The Egypt Game

Were you obsessed with antiquity, myths, and homemade costumes when you were a child? If so, have we got the book for you! This episode we revisit an oldie but a goodie: Zilpha Keatley Snyder's classic children's book, The Egypt Game. We love the nuanced characters, genuinely exciting and surprising plot twists, and relate to Melanie and April's love of imagination games. Hannah relates to being "the keeper of the lashes" even though we all bemoan the health and safety concerns of continuously recycled fake lashes. We enjoyed the hijinks of our core group of five "Egyptians" (plus Security the octopus) and are thrilled by the depiction of a good librarian. We talk about the blending of pretty dark topics (parental abandonment, an actual murder of a child) with the delight of childhood imagination, friendships, and accepting others for who they are and the importance of feeling understood. 

These Books Made Me is a podcast about the literary heroines who shaped us and is a product of the Prince George's County Memorial Library System podcast network. Stay in touch with us via #TheseBooksMadeMe on socials, follow us on Instagram @TheseBooksMadeMe or reach out by email at TheseBooksMadeMe@pgcmls.info. 

For recommended readalikes and deep dives into topics related to each episode, visit our blog at https://pgcmls.medium.com/.

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:10

Hi, I'm Hawa. I'm Heather. I'm Darlene.

SPEAKER_02 0:13

And I'm Hannah.

SPEAKER_04 0:14

And this is our podcast, These Books Made Me. Today, for our opening episode of season six, we're going to be talking about the Egypt Game by Zilfa Keatley Snyder. Friendly warning as always: this podcast contains spoilers. If you don't yet know who has a stuffed octopus named Security, proceed with caution.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

So let's get into our first question. What did this book mean to you? And was this everyone's first time reading? If not, how did this reread compare to your memories of reading it when you were younger?

SPEAKER_04 0:41

I hadn't even heard of this book until we were reading. I didn't either. Which honestly, when I heard when it came out, it kind of made sense. Like 60s, I think. Yeah. 58. 67. 68. 51 years. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

So some things come back in pop culture. So, but I've never heard of this game until you guys put it on there. I was actually kind of sad about it because as I was reading it, I was like, I would have loved this as a kid. I loved this as a kid.

SPEAKER_02 1:07

That was my yeah. So I read it as a kid, obviously. It's so cheesy right now. It's so cute. Um, so this was definitely this was a library book that I checked out when I was little. I loved it then. I identified so much with Melanie. She is very much the kind of kid I was. And I think just the friendship between April and Melanie, and then, you know, the satellite kids that are part of that group. You know, when I found my person when I was in fourth grade and I found my April, it just clicked for me. You know, like I was hoping to find somebody like that. And then when I did, and I found that person that really was on the same wavelength as me and did and lived in books the same way that I did. It just, it was great. Like this, this book just really resonated for me. And and it still does. Like I I read it and again, and you know, I read it when my kids were kids and reading it again as an adult, I still think it's a gem and it still really connects for me. When I was making my notes for the book, there were several times where I just copied down a phrase because I thought it was so incisive. She just really captures things sometimes really, really well, especially like hard to pinpoint things. I think she really does a great job of hanging words on it. So yeah, I love this book. I'm really glad that we're talking about it today. Yeah. Thanks for letting me bring this book back. Maybe we will make it a trend. Right. I don't know. Let's make fetch happen.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

Yeah, absolutely. Stop trying to make fetch happen. It's not going to happen. Similarly to how well, I've never read this book. Yeah, when I was reading it, I mean, honestly, hearing Heather talk about it kind of legitimizes like kind of what I thought about it, which is like, I felt like if I read this as a kid, it would have resonated as someone that really had an overactive imagination. I don't know. I just found that like so nicely put in this book. Yeah, I felt seen in it and I was like too like so many years almost too late. But I still really enjoyed it. And yeah, I I hope now I definitely have another book to like recommend to kids if um they come in and have any questions about like a really fun, um imaginative book.

SPEAKER_05 3:30

So it turns out I never read the book. I just, it was one of those books that like you see the name go by so many times that you're like, maybe I read it, maybe I didn't. So I never read this. Um it was it was a very engaging, fun read. I I don't know how how where she learned to write. She just does amazing character studies of kids that pull you in immediately. Um although it's focused on kids, you get like a wonderful sense of like even just the adults that kind of touch into parts of their lives. I thought it was very fun. I was reading the book and I was just kind of waiting. I was like, so is it gonna be like humans that are causing moving the plot along only, or is there gonna be supernatural stuff? So I I was very excited to see what happened. And I know we'll get into the discussion, but I was like, is there gonna be actual like stuff that's going to like come out of the altar at some point? Um, you know, I I couldn't wait to see what's gonna happen. It was a fun read.

transition to plot

SPEAKER_02 4:34

11-year-old first stole-wearing fake eyelash batting April Hall moves to a new California town to live with her grandmother while her glamorous globe-trotting mother pursues an acting career. April is dramatic, a little rough around the edges, and desperately trying to not show she's a little lonely until she meets Melanie Ross, a same-age neighbor who becomes her first real friend. Melanie is imaginative but shrewd and intuitive about people. When the two girls discover they both love all things ancient Egypt, a simple shared interest quickly turns into something much bigger, an elaborate imagination game. Behind the mysterious A-Z antique shop owned by the quiet and mysterious professor, the girls and Melanie's four-year-old brother Marshall find a fenced-off storage yard filled with odds and ends. A bust of Nefertiti here, a statue of Diana there, to them it becomes the perfect setting for their secret world. They transform the space into a make-believe temple, adopt Egyptian names, perform ceremonies, write messages in hieroglyphs, and even build their own altar. Soon, other kids from the neighborhood join in. Elizabeth, a nine-year-old new to the neighborhood girl, Toby, the sixth-grade class clown, and Ken, the class jock. The Egypt game grows into a full-blown society with rituals, rules, and a deep sense of belonging. But their imaginative world develops a darker edge when the children learn that a child murderer, known locally as the Marsh Monster, has been haunting the neighborhood. Their attempts to play Oracle take a spooky turn when they receive an answer from the Oracle locating Marshall's lost-stuffed octopus, security. Suddenly, their secret temple doesn't feel quite so safe. Tension builds as the kids begin to wonder whether their pretend world might be connected to something very real and very dangerous. The mystery comes to a head when Marshall and April return to Egypt in the night to retrieve a book, and April is attacked in the temple yard. In the confusion of the attack, blame appears to fall on the professor. Marshall, who never finks on anyone, finally tells the police that the professor was the one who saved the day, and the red-headed stockboy from the variety store was the culprit. The professor, lonely after the loss of his wife, had been watching over the children in his own weird way. By the end of this story, the children returned to the temple, but the game has changed. What once felt like pure fantasy now carries the weight of real-world danger and understanding. They're still imaginative, still fascinated with Egypt, but they're also a little older and wiser, having learned that even the most magical games exist alongside the complicated realities of the adult world.

