out. And I'm like, I felt that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:27

But specifically, he says because he it marks him as a foreigner, right? Yeah, similarly, I mean like it's I look to this and I try to relate it to what I do know. And similarly, like my parents come from El Salvador, which is also a really small country, and it seems like they kind of like that Salvadoran community seems to have found it each other in like small pockets in the US. So I know LA has a really big population of Salvadorans, so does Texas. And then kind of an anomaly to me is the DMB area. So it is really interesting because it is that way. Like it seems like you could bring someone up and then they'll be like, oh, I kind of I know that person's family, like my cousin's like husband, or you know, like it's always something like removed, but they just happen to know because it's such a like insular community. Um, so yeah, I did really enjoy, you know, being able to access their experience in that way. The other thing that I thought was really interesting that Paul kind of touched on was how each immigrant community seemed to like seemed to model themselves a little bit after their predecessors, right? Because there was like an immigrant community in the brownstones, and then they moved on. Right. Right? They got they like moved on up. And that's sort of like They went to Crown Heights, and then yeah. And so then it just became like a kind of like a ladder, like a um it modeled for them like what their next step was gonna be. And I thought that that was really interesting because that's an experience that I wouldn't really know much about. And it was just really interesting to kind of see that and have it be discussed in the way that it was. And that's why I was like, yeah, it'd be really interesting to have a deep dive into all the different like immigration waves in New York, especially because I feel like that is a really like well-known hub for immigration. Yeah. I don't know. Migration's such a wonderful thing. I don't so annoying to see not I mean, I feel like annoying is kind of like a trite way to say it, but you know what I mean? Like it's just really frustrating to like know that there are people out there that think about it as like such a negative thing.

SPEAKER_01 24:37

But yeah, it's unfortunate and also they're just racists.

SPEAKER_03 24:40

I mean, yeah. But I mean, this book really shows like how like a community can do that even within themselves, because once you've established an in-group, there always seems to be an out group. Um even if they had the same immigrant experience, they'll be really quick to mark themselves as different than someone else, right? Because it's their ambition that they're like, oh, well, we're ambitious, we have all these things that we want to do. And then they'll like call someone else like lazy and like they don't really like embody like the American dream. Like they don't deserve to move up in the way that we do. There's always like that sort of continuing tension.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

Or like if I could do it, why can't you at this point? I did it the hard way.

SPEAKER_02 25:24

Yeah. Yeah. No, that's definitely true. You see that multiple times in the book, like the divisions within the community where and and some of that's based on skin color. Like there's certainly we see a lot of colorism in the book, you know, and that's across the spectrum. Like sometimes it's the old folks that have been there for a while, like Beryl's dad, and you know, being kind of proud or trading on their being lighter skinned. But then you see it sort of in trickle down as well because there's this like expectation that, you know, like uh Aina, for example, the boy that she ends up getting engaged to, Edwin, I believe, he's not from Barbados, but they're gonna like be okay with that because he's fairly light-skinned. And so she I there's a pretty horrible line in there where it was like, I think Selena said something that like she's not gonna make darker babies or something with him. And so, yeah, he's not ideal because he's not from back home or the child of somebody from back home. But as far as it goes, like if you have to be with a black American, it's good that he's, you know, lighter skinned. Um and of course, there's a lot of color references and descriptions of people in the books, you know, referring to one person as more yellow, referring to someone as that red woman so-and-so. And so like color is very at the forefront, even in that small community, and and does seem to make like a dividing line in terms of ambition and what's expected of people.

SPEAKER_01 27:06

Even from when they're kids, because like when uh Selena is outside playing with Iris, I know not not Iris, sorry, when Selena's outside playing with barrel. I was about to say Berwin. Barrel. She's outside playing with barrel and barrel's like, yeah, my mom says I'm getting uh dark from running around with you in the sun, let's go find some shade. And I'm just like, dang.

unknown 27:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:26

And I know that's a common thing that people say to their kids, but it's still just like, dang, like it really starts really young. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:33

Yeah. I was just remembering that part. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:36

See, look at me, contributing.

