These Books Made Me
These Books Made Me
The Hate U Give
We love a little 90s nostalgia and The Hate U Give delivers on that front. It also delivers on the well drawn characters and hard hitting plot elements front. Angie Thomas took us on an emotional roller coaster with Starr in this book and we laughed, cried, and loved right along with her. We loved the Tupac references and Maverick's take on Harry Potter and cheered for Starr when she grabbed that megaphone. We are discussing all sorts of big issues in this book from microaggressions, code switching, police brutality, and interracial relationships. As always we learned something about ourselves and each other along the way. We narrowly avoid a tragic Vanilla Ice moment and debate whether being known as the Fresh Princess is cute or cringe.
These Books Made Me is a podcast about the literary heroines who shaped us and is a product of the Prince George's County Memorial Library System podcast network. Stay in touch with us via Twitter @PGCMLS with #TheseBooksMadeMe or by email at TheseBooksMadeMe@pgcmls.info. For recommended readalikes and deep dives into topics related to each episode, visit our blog at https://pgcmls.medium.com/.
Hi, I am Hawa.
Maria:I'm Maria.
Hannah:I'm Hannah.
Heather:I'm Heather.
Hawa:And this is our podcast. These Books Made Me. Today we're going to be talking about The Hate U Give by Angie Thomas. Friendly warning as always, this podcast contains spoilers. If you don't yet know who avoids wearing an apron or working at the corner store, proceed with caution.
Hannah:Was this everyone's first time reading? If not, how did this reread compare to your memories of reading it when you were younger?
Hawa:So this was not my first time reading it, and I'm excited because usually it's always my first time reading the book. But I'm not gonna lie, I actually didn't, wasn't sure if I wanted to revisit this book because I wasn't sure how I would feel about it. I was worried that I would look back and feel like it was cringe. Something I had to recently remind myself when reading YA is like reminding myself that like, this is for a young, younger audience. And honestly, I think I enjoyed this book more this time than I did. The first time I think was really well done. And this was actually one of the first few books I remember reading when I got back into reading as an adult. Even though there are some things that maybe dated a little bit, it's very still relevant, like the idea of police brutality and, you know, Black Lives Matter and all that. So yeah,
Maria:This was my first time reading it. I remember when it came out, but I think I was also in undergrad and I was not reading for pleasure at the time because I was an English major. It, it was pretty heavy to read , um, because it's still so relevant right now. But I did really enjoy the book as well.
Heather:Also, it was not my first time reading it. I read it when it came out. I thought it was an important book for the kids we were working with here at the library. So I wanted to make sure I read it so I could recommend it wholeheartedly or not. But I liked it a lot when I read it. Then I thought it was important, you know, All American Boys was the other one at that time where I felt like it did, it did a really good job of kind of having a finger on the pulse of how things were going in the country and made some of the turmoil that was happening, like personal and accessible in a way that I thought maybe helped people empathize with it, even if it wasn't their lived experience. So I recommended this book a lot when it first came out, but I hadn't touched it again since that first read. So it was interesting to revisit it. And I had sort of the same trepidation that you did, Hawa.
Hawa:mm - hmm .
Heather:About where it's like, oh, I don't know if this one's gonna hold up, even though it's fairly recent for us compared to some of the other books that we've covered. But that made it more like, oh, if it doesn't hold up, we're gonna have to be like more critical of it because it's not that old. Yeah. Um, but really I thought it did pretty well. I mean, there's a couple of things that date it, but not, not substance, you know, the substance of the book is still really strong. I think the emotions in the book and the characters are strong. I think I liked it better this time reading it <laugh> than I did the first time as well.
Hawa:< laugh > , I wasn't expecting that For myself or for, yeah.
Heather:So, yeah, I was also surprised by that. But yeah, I liked it a lot on this read and I, I got through it really, really fast. I did it cover to cover with no break.
Hawa:Wow
Heather:Um , I really, yeah, I really was in it when I was in it, so I enjoyed it a lot.
Hannah:Like Maria, this was my first time reading. I remember when it came out and all the buzz around it because of how topical it was and still is, but it wasn't one that I managed to successfully get onto my to read and then read pile the time. But I was glad for the chance to get to read it now. And I think it, I mean, I didn't read at the time, but I think it holds up and you know, there's a few things that slightly date it looks like social media references, but you know, those are not the substance of the, the book.