SPEAKER_05 7:22

Zilfa Keatley Snyder was born on May 11th, 1927 in Lamore, California to William S. and Dessa Jepson Keately. Her parents worked as a rancher, slash oil driller, and a school teacher, respectively. And the family lived in a country house for Zilfa's early years with plenty of farm animals running around. Snyder described herself as having an extremely active imagination and developed a habit of telling stories. She decided at the age of eight that she was a writer and would, as an adult, live up to that self-declaration in a significant way. Reading was also a major part of Snyder's life. She was quoted as saying, We lived in the country during the Depression and World War II. Due to shortages of such things as gasoline and money, I didn't get around much or do many exciting things. In fact, my world might have been quite narrow and uninteresting if it had not been for two magical ingredients, animals and books. Snyder went on to attend and graduate with a BA from Whittier College, where she met her husband, music student Larry Snyder. They married in 1950 and had three children. Snyder began work as a public elementary school teacher and would teach in multiple places around the United States as she followed her husband while he pursued graduate studies. They eventually settled in Berkeley, California, and Snyder got a job teaching at the University of California. She published her first book, Season of Ponies, in 1964, soon followed by The Velvet Room in 1965, and then Black and Blue Magic in 1966. Snyder published The Egypt Game in 1967, which was a runner-up for the Newberry Medal. Her writing output was prolific, consisting of more than 40 books for children and young adults during her career. She won the Newberry honor three times. Snyder died of a stroke on October 7th, 2014, in San Francisco, California.

SPEAKER_00 9:34

I love that she knew she was a writer at age eight. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 9:37

She just had to wait a little bit to get her life, you know, established.

SPEAKER_00 9:41

She's like, all right, now I'm gonna crank the books out. She's like, oh, the pieces will fall into place, but I'm definitely a writer.

SPEAKER_02 9:48

That she was a teacher, I think, also really comes through in this because, like, as you're reading, like the dialogue, I think, really is true to how kids interact with each other. And I think we talked about this with Judy Bloom, too. Sometimes people have a real ear for how young children talk and act, and she really captures how kids interact with each other. I thought Snyder did a really great job with that too. Like she really gets the kids.

SPEAKER_00 10:18

I feel like even when she added something about like how kids viewed adults. Well, I don't know. I I guess some kids might think that way, but I know that there was like one where it was like Toby remarking on his teacher and how like she's really good at like making them think about something or like get really excited about something. And I was like, oh, that sounds like such an adult way of like trying to worm their way into having a kid think that.

SPEAKER_02 10:45

But but his reason for thinking that was so funny because his motivation was like, I understand this about this adult, and I can see that like if I sidetrack her into a thing that she thinks is exciting us, she won't give us a quiz.

SPEAKER_04 11:00

Yeah. Brilliant. Right. Yeah. So like really, I think we played who.

SPEAKER_02 11:10

But I felt like that was believable from Toby because he is like he's very charismatic. He's the class clown. Like he really understands how to manipulate has such a bad reputation as a word, I feel like. But steer.

SPEAKER_01 11:26

Perfect.

SPEAKER_02 11:26

He understood how to like steer people in directions that were beneficial for everyone, really. He's never mean-spirited, or like even when he's being the oracle, he's doing it from a place of like love and excitement, wanting to extend the magic for everyone that is important to him. He did a lot of work with that.

SPEAKER_04 11:50

Like I was like because I was so sure from the beginning that it had to be like the professor, yeah. Just for it to be like, no, actually, I found these books and was looking through and put the core words. There's a lot of dedication back in '68.

SPEAKER_02 12:05

Like the forgery handwriting. He made it like all shaky so that it would look not his handwriting. Dedication. Yeah, Toby was really he was thinking about the big picture.

SPEAKER_05 12:16

And then he got worried. He's like, oh, that question's too direct. I can't answer where the stuffed octopus is. What am I gonna do?

SPEAKER_00 12:24

Yeah, I actually liked how they made Toby because April and Melanie didn't really like him at first. Eventually, they like added more like depth into him. And obviously, like he was really interested in everything that was going on with it. And so I guess to your point about like finding your people, like he definitely eventually, like, you realize, like, oh, he belonged in this group. Yeah. Um, and Ken was seemed like just along for the ride.

SPEAKER_02 12:50

Toby's his person, right? Like, they are peas in a pod. And he knows this is important to Toby, so he is kind of along for the ride, but then he gets sucked in too, and like, no, the scope of his imagination is never gonna be as big as April's, but he's still finding joy in it and finding value in being with this weird little group of people that have found each other. And I think that's that's the through line for this book. You know, you start with April being kind of untethered, you know, she's plopped down in a place where she doesn't really know anybody, she doesn't really even have a relationship with her grandmother. Her mom just is like, Yeah, here you go. New man, uh, that's more important to me. I can't have this kid along.

SPEAKER_04 13:40

I'm trying to be a star.

SPEAKER_02 13:41

She did a Bella's mom.

SPEAKER_04 13:43

Bella. Where the hell have you been, Lilka? Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_02 13:49

Just kind of dumps her with the closest relative, even though there's not much of a relationship there. But April really quickly connects with Melanie. And so that's that's clearly the main relationship in the book. But we have all of these other little satellite people, and we have the adults in the book who are very important. And so you see connections to the grandmother develop over time with Caroline, um, who she ultimately does end up calling grandma, only after there's a trauma where she finally becomes truly vulnerable, I think. And then you have the other adults that are important too, the professors in there, and we learn more about his story. He's kind of in the background until the very end. The Ross is both of those parents. We learn about them. We have the librarian who is actually pretty important to these kids because she supports, she supports their their endeavors, you know, whatever that looks like. And she doesn't judge it. She's not like, no, you can't have these books, those are for, you know, adults. She's just like, Great, I have kids that are hungry to learn stuff. I am 100% in on I'm gonna set books aside for them. And I think with us being librarians, I was about to say, we've had kids like that at the library where it's just like you find such joy in their enthusiasm and you do start like, oh, I see this. I'm gonna set it aside for Gabriella, I'm gonna set this aside for Timothy. And like that's great, you know. I I think that that's very real too. And so to me, that's sort of the the main thrust of the book is that idea about finding yourself when you find other people who you can be yourself around.