SPEAKER_02 27:38

Yeah. Well, and then I think also, Darlene, what you said about the ambition and like what people are striving for in the community differing as well. And so, like, yeah, Beryl's dad is like, he wants to be a politician and he's, you know, he's formed this association and he has this real clout in the community. And, you know, they're one of the first families to kind of move on and move up. And then homeownership seems to be a real dividing line where like, if you've done that, you've kind of made it. Like Scylla talks about how, like, well, they just bought it going to the loan shark, but it still kind of makes them better than me. Like, and and the, you know, generally I think everyone knows Dayton's no good, right? Like, he has zero ambition that makes any sense. I mean, he certainly like has all these pipe dreams, but like none of those things can actually happen and everybody knows it. The kids. Yeah. Like, and so I think while the community sort of recognizes, like, oh, he's handsome and charming, they're like, nah, he's no good. Like, and that's too bad for Scylla because she's a hard-working woman that gets it. You know, like she does have ambition. She's gonna try to buy a house and he's holding her back. Yeah, I think it's it is interesting, those divisions within the community, like the weddings. That is another funny thing. Oh my god, yeah. Um Gaitha has this ginormous wedding for her daughter. Oh, it was Gaitha.

SPEAKER_03 29:10

In my head, I thought it was Gatha or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 29:13

Like short and Agatha Gaitha in the audio, but but that could be wrong. The short for Agatha would make a lot more sense.

SPEAKER_03 29:21

Yeah, but that's that pronunciation sounds better because I was like, in my head, I guess I Gatha.

SPEAKER_05 29:26

And I was like, that sounds weird.

SPEAKER_03 29:29

Yeah, or like it doesn't roll off the tongue, rather. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:32

But like her daughter, that poor girl who seemed so miserable at her own wedding. But you know, you know, she's gonna have this huge like to impress the community. It's like, no, you have to show out for this because that is part of your status in the community. And you're like the well-off person in the community. You've got to make this like the biggest thing. But then they're at the party and at the reception, I I don't remember if it was Flory or Iris, but one of them's like, she didn't even get any rice and peas. She didn't even have this. She's here with her like chicken and mashed potatoes kind of thing. She didn't even have any good food. Everyone's a critic. Well, yes, they are, but then the like Selena makes the observation that, like, but they were all impressed. Yeah. And so, like, yeah, they're going to say all of that to sort of cut it down so they're not feeling bad that they can't provide that. Like, they say, like, you know, she's just trying to be white kind of thing. But at the same time, they're they are envious of like that she's able to afford all of these things and these dresses and like actually linear.

SPEAKER_03 30:45

Yeah, I love that Paul does that through Selena's eyes, that observation. Because I I do think there's so much context that you miss out if you're not part of a community. And so, like, if it was just that dialogue, then yes, you would think she was just being judgmental and that was it. But not that it was tinged with any sort of jealousy. But it's like Selena being part of that community knows exactly kind of like outwardly, this is what you're saying, but like this is kind of the underlying message behind that. And I also, yeah, like she's so perceptive, you know, despite being so young, because she also clocked that it was like it was more for the mother. And then she was even saying, like, same thing for her own mother. She's like, really, this is like a tour, like she's going around to the community and she's being upheld, and like that her father, Dayton, like everyone is like speaking negatively of him, and it's sort of this like it's it's like all a show, really. Um, and then at some point, Scylla does get kind of tired of the performance of it.

SPEAKER_02 31:49

Yeah, because every person is like, man, we're really sorry, Dayton's such a loser. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:54

Like and at some point there's like a longing for like. I wish I was here with my husband. I wish he was a good one.

SPEAKER_02 32:03

Yeah, it sucks.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

You know, things for reminding me at every point. It's so awkward that I because I think they're they're all wearing like the dresses that he wasted the money on. Yeah. Um and I guess they're I mean, I guess they have them. They mean they might as well wear them, but like what a like a sort of a like a signifier. To wear them and see them and know that where they came from. And I don't think they even I mean because they can't afford something that nice. They're wearing the the reminders of you know the thing that happened that apparently everybody in the community also knows about.