Heather:All right. We'll dive into a plot summary here. This is kind of a long one. A lot happens in this book. Starr Carter is a 16-year-old girl living in two worlds: the posh suburban world of her pricey private school, Williamson Prep and the tightknit, but sometimes violent world of her own neighborhood Garden Heights. Starr lives with her two brothers, her mother Lisa, nurse manager at the local clinic, and her father Maverick, a former gang member who owns the neighborhood store. The neighborhood is frequently disrupted by violence related to beef between and within the two major gangs, the King Lords and the Garden Disciples. At school Starr code switches and doesn't really talk about her neighborhood anymore and an effort to fit in. And this version of Starr does fit in pretty well at school. She has a couple of long - term best friends, Hailey and Maya, her boyfriend of a year, Chris, she plays on the basketball team and is well regarded by her teachers. But all this masking at school has made her self-conscious in her own neighborhood, losing touch with old friends and not really part of the social scene. One night Starr's older brother Seven's, half-sister Kenya convinces Starr to come to a party with her Starr is awkward at the party and regrets coming until she runs into her best friend from early childhood Khalil. As she and Khalil reminisce and catch-up, Starr worries that Khalil is dealing drugs and has possibly joined the King Lords things take a violent turn at the party and shots are fired. Khalil and Starr run. As they are talking and driving police pull them over. Khalil is annoyed but compliant. But the police officer 115, his badge number shoots Khalil when he leans in the window to check on Starr. Khalil dies in the street as Starr watches helplessly. When people learn that Khalil was unarmed, there is pushback against the media and police narrative that Khalil was a gangbanger and that the officer feared for his life. Starr is too scared to speak out and is spiraling due to the trauma of now. Having witnessed the shooting deaths of Khalil and her best friend, Natasha at age 10 Starr and her family try to hide that Starr was a witness to the shooting, and Starr tries to keep her secret at school and in the neighborhood, but it weighs on her. At the request of Uncle Carlos who raised her when her father was in prison, Starr agrees to be interviewed by detectives and eventually the DA about the shooting star feels like her whole world is crumbling in her Williamson world. Her trauma is putting distance between her and Chris, who she refuses to tell about witnessing the shooting. Classmates protests the shooting by walking out of class, but it's clear to Starr that they're using Khalil's death to cut class rather than caring about what happened to him. Hailey makes a joke that feels racist to Starr, and when confronted about it, Hailey doubles down on it. And Starr is reminded of a series of casually racist interactions with Hailey over the years a.nd their friendship falls apart. At home her father is trying to help Devonte leave the King Lords like he did. But this sparks simmering tension with King, the leader of the King Lords. Kenya thinks Star is a coward for not speaking out about being the witness and allowing the media narrative to portray Khalil as a thug. Starr is connected to an attorney activist at Khalil's funeral who agrees to represent her, but she's still terrified of being involved as the witness. She manages to testify in front of the grand jury. King begins to put pressure on Maverick, who he believes is hiding Devonte during the protest. Starr witnesses police cuffing and harassing her father. All of this is just too much for Starr and she agrees to speak out about the night Khalil was shot. Starr gives an interview that sparks more demonstrations and protests about the shooting, but she also dry snitches on King, the gang leader, which provokes his rage and retribution. The Carters decide they need to leave Garden Heights for the suburbs for safety. When the grand jury ultimately refuses to indict the neighborhood explodes into protests that become violent. Starr, Chris , Seven and Kenya have to rescue Devonte from King's House after he is picked up and beaten for trying to leave the gang knowing he'll be killed if they don't get him out. As they run from this situation, they're thrust into the riots that are now occurring due to the lack of justice for Khalil. Star becomes a focal point for the protest when she's handed a megaphone by her attorney and reveals herself publicly as the witness and speaks truth to what she saw. King uses the riots as cover to burn down Maverick's store, but the neighborhood has had enough and turns on him with multiple witnesses telling police they saw King burn the store down. King is arrested, the Carters decide to rebuild the store, and Star begins to embrace her new role as an activist.