SPEAKER_05 15:38

I don't know what their public library was like. We don't let up details, but they weren't limited to two books. They weren't told, oh, you need a parent's permission. There weren't all sorts of weird arbitrary restrictions placed on like children come into the library by themselves in the 60s, which I'm sure could have been the case or at other times as well.

SPEAKER_00 15:58

Which makes it more frustrating whenever you have something in pop culture that like paints librarians as like always trying to like make every, you know, every patron be quiet or every customer be quiet. Um so I I guess I just like really love when someone paints a librarian as anything other than that. I will say what I really liked about the introduction of April and Melanie's friendship is you really thought April was gonna paint just like this really singular character because the way that she's introduced with her like. Oh my god, yeah, and not done well whatsoever. And she just goes to this like lunch with her personal, yeah. And you know, talking about Hollywood and like, you know, just trying to seem a lot more interesting and like talking about her mom and everything, understanding the knowing looks that she's getting from Melanie um and her mom. But then you get Melanie and they go to her room, and then like Melanie like pulls out, or I don't think she pulls out, I think uh falls out because April grabs the book that she's hiding the room. Yeah, that she hides like these little like paper dolls in. Um, and then she's like, Yeah, I like to like do these little stories, and like, and so you're just like, Oh, like they found each other. You were I was not getting that from Melanie in the beginning, but it was kind of like slowly introduced, and I kind of like how they did that. And I think she did that really well for almost every character. It's kind of like you don't think they would somehow work well together, and then all of a sudden you're like, oh no, they definitely were too much.

SPEAKER_02 17:32

Well, and I think that's very true to life. Like when we meet people, we just have that first impression, the sort of superficial how you size somebody up. But then with time, you get these little breadcrumbs of who they really are, and they let their guard down, and that's when you really, you know, you you make these amazing friendships that are so strong and so true. I I thought that was really great. So I guess just for context, in case anyone is listening who hasn't read the books, she has she's very clear in saying these are not paper dolls. So they are paper people, but she she goes to like great pains to like make them fit the vision she has in her head. So she develops her story and her characters first, and then she goes looking for matches to that. So for like the one guy and the one family, he's supposed to be a detective. Yeah, so she hunts and hunts in like magazines and newspapers until she finds a head.

SPEAKER_00 18:35

I love that. It's like storyboarding detective, yeah. I love how that she's like storyboarding and then like also casting. Like you just like can she could totally fit into like the film industry when she's older.

SPEAKER_02 18:49

Yeah, she has a vision, yeah. But the like April just seamlessly like glides into it because Melanie's, you know what? This weird kid is not gonna judge me about the paper dolls. Like, she looks intrigued, and so she's saying, like, and he's the detective, and this is his wife, and she does this.

SPEAKER_00 19:06

And April's like, Yeah, yeah, like the dead.

SPEAKER_02 19:10

And so it just it turns into this thing that morphs into the two of them creating together. And um, there's that really precious little moment where she says, like, well, the other kids I know they they don't really like imagination games. And April says, Well, I've never thought about it, but I guess the games that I play are imagination games. Like that, that is what I do. And so just that sort of light bulb over the head moment for both of them, I think is really great.

SPEAKER_04 19:39

Well, I liked when um Elizabeth came to town and her April's grandma's like, Yeah, there's a new girl. The grandma's like, Yeah, she's kind of close in age to you all. And April's like, Well, how old is she? And grandma's like, she's nine. And April's like, nine is not close to 11. Which like looking back, it's like, okay, that's ridiculous. But like, back then, you know, I can see the video. I think you're a legend, right?

SPEAKER_02 20:05

You don't want to play with a fourth grader, except at the same time they're playing with a four-year-old.

SPEAKER_04 20:10

Right. But they're like, he can keep a secret. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:13

Apparently, Marshall didn't think on anybody.

SPEAKER_05 20:17

We need to bring back that word. It's so funny.

SPEAKER_02 20:20

For real, Marshall didn't even really think on the guy that killed the kid. Someone had to tell him it was okay to tell. Um, that's also, I think we should talk about that. This is maybe the only book I can think of where the murder of a child is like just glossary. Yeah, it's just a plot element that's kind of looming in the background. And I think that's another reason like this book connected well for me was like the kids are not super, super like wound up about that murder. But they're like more like it's the parents aware of it. And and I think that that to me was very much like in childhood, you would see on the news when your parents were watching, or like if your parents took the paper, you'd see on the front page something. That being in the background that whole time is really interesting because they're not super scared of it. But then when things are a little weird in the game, all of a sudden, you do see that they do kind of have hairs on the back of their necks going up. Someone watching us, like it's the murderer. What you know?

SPEAKER_05 21:28

I didn't include it in the bio, but like I read like interviews where she talked about like if the kid doing like like doing all these imagination things, like she had a bowl where that had like a little orphan annie picture at the bottom, and she would drink her soup really quickly so that she wouldn't drown. She she described all sorts of like just things like that, like like ritualistic. Yeah, like things that make sense when you're a kid with an active imagination that uh she would completely be like, Oh yeah, that makes sense that you would line up your stuffed animals to protect you against the murderer.

SPEAKER_01 21:59

Yeah, you know, she's a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 21:59

Clearly would not work, but when you're a kid, it made you feel better, you know. And And that comes through in so many, like the kids are very ritualistic. Like they create this whole little universe of, you know, their little secret society. They they have their own like code writing and kids.

SPEAKER_04 22:19

The hieroglyphics. Yeah. And like, I don't know if you guys' copy of the book. So I listened to the audiobook, but I also followed along with the ebook. Like they had pictures of like the hieroglyphics. Oh no, I just got the audio books.

SPEAKER_05 22:30

I I read it because I well, I got the audio actually. And then and then um Libby glitched and was like, I can't stream this, so I had to read it in print, which uh I was grumpy about, but then it was fine because then I got to look at the pictures of the hieroglyphics and they were um and they were all in their little Oh my gosh, their names, I love their names and I love the illustrations. I I Nefer Beth. I think so cute. They were like, Yes, they were like, she kind of looks like Nefrazini. They were like, all right, she's in the game. I love how like they were like, oh, we can't play with a nine-year-old. And they were like, oh no, Elizabeth is great. She has to join the game.

unknown 23:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:11

Okay, so did the copy that y'all read have okay, because I was listening to the audiobook of following along, there was one chapter that wasn't in the ebook that was in the audiobook. Oh, really? And it's in the beginning of the book where um Melanie goes to April's house and hides her eyelashes.