SPEAKER_03 32:41

I love that like just like any rumor, it like increases. It's like he spent almost a thousand. He's a thousand dollars. Yeah. I w going back, I I did want to say I dislike Beryl's dad. Because like I think at some point later on, Beryl's like, yeah, I don't know if I want to be a lawyer or a doctor. And um, Selena's like, well, what do you want to be? Because every time you start something, it's my dad said. And he said, like, yes, like being a doctor is respectable, but also being a lawyer, like I guess will keep you employed because your people will always need you, but I or like your people will always keep you employed. And it almost made it seem like like you can exploit your own people. That's how I took it.

SPEAKER_02 33:28

But that comes out multiple times in the book. Like Scylla's really straightforward about that because Selena's so mad about you know the the whole idea of sort of coming up on the back of the rooming house people and whatnot, and that that's not okay. Like, and Scylla sort of takes two arguments. One that like, well, they're not really our people, they're just also black, um, is sort of her stance on why it's okay to like be yelling at them all the time once they once she has more people move in when uh Mary dies and when Suggy she has her evicted, and that that somehow makes it okay. But also she's kind of saying like no one gets anywhere unless they've sort of stepped on the backs of others. Like either you're doing the stepping or you're getting stepped on. And Selena's mad about that, but like at the same time, Selena kind of does that too. I mean, Selena's so like her mother. Like, I know they say, oh, she's Dayton's daughter because of her looks, but her core, she and Silla are so similar in a lot of ways, and it's why they just can't ever get along. I just felt bad for Silla. I know she's problematic too. She is not a loving mother. She is, you know, she is just hard-edged, and but she works so hard. I mean, it's the same thing we see with Katie Nolan in Tree Grows in Brooklyn, though I think Katie retains a little bit more softness than Scylla, and I think that she does try to make some moments of joy for her children, where Scylla really doesn't. But I that poor woman. Like Dayton is worthless. Worthless. Like we don't see him contribute in any meaningful way at any time. He's just he's a hee-hoore.

SPEAKER_01 35:39

I was gonna say, I'm like, you are gonna make it home or say that. And you are there being a whore, like he whore.

SPEAKER_03 35:47

Yeah. And yeah, like you said, yeah, like you said, it's it's really hard. Like it's really, uh, I think Paul did a really good job of making her, you know, there are many unlikable qualities to her, but then she's also really complex and you have a lot of compassion for her because you know the life she lived. And I I think there's like this thing with Anselina that she's like, I almost can understand her, but I can't quite understand her. And it's because she's never really had to deal with the exact level of like hardship that her mom has, right? Because with every generation, ideally things are getting a little bit easier. And so you don't have to make those like really difficult choices. But then Selena does. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:31

So that's that's the thing I want to ask y'all about because Selena does at times kind of drift into an understanding on some level of her mom, but there is never any grace given or any forgiveness. Yeah, and it's so good. And Selena does the same thing. Like her going after that scholarship from the association because she wants to run off with the guy. Like, that's a that's a shitty thing to do. Yeah. Right? Like, she has no intention of using the money for what it's for. So she's gonna rip off her whole community, which she's furious at Scylla about doing that with the rumors and like charging them too much or like being too hard on them. But then she's gonna do the exact same thing. Why? Because it's what she wants. Like that's not even a good thing to get. Like, that's not even for others, it's just for her because she wants to be with Clive. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:26

And also because she almost like doesn't have the same compassion for them. It's almost like she's already established in her mind that they're not good people, that all of them have stepped on someone else and they're all followers and all of these. Yeah, so they deserve it. Whereas she got to really know the people that were boarding in the house. And so she has that sense of compassion for them. And also like none of them are in a good position in life. So, you know, uh, there isn't like a they already have enough. It's like she's seeing them for like, wow, you have nothing except this house. Like you barely have a community, and so it's just easier for her to have compassion for them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:12

She's full of forgiveness for Dayton.