Maria:Now a look at the author's bio. Angie Thomas was born in Jackson, Mississippi on September 20th, 1988. She grew up in a low income area and had witnessed gun violence up by the age of six when there was a shooting in a park where she was at. In a 2017 Guardian interview, Thomas says, "I ended up running out of the crossfire and the very next day my mom took me to the library because she wanted me to see that there was more to the world than what I saw that day". Thomas would write her first story, a piece of fiction about Mickey Mouse that very same year. She's a former teen rapper who has an article about her published in Right-On Magazine. In 2009, the Killing of Oscar Grant, an unarmed 22-year-old Black man who was shot in the back by a white police officer in California, prompted Thomas to write a short story that would eventually become her debut novel, the Hate You Give. She was angered by both Grant's Death and the reactions she observed. From the same 2017 Guardian interview, "One thing that stood out about Oscar was the way people talked about his past. Thomas explained at school, people were talking about what he had done, that he may have deserved it, that he was in the wrong. But Oscar could have been any of the young men I get up with who were maybe doing things they shouldn't have been doing. They're all seen as thugs. They're put on trial sometimes for their own death." Thomas was in her senior year of college at the time of these events and wrote the story for a senior project. A professor of her suggested that she could later turn it into a novel. She would turn the story into a novel while working as a secretary to a bishop quote I wrote while I was working, Thomas explains adding apologetically.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all of those curse words were written in a church". <laugh> Thomas had difficulty finding a publisher for The Hate You Give and received help and an award from the nonprofit. We Need Diverse Books. In publishing her wor In 2017, it would become a number one New York Times bestseller and later, a major motion picture. In 2018, Thomas's second book On the Come Up also became a New York Times bestseller and is about a teen rapper. It takes place in the same universe as The Hate You Give. She published Concrete Rose, a prequel to the Hate You Give. In 2021. That same year, she published a book called Blackout, co-authored by Danielle Clayton. Tiffany, D . E. Jackson, Nick Stone, Ashley Woodfolk, and Nicola Yoon. It tells six different linked stories of teenagers living through a blackout in New York City. Thomas published a middle school fantasy novel called Nick Blake and the Remarkables in 2023. Thomas lives in Atlanta with her puppy Kobe .
Speaker 1:All right y'all, so let's get into the discussion. So obviously race is a major, major theme in this book. Star is a 15, 16-year-old black girl living in what is considered to be the hood. Her father is a former gang member. Her mom is a nurse, and her family is basically, her dad wants them to stay living in the hood because he kind of has this mindset of like, well, how can we help our people if we are not staying here and being connected to our people. While on the other hand, her, her mom is very much like, you know, my mom did what she could to get us out of here. Like, why are we still living like this? And you know, Star's uncle is Uncle Carlos and he's also a police officer , um, which I think is an interesting level to add to this story. And Star also has a white boyfriend. I, I, low Key feel like she was trying to do a lot with this book. Sometimes , sometimes <laugh>.
Speaker 4:Yeah, writing the pot summary was hard because there's so many things and they all matter. Yeah. Like , yeah , but it's like there's a lot . Okay . That's a lot of things you have to touch on. It's ,
Speaker 3:It's , it's a complicated plot. It's a long book. There's
Speaker 1:A lot. Yeah . And then her, but I guess the main thing is Star feels like she has to be two different versions of herself. Right? So she has to be the star for Garden Heights, who is who , maybe more so who she really is. And then she has to be the star, the star that's at Williamson, which is, you know, she, one thing that she said that really stood out to me was like, you know, the, everything that she does at her school is automatically makes her seem cool because she's black. The other kids can speak in slang and that makes them cool, but if she does it, she's hood. Um, and it's like her and one other black kid in her grade and they expect them to be together and
Speaker 4:Yeah, I , the, the guy, the
Speaker 1:Ryan White
Speaker 4:Backer , like a
Speaker 1:Football player , it's friend boyfriend. Yeah.
Speaker 4:I thought that was cute how they had the like, jokes together about it.
Speaker 3:They call each other black girlfriend.
Speaker 1:Yeah . Hate black boyfriend. Like, I thought that was so cute. Yeah. I , I just, I'm trying to figure out where to start with the discussion of race. Honestly, what I want to say, I'm gonna say it . I really hated her friend Hailey . Mm .
Speaker 4:Haley's horrible. Yeah. She's
Speaker 1:Terrible. Yeah . Yeah.