SPEAKER_02 23:29

Oh, yeah, because of the starting school, and she's like afraid that the other kids will not understand, but ran her hands over them and then the glue stuck.

SPEAKER_05 23:39

Because she was like, she's like, she's gonna the kids are gonna be merciless. Yeah, she saved her from the eyelashes. Oh weird. That's so weird. They were in the episode. It was in the ebook that I read.

SPEAKER_04 23:50

It wasn't in the ebook that I read. It was so weird. I was like, okay, they just skipped chapter. Like odd. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 23:57

That's that's a really important line. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:00

Well, I think that says so much about Melanie's character, too, is like she really cares for April and she gets it, and she understands that this is April kind of that's her like defense mechanism. But she's like, man, those kids at Wilson, they are not gonna get it. And and they are gonna beat her into submission because she's different. And so she's trying to protect her friend.

SPEAKER_04 24:24

Yeah. I love how she's like, yeah, she takes them off to read.

SPEAKER_01 24:27

Because she can't speak, because she can't drooping.

SPEAKER_05 24:31

Like, yeah, she definitely did not apply them correctly in that case if they are obscuring her vision. She probably needed to cut them. And also, you're not supposed to reuse them multiple times. She did Melanie saved her from an eye infection, almost certainly, as well as like social off-drip.

SPEAKER_02 24:47

Also, she like the first time they meet and she has to take it off to read, she like rips out her real eyelashes.

SPEAKER_05 24:56

Yes, because she probably applied them, like you have to apply them on the lash line. You don't apply them so like you glue them to the lashes.

SPEAKER_02 25:04

Yeah, she like used them like extensions, like glued on, and then just oh yeah, that was painful to read. She's just pulling her eyelashes now. This is a Sesame Street character, I was thinking.

SPEAKER_00 25:14

Yeah, so big snappy eyes.

SPEAKER_05 25:18

Did you remember the part where like Marshall took one of the eyelashes and applied them to security on one of his button eyes? I was so sad they didn't have an illustration of that because that would have been adorable.

SPEAKER_02 25:29

I really love Marshall. Like, I that's another one where like she just captured an old soul child so well.

SPEAKER_05 25:37

Yeah, he was very well written as a character.

SPEAKER_00 25:40

Yeah, I felt like all of the characters are so easy to picture in my head. Like, I think sometimes when I go back and read children's books, sometimes like my imagination's not there enough to like really picture them um as care. But I feel like they were very clear in my head for this book.

SPEAKER_02 25:55

Yeah. Speaking of the characters, what do we think about the adults in the book? Like there's a pretty huge spectrum from with Dorothy to really great adults.

SPEAKER_00 26:08

Like, did I love the interactions with the kids and or mostly how the kids think of them. So there's April, and is it with the professor at the beginning where she's like at first, like he was just very curt, and so at first, like it was just to try to get him to talk more, but then I just started to like over talk. So I really liked that interaction. And then um when Toby's like talking about his dad being upset about his costume being ruined, and he's like, So how many people got injured? And then he's like, What are you talking about? He's like, Well, clearly you were hit by a truck, like um, and he like was explaining, like, yeah, I don't know, my dad didn't seem to care about my costume at first, but then all of a sudden he like had some bright idea and spent like a whole day. He was an artist. Yeah, so he was an artist, and so he then he like took a while to like actually create the costume, so then he felt a certain type of way that it came back ruined. So he was like grounded essentially for like three days, and it was ruined when he like when they tried to cram him through the like fence.

SPEAKER_04 27:13

I liked um what was it? It was uh Melanie's dad whenever April comes by. What is he saying? The cruelest mind.

SPEAKER_05 27:22

Mr. Ross was great. He reminded me of a slightly less sarcastic version of you know Calvin's dad from the Calvin and Hobbs. Like a kinder version of, you know, like a slightly more academic, kinder version of Calvin's dad from Calvin and Hobbs.

SPEAKER_02 27:37

Well, I like that he just never explained it to April. And she's not particularly bothered by it.

SPEAKER_01 27:45

She just is like, that's weird.

SPEAKER_04 27:47

She's like, oh, okay, I understand now, but it's still not funny to me.

SPEAKER_00 27:52

Very good joke, but I guess if you're an adult, or even when the kids, well, this is about the kids, but when they call her February. Yeah. I was like, I didn't think the name April was that big a deal. No, me neither. I'm like, I'm not imaginative enough, I guess. Melody's like, oh thank god, she got a nickname. They've accepted her.

SPEAKER_05 28:11

Oh, that's cute. I'm so glad I got rid of the eyelashes. The Rosses were really kind. Oh, April. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:21

I love how they're like, yeah, we're gonna go to a concert and leave April. Leave April in charge. I was like, who is April babysitting? Because I didn't realize at first that Melanie was also going to the concert. And I'm like, oh, it's just the two of them. Okay, that kind of makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 28:35

Well, and then that went as poorly as it could have because she almost got murdered.

SPEAKER_02 28:41

Yeah, I imagine the parents are like, what happened? Yeah, tell me one more time what you did with my four-year-old.

SPEAKER_00 28:49

Oh no.

SPEAKER_02 28:50

Yeah. I mean, I did babysit when I was in sixth grade. So, like, I get that. It was a different time.

SPEAKER_04 28:57

But also, there's a murder on the loose.

SPEAKER_02 28:59

But it's also April. Like, I can see having Melanie babysit. Yeah. April is so she's kind of that was a child. She yeah, she just is very not the kid that you would think is like responsible enough to be in charge of your four-year-old. Insubordinate and churlish. So it was kind of like, guys, that predictably went poorly. Maybe you should have asked if they could like Marshall could go to Caroline's and just hang out with April there and more like a mother's helper rather than like a true you're in charge.

SPEAKER_01 29:32

Maybe they figured He had great faith in her.

SPEAKER_04 29:34

But he said, remember, she they told him that he was having somebody to come visit because he didn't like being babysat.

SPEAKER_05 29:40

Because he's a very mature old soul four-year-old. And they probably like, oh, he likes April. Like maybe they can have a chill evening at home too.

SPEAKER_02 29:49

Yeah, that sounds fancy. I'm going to visit. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 29:53

Um, I didn't like speaking of adults, I didn't like the the store owner guy only because when they said that even if the uh uh the kids were there first, he would see all the grown-ups before the variety shop guy, yeah. Um because when they went to go buy the pens, they were dedicated to this hieroglyphics and color thing. Like they had to wait so long. Like it took a whole other extra day.