SPEAKER_03 38:14

I know. For all people. Yeah, I know. And it's like it's so weird because it's like she recognizes like the same thing with her mom. She like recognizes many things about her, she even respects her to some extent as well. But it's like she never it never crosses into like a full understanding or like a full like embrace of her mother. Um, but with Dayton, she also recognizes like kind of his recklessness, like the way that he is maybe falling short and how he like shows his love for his family and how much he provides for his family. But yeah, I think because he's so sympathetic, right? Like he can't help himself that he's a dreamer. So she feels like she can't do the hook for that. And and then he dies, you know, unexpectedly. And so then he's canonized as like, well, he just tried his and she blames Scylla for it.

SPEAKER_02 39:04

Right. And like, yes, Scylla did call to get him deported from the cult place, which maybe that wasn't great, but like at the same time, he has completely abandoned their family. He's contributing nothing. The only thing that's happening at that point is he's basically he has Selena going on the regular to just sit there at the restaurant. You know, so he's still pulling her away from Silla and from her community in this weird way. I mean, it was it crossed the line to call the police on him, probably, like just let him go. But at the same time, she didn't make him jump off the boat. And I think we are meant to believe that he jumped, right?

SPEAKER_03 39:52

Yeah, I think even Selena feels that way. It was either her or something about the narration made it seem like that was what it was. That, oh, it was Shuggy that feels like that's probably what happened. Because she was something she said something like, It's the same reason your father probably jumped off the boat because he could he wouldn't be able to face the criticism and the rumors and everything, like people talking when he got home. And she's like, That's the reason why I wouldn't go back home. So I think, yeah, my understanding is that he jumped.

SPEAKER_02 40:26

Yeah, and that the going home was always a pipe dream too, right? Like it was just romanticizing the thing that you the place you're not, right? And he never ever gets satisfied with where he is. And Scylla doesn't either, I guess, in certain ways, but like she's trying to do better for her kids and stuff. Like they do have a hard life, and so it her life is hard. Dayton's really isn't, because someone else is putting the food on the table, someone else is making the money that he's then taking to buy concubines or his silk, yeah, his silk undergarments. I hated that guy. Seriously.

SPEAKER_00 41:07

I mean, I he it's hard to it's it's hard it's hard to cope with the fact that he literally told Selena not to call him daddy at breakfast because he's brother. He's brother boyce. There's only one father or whatever he said. Oh, brother.

SPEAKER_02 41:29

Yeah, no, that was banana. And then Sylla's like, who are they supposed to call daddy that?

SPEAKER_00 41:34

She was like, Daddy, can you please pass the butter? He's like, Don't call me daddy. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like, this is your daughter.

SPEAKER_02 41:42

What are you doing? And the cult thing, I wondered too, did you all get the impression that some of that, like Dayton is fundamentally very childish and impulsive, and like he doesn't behave like he's grown in any way. It's like how you would expect like a teen boy to act, like he cares about women and ass cars and like fancy clothes. And like his own.

SPEAKER_03 42:10

And he's very like obsessed with the idea of manhood and how that's presented, and like how easy it is for like younger people to access or something. I don't know. Which is crazy for a man that wasn't providing. Yeah, he kept bringing up manhood, and I'm like, yeah, in just a acting like a man. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:27

Like with the cult, he just found a different place that sort of dealt with that for him. Like he is being treated like a child there, right? Someone else is like telling him what to do, but they're doing it in this way of like, but you'll get all these good things if you do this, versus Scylla, who goes at him as like, I need you to do XYZ because it's it's catastrophic if you don't. And then he's just like, screw you, I'm gonna do what I want. But the cult, because it's kind of like feeding into that sort of pipe dream mentality, he's compliant with them and like goes along like a kid.

SPEAKER_00 43:07

I think his despair, you know, manifested into like daydreams and pipe dreams. Not that it excuses it, but I think that's just a lot of people.