Speaker 4:But also I think very real, right? Yes. Like, because while deeper into things, we do get into Hailey being more direct with the racism, even though she doesn't feel like it's racism. Yeah. So much of what she does it is the kind of like microaggression. Even the first incident they had with the joke that sort of started things off, there was a two sides to it. Like in Haley's head they're having fried chicken for lunch. For lunch in the school cafeteria. So she's just like, come on, score the basket, we gotta get to lunch. But she says it is work for the fried chicken or something. Yeah. And that lands predictably very badly with Star. But then when Star tries to explain that to Hailey , Hailey can't comprehend
Speaker 1:That . Take
Speaker 4:That. Yeah . Without being like horribly defensive about it. And I feel like that is extremely real where there are a lot of white folks who, you know, probably would describe themselves as woke or liberal or you know, whatever.
Speaker 1:Understanding the
Speaker 4:Buzzword. Tolerant an
Speaker 1:Ally.
Speaker 4:Yeah, exactly. An ally. That's a really good one. Because Hailey probably would describe herself as an ally. Yeah .
Speaker 1:I have black friends.
Speaker 4:Well, and she went in the protest about Khalil . She walked outta class.
Speaker 3:I've known you for so long, I can't possibly be racist. She said , you've been in my house .
Speaker 4:So she has all of these things that she can point to to show like her virtue, right? Yeah . And it , and it is, there's a lot of virtue signaling there, but she can't for a second internalize or look at her own internalized racism. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . Or even like, even with the fried chicken thing, where I think it was probably an innocent, you know, it was a misunderstanding. She can't even hear how Star is feeling without making it about her. Yeah . Yes. And her feelings and yeah, I mean I think that that's really real and just, you know ,
Speaker 1:She makes herself a victim in like everything, which just really, it's just so, it's very realistic though, to be honest.
Speaker 4:Too easy to go down that road and get in your own feelings about things when it's like you need to just sit back and listen and like hear because it's not about you. Your
Speaker 3:Friend said she was hurt by something you said, like you should
Speaker 4:Listen. Right ? Like , and Hailey just made it all about her. Yeah .
Speaker 1:I hated it . I look you hated . And this is something maybe Hailey would say is like, why does everything have to be about race? And you know, that's something she kinda talks about a lot. Like she kind of just like, well, everything is about race, or you're, you should be apologizing to me for calling me or accusing me of being racist. Like that's a very serious accusation. And they even talk about , um, what did she say? She said something
Speaker 4:Like, well, and Star tried to clarify that too, right? Yeah . Because she said like, I'm not calling you racist, but what you said felt racist to me . Yeah ,
Speaker 3:Yeah . She was very clear.
Speaker 4:Hailey still just wasn't hearing it, you know ,
Speaker 1:And would think as a friend you would be more like, okay, well what did I do to, I would want to get a better understanding, but also I understand that they're teenagers and also like maybe, you know , she automatically felt like defensive of herself, but I just felt like you're always, you are constantly making stuff about you. Even stuff that's not about you. Like, I know we have Tumblr listed on here as something to talk about , but you know, one thing that like, you know , star is like even before, like everybody finds out about what happens with Khalil and the shooting, she's very much like, you know, she , Hailey kind of has been acting kind of different because of, you know, I , I noticed that she unfollowed me on Tumblr after I posted about Emmett Till later on, like closer towards the end. Hailey's kind of just like, well, are you just mad that I didn't wanna see that disgusting stuff? And, and Maya's like, his name was Emmett Till. And it also makes me think about like how like Maya might have been like complacent in a way because like, even though Maya was also a person of color, I think she was Chinese American and she mentioned in the past that uh, Hailey had made a comment to her about like her family eating dogs for Thanksgiving or something like that. Um, Maya never mentioned the Tumblr thing because she said she thought that Hailey was gonna quote unquote come around, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative> . And I guess part of that is also like feeling in the middle between your two friends. But I guess it's also just kind of like, and I guess later on they're kinda just like, oh, well you know, we gotta have our POC like solidarity. But it's also just kind of like,
Speaker 4:Well, and I think Maya was pretty alone. Yeah . Like I don't think we heard about even any other Asian students at the school of any nationality.
Speaker 2:It was more of her like found community or like the community she decided on because just she didn't really seem to have that support either. Yeah.
Speaker 4:So like there would be fear for that too. You know, like, okay, who do I pick here? Well, Hailey has probably the bigger Yeah. Social group. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . And you know, she has deeper roots at the school and stuff. And so she had already kind of tried to let go of that cat comment. Yeah . I think to keep the peace . And that was more, well, I mean, star also wants to keep the peace at times too. And I think that's really real and understandable as well.