SPEAKER_02 30:16

And I'm like, Yeah, that's not kids, they were there first. And they had money. They had like shut up and take my money. Their money made money for it. Their money wasn't as good as the grown-ups, yeah. Well, and that guy was a problem, anyways. Like, I get he was trying to do the right thing by his nephew or cousin or whoever it was, but like, don't make up alibis for the murderer guy. Yeah, like that's not great.

SPEAKER_04 30:40

But like, do you think did he know? I don't think he knew.

SPEAKER_02 30:43

He must have suspected though, because why did he make up an alibi for him?

SPEAKER_04 30:48

That's true.

SPEAKER_02 30:49

So maybe he was kind of in denial and he was trying to like, well, sure, he must have been here. He definitely wouldn't murder anybody.

SPEAKER_04 30:58

But it's like if you knew you didn't see him, then you know he probably wasn't there because it's not like he's gonna be in the store if you're not in the store. Right. Because you only have him.

SPEAKER_02 31:07

Yeah. I didn't know. Because it's so unrelated. I did like how Marshall like described him as not black, not white, but was like spy. I was like, he got a bit of Lego.

SPEAKER_05 31:19

I mean to do it properly that men. That's what I said. It was freckles. Well, what he said, because he said he had orange hair. Or an rare A. So this is uh a freckled, red-headed.

SPEAKER_04 31:30

You know what? Yeah, yeah, orange hair. Okay. And then I was like, okay, it sounds like he's describing uh not a person at first, because like a Dr.

SPEAKER_05 31:40

Seuss character.

SPEAKER_02 31:41

Right. Well, and I think that is one of those things where like adults would totally write that off as like nonsensical, but he was accurate. Like that's actually a good description if you don't have the like vocabulary to Marshall's a very like accurate literal four-year-old. And he's very observant. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:59

Something else that I liked in the books, in the book, so like obviously like Melanie and Marsha are like black, but you can tell how their parents like do like black power demonstration type stuff with them. And I like that. Like how they kind of just like slid that in there every so often. When Marshall was like, I need a sign. I need a sign. He's like, Oh, he's never been trick-or-treating before.

SPEAKER_02 32:22

We do demonstrations at the college. Well, let's talk about race in the book, too. So this is definitely, I think, for the time, so this was written in the 60s, a really diverse cast of characters, but it's it doesn't really hammer you over the head with that. Like it's just it's just part of who each kid is.

SPEAKER_05 32:42

It felt like she was trying to just paint the picture of a neighborhood where there's lots of different types of people and kids living in there. Like she kind of I think there was a sentence at the or two at the beginning of the book where she talks about like kids who might speak different languages if they chose to.

SPEAKER_04 32:56

And then she kind of just moved on and introduces There was part in the beginning where the grandma's like, yeah, they're blacks. And I was just like, okay, this was written in the 60s. So I was just like, okay. But I was just like blacks. But you know, I was like, okay, it's written in the 60s. I was like, if it was written now, I'd be like, okay, yeah. So clearly they're trying to not cool. I'm like, clearly they're trying to paint the grandma's racist. But that's not the case in this book. So and also it was interesting reading, listening, and following along with the ebook because the audiobook said black, whereas like the ebook said African American.

SPEAKER_03 33:27

So it kind of makes me wonder like, I feel like the the the ebook was probably the original where it said African American, and then maybe they changed it to black.

SPEAKER_02 33:35

Oh, they changed the terminology. Because I don't think I don't think African American is terminology was in vogue in the 60s.

SPEAKER_04 33:43

In the 60s, okay. And then there was also like other phrases that were said in the ebook that were switched in like the audiobook. I think instead of saying n kook kooks! Such a silly word. They said nut, and then in one of them, something else they said, like, you dig this or something like that. Like, just to kind of make it seem, I guess, like more like because I think the audiobook is from like the 90s. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 34:07

So I think I must have read the original text because like I I remember that scene in the beginning, because like I I know because it felt like when the grandmother was when she said, you know that they're black, or the way she said it, like it felt very like like you wouldn't say it that way now. Yeah. I think so. I think that and then I mine did say kook because I remember no it felt like it felt like outdated slang. Yeah. I guess that must have been the original text, and then you said your audiobook was like copyrighted in the 90s. In the 90s. So maybe they tried to update the so it wouldn't sound so kind of jarring.

SPEAKER_02 34:37

Yeah. Yeah. You get that scene where she's like, oh, there's you know, a little girl about your age that's in the Casa Rosada, which is their apartment complex, and you go visit them, they're black. Yeah. I was like, uh-oh. But there's never any other reference to that. And I think for the time in the 60s, like we're all recoiling as like, oh god, that sounds really racist. But I think at the time that was probably pretty progressive. Like she's just letting the kid know, like, don't be weird about this.

SPEAKER_04 35:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:15

She's a cool kid. Go play. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 35:17

And with um, when they talked about Elizabeth in the ebook, which was older, they they just said an Asian girl answered the door error or something like that. And then I think in the audiobook, they specify it was a Chinese. Which makes sense because they gave her a Chinese last name.

SPEAKER_04 35:32

So like you don't have to just say she's Asian, like you can say that she's Chinese. Was um one of the boys, was he also supposed to be not white?

SPEAKER_05 35:41

I think they said that I kind of forgot. Like, I feel like they said that at one point in the book. I I think they mentioned his last name at one point, and I was like, oh, is he the character that they like introduced? I don't know. Yeah, and then they meant to go back and clarify that.

SPEAKER_02 35:55

Okay, hold on, can Kamada, you're right. Sorry. So I think he's meant to be He was one of the chaperones, he had a real Oh, and then he had a clean-cut all American Asian look about it. Okay, it was that walk with a high school swagger.

SPEAKER_04 36:10

Also, Toby, his last name is Aviar.

SPEAKER_02 36:14

Is that what I'm saying? So Toby's interesting because Hannah and I were talking about this before you guys got here. At the end of my book, there's a preview of the next book, the sequel to this book, which my understanding is it just picks up like directly after this ends.

SPEAKER_05 36:33

Although it was written 30 years later.

SPEAKER_02 36:35

And they are still playing Egypt game. But I think it centers more on Toby, and it's called The Gypsy Game, which I was like, uh-oh. Right.

SPEAKER_04 36:45

When that book, when they were like, what do you know about?

SPEAKER_02 36:47

I was like, oh but then I looked it up and it it seems like it's actually a really great book about like educating people on Romani culture and stuff. And apparently Toby is to some degree Romani. Oh, okay. And that so we learned that about him. So I yeah, I had initially thought, oh, he's meant to be Latino, maybe. Maybe.