SPEAKER_02 43:15

But why was he so despairing before he maimed his arm, which was also his own fault?

SPEAKER_00 43:21

Like, what was so bad? I mean, I know he talked about like wanting to like show up for a job and to be treated with the respect that like a white man would be treated. I'm sure that that also dysfectorial.

SPEAKER_02 43:37

What you were saying about him being so obsessed with manhood. I thought this book, much like A Tree Grows in Brooklyn, gave really interesting depictions of womanhood and sexuality. Like this was a really interesting book from um, you know, we have the whole thing with Selena not having started her period yet, and Beryl gets it. But there's a lot of like romanticizing sort of the mythos of like, you know, coming in. Into yourself with womanhood.

SPEAKER_01 44:07

And you get a I think she said something that made it seem like you get like your your your your body or something like that, like your grown woman body essentially is kind of what she made it seem like.

SPEAKER_00 44:16

Then if you don't get it by 20, you die. You die. Until I was like, I'm never gonna do that. I'm like, that's very relatable. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:24

And like on sexuality, so we again the we have different depictions of you've got Shuggy, who is a prostitute. I mean, I know she kind of like And her first time was at 12, right? Yeah. But she presents that as like consensual on her part. She was like, I love it. Yeah, I just I have feelings and I was gonna, you know, get with this boy. I mean, she didn't say it was an adult or anything, but like, you know, she she just says that she runs hot and that like that's how she is. So she's very much like Sissy and Tree Grows in Brooklyn, though Sissy is not, you know, a prostitute, technically, I guess. She's more like a kept woman.

SPEAKER_01 45:05

Um, at a condom factory, worked at a condom. How convenient?

SPEAKER_02 45:10

But it is that same sort of like really free and easy with their um sexuality and their femininity. And Selena, I think, in a lot of ways romanticizes that about Shugi. I mean, I think she she doesn't really, I don't know. I wouldn't say that she doesn't judge her like Silla does, because she does kind of judge her, but at the same time, she also admires like how good she smells and how like in touch with her body she is and the way she looks and the way she moves and you know, the way that she relates to the men that she brings up to her room. But then we also have Selena loses her virginity in the uh scene with Clive on a park bench. Yeah, which oh that sounds really uncomfortable. But she's cool with it, like she she has herself a time, I guess. Like I wouldn't wouldn't be my pick of the place that that you have your first time with anybody, but yeah, on a park bench, I guess they didn't have anywhere else to go. But she's sort of the initiator with that. Like he's not pushing, and then I think he says something like, This wasn't really my plan, you know, like I wasn't trying to take advantage here. So she's she ends up being pretty in touch with her own body too. And then her schoolmate, who also was pretty young, I think, when she was talking about, oh yeah, me and the boy, like, yep, my parents left him. Well, you know, one thing led to another, and yep, there we go. We were basically engaged. Yeah. Just without the ring. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:51

And it's like, you're like 14. He's like, we're basically engaged, so he said it's okay. And I'm like, I bet he did.

SPEAKER_00 46:59

You're like, yeah, that uh that seems like something that might be said if he wants you to do something. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:06

And then you also have Scylla, where she has, she also I think is very in touch with her body and her her sexuality and her yearning, but she she regrets that she went to bed with Dayton again when things were so bad. And she was like, I let him trick me, basically. And that was before he took the m he stole the money. And and she regrets that for the rest of the book. Like I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_03 47:41

That was really hard, like of a passage too, because it was kind of like because she didn't yet know like exactly what he had done.

SPEAKER_02 47:48

And she was like, But she knew it was bad because he wasn't coming home and he should have been home already. And why isn't he home? And so I think she was thinking he ran off with the money. Like he's never, I think she says he's never coming home. And the girls are trying to convince her, like, yeah, he is. Honestly, you should have just stayed gone.

SPEAKER_03 48:05

It would have been better if you took the money and left Dayton because kind of throw it in her face in the way that he did is.