Speaker 1:I think like everything that happened with Khalil , like, like even though like they tried to make it seem like, like I can understand star's frustration. It it being just like, you've just been acting weird lately, but like, I feel like a triggering a traumatic event like that can kind of like maybe like heighten your sense of like what is going on around you and maybe kind of reflect on it a little bit more and maybe seeing it in a different view that you hadn't seen it before. Like, oh, like that was kind of racist. And like she does have insensitive things to say about things that actually matter to me and like my community. And I think that while Star is always doing this thing where like, oh, there's like the two different stars. I don't know if she's always like, kind of really sat with why she had to do that entirely. Like yeah, they may think I'm too hood, I'm too ghetto, I'm too this, I'm too that. But it's just like she's not thinking about like, there's the subtle racism that you that, that they may have or that you're worried about, which is why you're not, you're trying to , not trying to make yourself seem like the quote unquote typical black girl.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Which we also see her mom kind of color out on it. Yeah . Um ,
Speaker 1:Which I liked that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Her mom was kind of just like the best friend she probably needed. Yeah. Yeah. Um, at that point it's just like, well you did , you wanted to dye your hair because
Speaker 4:Hailey ,
Speaker 2:Hailey wanted it . You wanted to be guitarist. Yeah . But Hailey told you you should be drummer. And Kenya at the end was also just like the other person who told her how it was You're ashamed of us. Yes. You didn't want us near your other friends. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . So a lot of it impacted like the reasoning for her code switching as well. So was
Speaker 4:I did think too, it was interesting. She has the white boyfriend, Chris <laugh> and Chris,
Speaker 2:He's a complex character. <laugh> , he
Speaker 4:Bless his heart, he tries , um, she keeps a lot from him even though I think on some level she feels a little bit more able to be herself with him on some things. And he
Speaker 1:Says that to her 'cause he is just like you say that, you know, I'm the only person at Williamson that you can really be yourself with, but you're keeping things from me. Yeah . Yeah . But also he didn't had to have that whole attitude when they went to prom just because he felt like, if anything, like you're , you were annoyed by that. Like why not just talk, talk. Yeah. Yeah .
Speaker 4:But they're 16. Yeah . Exactly .
Speaker 2:Mean I feel
Speaker 4:People are not all that mature
Speaker 5:16 going on 17, baby, it's time . And
Speaker 1:He probably didn't realize he was acting weird. He probably just felt some type of way he just
Speaker 4:Felt annoyed and
Speaker 3:Was , even though they're, they're smart and mature, they do act like kids at times . Yeah . It is somewhat realistic. <laugh> , like teenagers, where
Speaker 1:Would books be without miscommunication? Right.
Speaker 3:<laugh> , we need plot.
Speaker 4:I liked him as sort of the alternative to Haley mm-hmm <affirmative> . In that he's not perfect either, right ? Mm-hmm <affirmative> . Like there's a lot of cringey stuff from him in the book as well. And like , and some of it Star seems fine with like the whole fresh princess thing. Yeah. I feel is like super cringe. But she like seemed to like that. You know, there's a moment when he's riding around with them after they rescued Devonte from a really bad situation at King and Aisha's house and they're riding around and he's feeling more comfortable and like he's accepted even though he sticks out as the lone white kid and he asks about the names Black naming . Yeah . Uh , traditions. And he doesn't initially see and they kind of educate 'em on like, what's normal to you isn't normal for the world, you know? Right . Why do you assume that what your tradition is is the standard and what we do is weird or abnormal or wrong or something like that .
Speaker 1:Antes like I know three Dantes . Yeah.
Speaker 3:<laugh>. And then I can't remember who pointed out that there's some really weird white people named it <laugh>.
Speaker 4:Definitely.
Speaker 1:And I , that was very funny. I like that. I feel like, like you said, it kind of shows like the difference between him and Hailey because Chris's response was like more of like a Oh, okay. I didn't see it that way. As opposed to like, Hailey would've probably been more like a That's dumb. That doesn't make sense. Yeah. Shuts it down . Or like if that's
Speaker 4:Yeah, no, she would've just doubled down on like, those are weird names. Yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And while like some people might think that it's cringe that they're like, oh, like as a white kid, can I ask this question? Like, these are, these are conversations people have with their friends. Right. Like I think that anybody who probably thinks sees it as like unnecessarily or unnecessary or fake or overly cringe just probably doesn't have friends <laugh>.