SPEAKER_00 37:08

In the week, there's like a wiki for um there's a weekler for everything. I know. Wow, and they have his race listed as African slash black.

SPEAKER_02 37:18

For Toby? Okay, I think that's just wrong because it does I I saw multiple things saying that he is of Romani. The the TV tropes page said that too.

SPEAKER_05 37:29

Uh in the gypsum. Of course, the most authoritative source ever.

SPEAKER_02 37:33

But yeah, I definitely I I want to read the next one now. I'm very attached to these little characters and I want to see how she handles that because it was written in the 90s. 97. So she picked up again much later, which you know, maybe she felt like, hey, this is something I need to educate people on for whatever reason.

SPEAKER_04 37:53

Um at first I was like, okay, the Egypt game, where is this going? But I feel like it was actually kind of cool to see like the little tidbits that they like dropped in there. The kids are clearly like, they're clearly making like informed decisions on like how they're going about trying to play pretend in Egypt. And they consider themselves Egyptians, like they're they're using things that they learned in school. Like when they learned about the oracles, they kind of like incorporated that when they asked the oracle questions. I thought that was really cool. Or like them going to the library and grabbing books. So it's not like they're just watching TV and seeing how Hollywood portrays Egyptians and deciding to take that on, like they're like actually like doing their version of research. So I thought that was interesting.

SPEAKER_02 38:33

Well, so let's talk about that more because I think this idea of cultural appropriation versus appreciation is something that we talk about a lot now. This is antiquity, right? It's not there's no modern people right now that are practicing faith in this way, to my knowledge. So I don't know if distance makes it a little bit more okay. Because, you know, certainly we say now like somebody's culture is not a costume, right, right? And they clearly dress up as Egyptian, right? But it's antiquity, it's not modern Egypt. Like you're saying, they really do seem to try to educate themselves. I mean, sometimes they miss, like when they have the funeral rites for the parakeet. Yeah. When they they mummify Photap, they've really taken pains to like get the stuff. They're like what kind of oil do we need to have? They miss because they use bicycle oil, which I'm sure was not what was used in that time. But you know, they actually brine the body, they they don't remove the organs because Elizabeth Neferbeth is too traumatized by that to like allow it. But yeah, they they wrap in oiled cloth and everything. So, like, they've done a lot of research for the age they are to try to get it right. Like they're taking it very seriously. So I want to see what do you guys think about where does any of this fall on appropriation versus appreciation? Was it okay that they dressed up as Egyptians for Halloween? Which I don't know. What are we supposed to think about this now?

SPEAKER_04 40:14

It's interesting. I think I think because they're like kids, it it kind of is I think it's okay because they're kids and they're just like exploring and trying to figure out and you know, they're they're doing what they feel like is, you know, they're following from what they found in like research, and there really is like no adult involvement in this, where I think I think a lot of cultural appropriation um comes from like also like adult biases that they they have, which I don't think that's the case with these kids. But I don't know, I don't I feel like I'm not greatly articulating what I'm trying to say, but I think that just from how they portrayed, I mean, obviously, like nobody would dress their kids up now as like Egyptians, but also like the parents didn't dress them up, like they dressed themselves up this way and just kind of vibe with it, you know. So yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_06 41:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:02

I mean, I I think the same as Hamma that I I think that them being kids kind of makes it a little like easier to digest while you're reading it. And then also what Heather was saying, that like because it was like the antiquity of it was also like played a role because even when they even before they start the game, I think they say like April's really interested in lots of different ancient cultures. So she mentions like Greece, yeah, because Mesopotamia, right? She mentions like several different things.

SPEAKER_02 41:44

There's a mention of like, well, that wasn't authentic, anyways, because the oracles were Greek.

SPEAKER_05 41:49

Like they definitely described the the Oracle of Adel of Delphi, I think. Umless because that's what they're bankrupting about underneath. Like unless there was a another oracle that did something that sounded like descriptions of how the oracle was supposed to function. So then it just remember correctly.

SPEAKER_00 42:09

Yeah, so then it just felt like just kids being really appreciative or like really interested in history, and then that made it just like easier to really like get into it and not feel like too weird about some of the things that they do, like dressing up like Egyptians.

SPEAKER_02 42:26

Love that in Egypt. Yeah, because they are it's not just Halloween, like they are dressing up for the little rituals and rites that they're doing in the world.

SPEAKER_04 42:37

Yeah, the six Egyptians.

SPEAKER_02 42:39

Yeah. Well, and they also like their temple is also, I mean, they do have the like, I think it's like a cheap plaster bust of Nefertiti that was junk from the A to Z shop, but they also have like a statue of Diana. And then they and it's like, no, that fits. Like these are old things in our old temple. And yeah. Let's see. Were there other things that we wanted to talk about? There's I feel like there's a lot in this book that we can discuss. There's the amount of bacteria on April's eyelashes.

SPEAKER_04 43:11

Did you write that hand out?

SPEAKER_02 43:13

I I might have. I mean, that's it's nasty. She's using the same pair of eyelashes for months.

SPEAKER_04 43:19

Remind you, uh, Melanie takes them back to her house and hides them underneath the the dresser drawer or whatever, and like she's still and they've been on the stuffed animal.

SPEAKER_02 43:29

They've been yeah, they've been all over the place. She takes them off and puts them on tables and stuff because she needs to read.

SPEAKER_05 43:37

So um the This is like 10. There's a there's a uh there's a the place that I take ballet at puts on yearly shows, and there is a lucky pair of false eyelashes. Um a shared one? We don't we don't wear them anymore. They're in a little plastic box, and we put them in the dressing room at each performance, and they are coated. They they have they have been around for like 10 years, and nobody touches them to their eye. They are just a they are just a mask. Scott that goes in the dressing room now. Um, and if anybody were to put them on their eye at this point, God knows what infections they would get. They're just that we have it labeled with the eyelashes. Um they're just a ceremonial good luck charm now because you don't want to reuse what was the start? Like why the eyelashes? Yeah. Um you would have to ask my friend Sarah, who um kept them, and then when she moved um to another town, passed them on to me, and I'm now the keeper of the eyelashes. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 44:44

I guess we haven't talked a lot about April's relationship with her family, which I do think is an interesting bit of dysfunction that is in the book. We've certainly had other books we've read with dysfunctional families, but this one is like from a distance, which is interesting. Like the only real communications we see between April and her mom are through these infrequent postcards and letters that she gets.

SPEAKER_04 45:13

So what did y'all feel? Are phones not a thing?