SPEAKER_02 48:15

He was taunting her with it, which was just That was a hard scene. And like, no, I guess she shouldn't have like forged all of the stuff and taken the house money. But like seriously, he owed his family that after all of his years of not providing and not contributing and taking their money that she may like his his plan wasn't a good plan. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 48:41

I was gonna say just for her to end up having to go to a loan shark anyway, it's like she could have just did that from jump.

SPEAKER_03 48:47

Yeah. And I mean, like, it's so hard because she knew like she's known him for so long. Like she knew that they were never gonna go back to Barbados and like actually utilize that land. Like no, she knew it was another pipe chamber that he had. So it was like, are we really gonna sit on this when we are here? And like we should focus on the here now.

SPEAKER_00 49:09

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they weren't they certainly were not working together the way a a married couple should.

SPEAKER_02 49:17

No, it's a real toxic relationship.

SPEAKER_03 49:19

It's hard because generationally, like you come to a new country, things are really difficult, things really are pretty black and white, it's do or don't. And when you do like then you have children and they have it a little easier because you've already you're kind of establishing things for them. And so yeah, they have all this time to like get an education and think. And so yeah, then there's that sort of disconnect now. Like, I don't know how to relate to someone that is so black and white, that is so like it's either us or them, you know, like versus someone that can like sit, think, empathize. So yeah, the tension between them to me felt like very real to like how an immigrant experience would be with like first generation. I guess the mom wouldn't be first generation, like I think is it considered like 0.5. And then I don't know if Selena was born in Barbados or was she born in the bigger.

SPEAKER_02 50:22

No, I think she was born in New York because I think Scylla came when she was 18. She's right.

SPEAKER_00 50:27

Yeah, I think um I think the whole I think she and her deceased brother and sister were all born there. I think it was yeah. I think the family is, I think, a pretty perfect mirror almost of the author's family.

SPEAKER_03 50:41

Yeah, so she's like first generation, so yeah, just growing up in a different culture and kind of picking up different things and just like that kind of moving you a little bit further away from like an understanding of your parents. Really, yeah, did make sense. But it was just I also thought their the tension between them was really interesting because it's like it is very specific to an immigrant experience, but then it's so reminiscent of like other like mother fraught mother-daughter relationships that I guess we've probably either seen or read about. Because I'm thinking of like whose else was pretty fraught. I mean, how the Garcia girls lost their accents. That kind of had a similar thing of like kind of going back home to kind of find your identity.

SPEAKER_02 51:26

And then because yo does that well at the beginning, which is really the end. Right.

SPEAKER_03 51:31

Yeah. And then I was thinking of like Ladybird and oh my god, real women have curves. There's just like a lot of like fraught relationships between mothers and daughters, and it's always like a generational thing. Yeah, Joy Lat Club, yeah, just very generational of like you're of a generation that kind of like has to like basically set a foundation, and then the other one is like, well, I'm bearing fruit to your foundation, and now I'm like, now I'm judging you and resenting you for certain things that you want for me because I'm my own person. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 52:04

Well, and Selena's so black and white too, and so you know, she is very not in the shades of gray. She's like, My mom is bad, my dad is good. That's true. Like the association people are bad, like people who aren't in this association but are also black are good. Like the tenants are good, my mom is bad.

SPEAKER_03 52:25

Like, there's just I guess I see a bit more of a shift on her than I do in Scylla. So it's almost like each generation, it's like you're kind of like moving a little bit more.

SPEAKER_02 52:36

I mean, I think Scylla gets progressively worse as the book goes with being entrenched in her anger.