Speaker 3:Like Yeah . Yeah.
Speaker 4:And like, I, I did think on some level that was an appropriate way to like show how if you are friends and you're feeling curious about something ask, don't assume he did at least attempt to be
Speaker 3:Respectful. I guess the question, even though it wasn't the best question, <laugh> No,
Speaker 4:But I mean, I think there is a, like trying to understand your girlfriend who has a very different lived experience. There's not a slick way to do that. Yeah . <laugh> , I don't think you're gonna have to have some hard conversations at some point and in both directions too. Like I'm sure Star has all kinds of questions about Chris's parents weird country club lifestyle. Yeah . <laugh> , you know , so it goes both ways. And so seeing sort of the beginning of where they can talk about that freely mm-hmm <affirmative> . Rather than we're gonna dance around it and neither of us are gonna talk about it. We're just gonna watch Fresh Prince together <laugh> , and like , that'll be enough.
Speaker 1:Speaking of their relationship, I do kind of like how , um, how Uncle Carlos and everybody kind of was hip to the relationship with the dad because the dad never really went over to the neighborhood. He didn't really know. And at first he was just kind of like, mm . But I like that he had that conversation with his daughter and his, he was basically just like, you know, I was worried that I pushed you or like, you know, me being who I am maybe like pushed you away from like having an interest in black men. And she was like, no, you showed me like what I should want in a man period. Like mm-hmm <affirmative> . And I thought that was actually really important because to discuss, because I feel like , um, the topic of like interracial relationships in like the black community, especially with somebody who has a dad as pro-black as hers, that could've like gone left. And I, I like that the author like didn't leave that open for too much interpretation. Like she was just kind of like, because you know, a lot of there are people who date outside of their race solely date outside of their race. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . And Star made it clear. She was like, no, I, you know, I've had black boyfriends in the past even though I was like a kid. So I don't know if they counted , um, who do that in a way where it's like putting down their own race. And I like that. It was very much like a no, that's not the case here. I just happened , you know, to go to a school where there's all these white kids and I just like him, we gravitated towards each other. It wasn't like a, oh, my daddy went to prison and now I think all black men are trash. Like, 'cause that could have easily been misconstrued. I'm glad that that was
Speaker 3:That's just her social circle was Yeah . A lot of them were white kids. Exactly. That's 'cause she went , ended up going to West School. That was
Speaker 1:Yes. And they loved their , they're matching Jordans. <laugh>
Speaker 3:<laugh> . I loved , I loved her relationship with her parents. Oh yeah . I thought they were so well scared . Like the relationship with every and her siblings, like every one of her siblings, her parents, and their relationship with everybody. I thought that was so fleshed out and so complex. Yeah . And so well done. Yeah.
Speaker 4:I thought her whole family was drawn really well. Like even uncle including like the uncle
Speaker 3:Uncle . Yeah . The uncle that were the
Speaker 4:Grandma.
Speaker 3:Like
Speaker 4:They felt like real people. Yeah . They were, you know, flawed but also interesting. I , you know, they weren't , they , they seemed like complex in the way that real people are complex where like, you can love this person, but oh , they're kind of difficult on this thing. Like her grandmother or you can love this person and have real concerns about the career that they've picked and Yeah . What that means about them. Um, it wasn't
Speaker 1:Like automatically like, oh, these people, well, while the media had that perception, like, oh, automatically drug dealer gang banger , these people are bad. But I like that they kind of like went into it more. Like they're basically, I , I can't think it might've been like Devonte or maybe Star was just thinking like, nobody wants to be a drug dealer. I guess they don't choose that life because they have so many options and that's just what they wanted. You know? And so I thought that it was really important that they reflected on that. And I liked , I don't know if, I think that maybe her having a police officer as an uncle might have been overkill. I'm curious if that was like always in the story. 'cause I feel like in some way, like it's in the description. We even say that she had a hard time getting this book published. So like, I'm wondering like, did they like, well, you know, you gotta include that's not all Cops in there Somehow or something.
Speaker 3:I couldn't find because when I was researching for the Author Bio, I didn't find anything that kind of said why she had lots of rejections. So I'm not sure mm-hmm <affirmative> . What the reason for it was. It just kind of said that she had a ton of rejections Yeah . And to try to get it published. And eventually that nonprofit helped her. And it was a little bit vague on the details of how it ended up published. But Yeah . Um, I am curious as to what
Speaker 1:<laugh> , I feel like the topic of the book is probably the reasons for the rejection .