SPEAKER_02 45:18

They were, but it would have been long distance back then, so it probably would have been expensive. And her mom is not an established actress. Like she says, like, well, she's mostly a vocalist, and she's been in an as an extra in some things. So it would have been I don't think there's a lot of money there.

SPEAKER_04 45:36

Okay. It's so funny because she was like, You should you don't know who my mom is? Just like girl.

SPEAKER_02 45:41

Nobody knows who your mom is. But like Melanie like clocks that immediately to look a certain way, and she's putting on airs and and trying to seem impressive because she's not feeling confident, you know, which is a good one.

SPEAKER_00 45:55

Which is very mature. Yeah, I was gonna say, I was like, that was really mature of Melanie to like recognize that at what 11.

SPEAKER_02 46:02

So I totally bought that. Like you knew, like, yeah, oh, there goes that kid, he's making a ruckus again because his family's weird, he doesn't get enough attention at home.

SPEAKER_00 46:13

Like, you know those things like in your head sometimes, and but we're seeing it more because we are but also you pick up on stuff like that because I I think um what I got from it too was that April could understand could like could see that the mom and Melanie were both picking up on something. And so the mom is probably like that too, and maybe like would have conversations and like would pick up on stuff like that. And I think that Melanie just kind of I I just felt like it was just like a natural, like you understood where it was coming from.

SPEAKER_02 46:45

And Melanie's mom is also a school teacher, so like I think she also probably is pretty insightful about kids, yeah. But like April, I think also gets that they're not judging her for it, like that they're understanding her, not judging her. And I think that's cool.

SPEAKER_04 47:03

I think it's interesting that, like, so like is Caroline trying with April, or is she just kind of like I think she is.

SPEAKER_02 47:12

I think she's just realizing that the more she tries to like push pull her in. Let's pull her in, the more she's gonna fight to get out. Okay, and then it has to be on her own time in her own terms.

SPEAKER_04 47:25

And I guess that is ended ended up being what happened.

SPEAKER_02 47:27

Yeah, it worked. Like she ends up being the soft place to land when when April is almost murdered.

SPEAKER_04 47:35

Yes, and even before that, I think there was an instance where I think she receives a letter from her mom or something, and she's kind of like just crying and like just kind of like there. And I felt like that was kind of like the little turning the beginning of the turning point of their relationship, which made me happy for um April because it seems like she's gonna be where she's at for a while. And so I think that, you know. Not not only she found her people and her friends, but I think it's also good that, you know, she can feel like her grandmother in her home is a safe space for her.

SPEAKER_02 48:03

Yeah, she she has found family and she has blood family now that she has more depth of connection to than, you know, her mom, whose affection I think she was constantly chasing after, but it never her mom's so self-centered, it's just not gonna be there.

SPEAKER_04 48:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:21

Yeah, the the end where she does break down with the I thought it was great, the thing at Christmas where her mom sends a thing finally saying, like, yeah, I mean, it's been months now, like six months. Her mom finally sends something saying, like, yeah, Nick and I are gonna be in Palm Springs for a few days. Maybe you can come for like a day for Christmas. And April's like, you know what? No. And she writes back and says, basically, no, I have plans with my friends and with my grandma. You know, we just did the tree. I love that. Yeah, I did too.

SPEAKER_04 49:01

Yeah, because girl, what? Also, like, I'm a kid. You're gonna be like, yeah, just meet me here, like, just let me know.

SPEAKER_02 49:07

Like now, Dorothy is definitely up there for me in the like pantheon of bad parents that we've had in books that we've read.

SPEAKER_04 49:15

The wesh. I love that we get a range.

SPEAKER_02 49:20

We get like the really great Rosses who are super supportive. And then I'm Mrs. Chung really great. Working in the sport, she's working at the A to Z. She's gonna get things into like tip-top shape there because it's like gross and dusty and neglected. And yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:37

Because everyone loves the professor now, even and everybody's coming to shop in the store, especially all the people who signed the petition to say that he was a murder murderer. Like, yeah, because they're guilt.

SPEAKER_02 49:47

Everybody comes and buys something junky because they feel so bad that that they were mean to him.

SPEAKER_04 49:53

Nobody's going to Mr. Schmidt's store anymore.

SPEAKER_02 49:55

And and now the professor kind of has like a little found family too, because he was grieving his wife for so long. We talked a little bit about the writing, and it really sparkles in here at times. There were some quotes in here that I pulled where I was just like, that's really well done. The one time she says, a life unknown to grownups and lived by kids alone. And I thought that that was such a like concise and perfect way to like express the magical places that we have as children that's away from the adults and it's not understandable to adults. But then later, towards the end of the book, she says, it's just awful when you go back to something that was so great the way you remembered it, and it's no good anymore. It even ruins remembering. And I think that that is the transition from childhood to adulthood. Yeah. Your world becomes small and the magic goes away, and you become just enmeshed in the real world around you and the details of your day-to-day, and you lose that sparkle and that magic of what was basically like an alley lot, like a junkyard, essentially, which you know, to an adult would be like nothing. I mean, to the professor, it was where he stashed junk that he didn't want in the shop. It was a nothing space, and to them, it was another world.

SPEAKER_04 51:29

Like and that is, and like with them being 11, that is kind of that age where they're at, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:35

It kind of vaguely reminds me of the Chronicles of Narnia, because isn't there like I think the older sister character, like at some point doesn't come back and they say it's because she stopped believing or something. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:48

But I, you know, I think for me, it's she in two sentences that are chapters apart to me manages to capture that arc so perfectly that it takes a lot of authors whole books and multiple books to even try to flesh out. She's really sharp with her writing sometimes. Uh, another thing that I I thought was really great was when the professor was talking about Anne, his wife who died. He was an anthropologist and um, you know, she was artsy. And he says that she had said that anthropologists only like people in general, and she liked people in particular. That was a nice phrase. Nailed it. Um, and then he said, after a while, the store and I became dusty junkyards, and I didn't care. And I thought that was a really beautiful description of what depression can look like for people. You're just kind of alone with your memories and they start to get hazy and dusty, and they're less, you know, less beautiful than they were because everything's getting kind of dulled down sometimes when you're grieving. And yeah, I just I thought she did just a tremendous job at points where it was like I would read a sentence and it would kind of take my breath away and I'd have to read it a few more times.