SPEAKER_03 52:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:44

But I also understand why. Like Dayton just he ruins things. Like time and again, he ruins things, and she's left to like try to fix it and pick up the pieces, and every time she tries, he ruins it again, and then he dies, and she does have guilt over that. And that's why when Selena is blaming her for it, like it lands the same way that when she blames Dayton for the son dying, it lands because there is guilt there. Yeah, I don't know, they're just so similar to each other personality-wise, that it's it's hard to read it where they're just kind of always going at each other because it's like, gosh, just find some understanding for each other here because you are really similar people. And you just can't. Oh, you know who it kind of actually poet X when you said that, like that the mother-daughter relationship there, there's a lot of similarities like to what you're saying with the mom is trying to hang on and cling and like make things good for her kids, but they're just like X is like buckling, like Ciamara's like, no, I gotta live my own life. I need you don't understand me. And yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:04

Yeah. And I think the other thing that comes up in this one and is said more explicitly is that sort of possessiveness that the mother then has over the child and like feeling like everything else is getting in the way of you like finally being hers, right? So there's a after she Selena confronts her about, but you know, like essentially what she did leading to Dayton's death, like holding her and then saying, like, it felt like Scylla was sort of in that moment establishing like a possessiveness over her, like you're finally mine, because she it kind of did feel like there was some sort of competition with the dad over her affection, over Selena's affection.

SPEAKER_02 54:44

But then she had that same issue with I think jealousy towards Mary and Shoogie. Yeah. Cause she's like, Why are you always going to them? Like, why do you go sit with them and talk to them and you won't like do that with me? And yeah. And so then she gets them out of the picture. And obviously Selena still doesn't connect to her.

SPEAKER_03 55:08

So yeah, I know you said that maybe you don't think that there is really a happy ending, but I I do think that her breaking off with Clive is sort of well, yeah. I guess that's good. I mean, that was a good choice. Yeah, it almost felt like it could have like he could have been her Dayton. And so, I mean, granted, a uh a more thoughtful one, like someone that like is a bit more self-aware, and I don't know, like Clive was just kind of an edge-lord.

SPEAKER_02 55:42

Like he's just kind of yeah, a guy that's just gonna be no fun because he's always gonna be like, Oh yeah, they're just doing that because of this reason, or like people are just like he's been a downer, which is you know, that kind of older person with that vibe is cool, I guess, when you're a teenager and you don't see through that, but it's not a good thing. Seems probably seems very sophisticated when you're you know a teenager.

SPEAKER_00 56:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:10

I don't know though what is happening to her at the end. I mean, yeah, she's not with Clive because he he broke her heart, I guess, because he was never planning to go anywhere with her. She also doesn't have the money because she didn't take it. She did tell the association, yeah, I was just conning you guys. And but then she's still kind of like screw y'all, and then like leaves, you know, like she still doesn't have that connection.

SPEAKER_03 56:35

I thought it was gonna be that like she joins the association and then she realizes that she kind of really does want that community, and it almost seemed like that's where it was kind of going. And then it doesn't. And then it doesn't. And then yeah, and an a book that I kept comparing it to as I was reading was How the Garcia Girls Lost Their Accents. And so when she at the end goes to Barbados, I was like, oh, it's kind of like Yo at the beginning of How the Garcia Girls Lost Her Accents, kind of going back to Dominican Republic and um trying to find her identity that way. But yo has family background.

SPEAKER_02 57:10

She has a connection, they've gone. Like she's been there recently, like as a teenager and stuff. And there's zero connection for Selena. Yeah. So it's like, what's the plan here? Yeah. You're gonna go to this island where you don't know anybody and what? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:28

Like, she's going off vibes.

SPEAKER_02 57:31

Yeah, I just I don't know. I felt like the end was like, I'm going to fulfill my dad's dream now. And it's like, no, you're not, because that was always a lie.

SPEAKER_03 57:42

Like I feel like you know he jumped off because he didn't actually want to go back. But then maybe she thinks like, oh, well, he didn't want to do that because he hadn't really established himself. So like he did want to go back just as a bigger person, as like someone that would be respected when he got there, and that's not what he was going back as.

SPEAKER_02 58:04

He wanted to be the big sportsman, is what so I always said it was you're just trying to be a big sportsman with your car and your wanting a glossary.

SPEAKER_03 58:15

I mean, you could figure out what you're doing. Yeah, because I wanted to know like what exactly is a context of beautiful ugly. Yeah, like I was. Where did that come from? And like what are you trying to convey with it?

SPEAKER_02 58:25

Because I was like, I feel like it was just used for like handsome, but then I was like I I thought she was saying like you're pretty on the outside, but ugly on the inside.

SPEAKER_00 58:37

There there was there was some like just like rich like phrasing in there, like some of which I got and some of which was like I need to, I need to like look into this a little more.

SPEAKER_02 58:48

C and sedir stood for. Like, because I thought initially when I was listening rather than reading that it was like S apostrophe dear, like so dear, you know, that it was like that, but it's C apostrophe once you're reading it. And I was like, what does the C stand for? Like what's being truncated? I never figured that out.

SPEAKER_01 59:13

So from Barbados PocketGuy.com, they have a um a dictionary of Bahan dialect phrases, and one of them on here is says Kadir. So it says cuh-deer. It says the meaning is poor fellow, show of empathy in someone.

SPEAKER_03 59:34

All right. So that was a really nice discussion on this book. Do you feel like it holds up and would you recommend this book?

SPEAKER_02 59:43

Yes and yes, but boy, I would really caution somebody like it's heavy. You know, I don't think this would be one where if somebody asked for a beach read, I'd be like, have you read this one? Because like that does not like it, you would have to be looking for something where you could handle like the emotional heft of it.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:02

Unless this is a person who's like, I like to read War and Peace and other like really dense, um heavy, intense books on the beach. Cause there is an occasional person who doesn't, but yeah, it's not your average beat read.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:19

Yeah. I think I'd also like mention probably my experience with it of like you may read it once and like maybe gain something from it, but not truly understand until maybe like another reread a few years later. Yeah. Cause I I just I feel like this book is so densely packed with so many themes and so many things that maybe at a certain age you won't get all of the context, and you probably need just a few more years of life to like understand um some parts of it. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:50

Yeah, this one I don't know that I would necessarily recommend this to anyone pre-college. Like I do feel like it's it's heavy and it's complex.

unknown 1:01:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:04

You know, despite knowing the whole book and how it all ends, I still want to go back and finish it.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:08

So oh, you should. I mean, it's it's a very worthwhile read.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:12

It's just hard. Yeah. And she writes beautifully, which also makes it like not hard to read, but hard to like read in a time crunch.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:23

Yeah, yeah. It's not a popcorn book.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:25

No, there's really dense dialogue that's totally believable. Like she has a real ear for how people talk to each other. But there's also just really beautiful prose in there, too. Like her descriptions of things are fabulous.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:38

Just like this sense of like of every every character she talks about. Like, like I mean, down to like Selena sitting there and the wedding feeling uncomfortable because she doesn't like the color of her dress and the childish bow, and she's feeling too old to play with the kids, but too young to be like with the older, more womanly people. To like every every character and their their struggles and their dreams and their worries and their thought. Like it's just everything is just so well drawn.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:11

All right. Each episode we ask whether our book passes the Bechtel test. The Bechtel test asks whether a work features two female characters who talk to each other about something that doesn't involve men or boys. Do we think it passes?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:27

Yeah, I think so. I think so too. Multiple times.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:31

Yeah.

unknown 1:02:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:33

Yeah. I think even just her conversations with the other tenants and like talking about her mom. Uh, because and like it's so funny because I think she would literally probably talk to them about so many other things that when she uh she finally asks Shuggy outright, like, do you think a boy will ever love me? She's like, Oh my god, finally I thought that that had passed you by or something. So clearly they were having conversations that were not dealing with boys. Although I guess part of it was her dad, but I mean, when your life is so insular as a kid because you only know but so many people, like, yeah, I'm sure man features in what you're talking about, but her interest in boys didn't come until later.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:15

Well, that's it for this episode of These Books Made Me. Join us next time when we'll discuss a book in which a girl bashes a monster in the head with a frying pan. If you think you know which book we're tackling next, or if you just want to talk to us, you can find us on Instagram. We're at TheseBooksMade Me.