SPEAKER_04 53:09

I can honestly say, like, I know a lot of times like a lot of middle grade or kids' books can be kind of like predictable for people reading it as like adults, but like that didn't necessarily feel like the case with me. I also didn't read the synopsis before going in. I just kind of started the book. Like I definitely thought the professor was gonna be some kind of shifty, shady person. So, like for him to not only have been like the person that was kind of like behind the oracles, it ends up being like, you know, between him and Marshall, because they of course all the newspapers are like Marshall's a hero, but like which I thought was super cute. Um so you know, between that and him becoming a hero and being more integrated back into the community and like found family with these these kids, I thought it was really cool. Because at first when they were like, Yeah, he just wiped through his window and is peeping through the hole. I'm like, that's kind of weird, ain't it?

SPEAKER_02 53:54

It it was, but then I felt like it was such a true way of like somebody just very slowly coming back into society. And society like he had that little bit, that little glimpse, and then he started to be drawn to it and interact more. And then that he did, you know, he did do the oracle for the security being missing after he had put security to shelter security when Marshall left it behind and it rained, you know, that that little olive branch to the world, you know, like that little gesture where he actually tried to interact when he really couldn't do that within the confines of his store at that moment.

SPEAKER_04 54:40

It's like the joy you get of people watching, and that's kind of like you know, it's hard sometimes, like when it comes to like adults and kids, and it's just like you're automatically your mind wants to think, okay, this this this could go bad, but like it was the exact opposite. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:54

No, I loved it. I love this little book. Yeah, it was fun. Um, so I guess we have our two big questions as to whether the book holds up and whether we would recommend this book now.

SPEAKER_00 55:11

Yes, yes, and yes.

SPEAKER_04 55:14

Yeah, and yeah. Same.

SPEAKER_02 55:16

Yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_04 55:18

I'm curious about the sequel now.

SPEAKER_02 55:19

I know, I'm gonna get it and just keep going. Because I don't want to say one of these characters. What is the name of it? The gypsy game. Oh, okay. So and it does pick up like immediately, I think. Okay. Like literally, I think the next day. Oh, really? Yeah. I did think so. Christmas is when this ends. And I did think it was kind of weird that the professor just thought like everyone would be cool bringing their kids to come do this on Christmas Eve. That seems odd to me. Like people have plans for Christmas book, but you know, it worked out.

SPEAKER_00 56:03

And you said that the next book focuses on Toby.

SPEAKER_02 56:06

I think Toby is more centered instead of April and Melanie.

SPEAKER_04 56:11

We should take a trip to Egypt, aka Aronda Mills. I saw on TikTok and it's just like, oh, when she said she wanted to take a trip to Egypt, it's like taking the next best thing. Five people said that to me. Really? Because I used to work there. Oh, really?

SPEAKER_00 56:31

Yeah. They're about to do another mummy. We could go see that and do a picture. Each episode, we ask whether our book passes the Beckdel test. The Beckdell test asks whether a work features two female characters who talk to each other about something that doesn't involve men or boys. So does it pass?

SPEAKER_04 56:58

Yeah, I feel like in the beginning, yeah, April and um Melanie before like everybody else is kind of like involved in the mix. They do kind of have they talk about the Egypt game, they talk about Egypt, they talk about paper dolls.

SPEAKER_05 57:12

But the when the paper dolls is a man.

unknown 57:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:15

Well, I guess that's but I think that's just their imagination overall. Yeah, does that really count? Because like, and and obviously, like they talk about like different male god figures as well, but like I don't know that they're really talking about men or boys, they're talking about like a shared interest in history or a shared interest in imagining for the paper doll families. Yeah. So I feel like it does pass.

SPEAKER_04 57:43

It does, you know, and it wasn't one of those books where it turned into like, oh, the boys joined the group, and they have a crush on the boys. Like, I thought it was gonna try to like lean into that person.

SPEAKER_05 57:51

There was a refreshing lack of romance in this place.

SPEAKER_02 57:55

It's just the friendships and the connecting with each other over the the the games they're playing. And I guess too, she does she didn't really talk so much with her mom or with her grandmother about her mom. But there's certainly those moments where they're together with the the letters that you know hurt her feelings and disappoint her again in her mom. So I think it passes. I think so too. I I think this is a I I wouldn't say it's like an explicitly feminist work, but I also don't think that there's a whole lot of misogyny in here either.

SPEAKER_00 58:35

Yeah. And I'm curious what she does in the second one, because I think by the time you reach age 12 in a lot of young adult novels, like that's when it's they'll start to introduce the like romance in it. And I wonder if she like fell into that or was like now hold off, because that's not the point of this book, you know.

SPEAKER_02 58:52

I'm curious to read her books that are meant for older grades too, because I'd be interested.

SPEAKER_00 59:00

I mean, she's so incisive about yeah, like if she falls into the Judy Bloom travel. Right. Like, does that go away as the characters get older?

SPEAKER_02 59:09

I would be interested to see. Um, I did have a little note in here. Um, I think this book has some really fabulous vocabulary in it. Like, I, you know, you've got words like prostrate, and like I think there's a lot of like good like SAT vocabulary in a book that's really designed for younger kids. I mean, this feels pretty squarely like middle grades to me, um, not YA. So yeah, I was impressed with just the I feel like it would be very educational for a lot of kids. Like they'd either pick up words they didn't know or they'd pick up some information that they didn't know. Cause like some of the stuff about Egypt, I think, is like the mummification stuff is really if you didn't know about that already, you'd be like, whoa, that's really weird. And you might like look into it more. How does that work?

SPEAKER_05 1:00:01

And is that still a thing where kids go through phases where they're like obsessed with Greek mythology or obsessed with like age?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:08

I think there's still I see a lot of kids at the desk looking for or parents looking for the kids because my kids are really into myths and my kids really into this. Yeah, I still push the Delayers. Those are still very funny. They're so great.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:22

I think they still hold up really well because yeah, they're they're beautiful and they're well done. And I think that the books that we do have on those topics still go out really well.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:35

I mean, I definitely get asked by kids about those topics. I just sometimes you don't know if it's for a project or not. Sometimes they're open about it, and sometimes you don't know if it's like a this is what I want to learn everything about this week.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:48

There's a lot of people, kids that are like into the I Survived books, which I think kind of like falls into that same realm of hazardous tales books.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:58

I think those are also like they're you know historically accurate.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:03

Well, my line sister, her son's like seven, and he loves those I survived books. He'll come up and tell you, did you know about the book? And I'm like, yes, tell me more.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:14

Let me tell you all the gory details. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:20

Well, that's it for this episode of These Books Made Me. Join us next time when we'll discuss a book in which there is a cult led by a man named Father Peace. If you think you know which book we're tackling next, follow us on Instagram or at TheseBooks Made Me and drop a comment on our guests, our next read post.