Speaker 3:Maybe that , that maybe that was it. It
Speaker 1:Was probably too real for some people
Speaker 4:With her uncle. And I felt like that was probably always in there because she did have such a through line of pop culture from different times going through their Okay . They watch The Fresh Prince. She loves that show and Chris loves that show and they bond over that. But there's the reference to her, like aunt and uncle being the Huxtables. Oh
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Okay. Yeah . And I mean, they like kind of literally did that. Like they just dropped
Speaker 3:The genders because it
Speaker 1:Was the
Speaker 4:Mom that was the doctor and then the dad that was like law enforcement. 'cause I think Claire was an attorney, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative> . But I think to contrast with her family wanting to stay in the neighborhood Yeah . And stuff. And then their feelings that like to move away was to like betray the neighborhood mm-hmm <affirmative> . Or give it up in some way. I thought it was really good when they had that discussion with Carlos saying like,
Speaker 1:I love the neighborhood too, essentially.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Like, this is how I'm choosing to help my neighborhood. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . You know, like I, I felt like a call to go serve in this way so that it's someone who's from, you know Yeah . Garden Heights that's working in Garden Heights and dealing with the crimes in Garden Heights rather than an outsider who's more likely to not view this person as a human being, but a , a black kid reaching for a gun. You know? And he kind of evolved on that initial point where it's like, well, any cop could do this if they're scared where he's taking that blue line thing to the end of the book where he's saying like, I know in my heart I would not have shot mm-hmm <affirmative> . Um, because I would've only, like, I would've seen Khalil as a human being. Right . Not as a thug and a threat and a Yes . You know, I would've seen him as a kid who was scared and confused by the stop. And that's, that's what what people do when they get pulled over by cops, you know? Yeah .
Speaker 1:And he also talks about how , um, you know, I know like there was the , well , when they were talking about like how the case was going to go, whether or not the grand jury was gonna indict, you know, that he was saying that there was, you know, there are a lot of us who want, you know, justice in this case because it was him saying that I could believe him. There was the whole thing where Star confided in him telling him that the officer held his gun on me the entire time. He was like shocked. And for the while he was the only person that knew that. But then, you know, she goes over to his house the next time and sees that he's home from work and she's like, why are you home? And he is like, oh, I'm, you know, just on a little bit of leave and she notices his knuckles are bloody and Yeah . Yeah. So yeah,
Speaker 3:You , I would, you kind of wanna hear more about Uncle Carlos's perspective, right. Um, 'cause Yeah. You see him going back and forth between like the his colleagues and the sort of policing wall and Right . What his training has probably socialize him into. And then, you know, his community and
Speaker 4:Well, and ultimately he punched the guy because he had held star at gunpoint. Yes . After he had shot Khalil rather than for the shooting. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . And I thought Uncle Carlos was an interesting sort of third party look at things because he kind of, I think still felt like he understood why a cop would be scared mm-hmm <affirmative> . And why a cop might shoot even when it's unjustified mm-hmm <affirmative> . And that it's, it's not necessarily like, oh, that that cop is in the KKK on Right . The weekends or something. It's so much is internalized through this job. Yes . Through your experiences, through media, through all of these things that it's not a conscious thing necessarily. It's a reaction in the moment. And so I think he had like some sympathy for that mm-hmm <affirmative> . As a cop, but at the same time he's saying like, but that's not okay. Like, we have to do better than that. And, and so I think having that view rather than just sort of the neighborhood view that like, nah , this dude just came out here to, to kill a black kid who was unarmed and then the, you know, white view, which was, oh, he's a cop. He got scared 'cause he pulled over this gang banger who was probably going for a gun and he is a drug dealer and all of that. And so having kind of that middle path where it's like, okay, I understand that this may not have been like an intentional murder. Like he went out looking to kill somebody, but it's still wrong. And how did we get here? I thought that was a really like, valuable thing in a book for teens mm-hmm <affirmative> . Because I think as a teen it's easy to be very like, binary about things. Yeah . Like it's wrong or it's right. And there's a bad guy and a good guy. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . And there's this and there's that. And like, it's always more complicated than that. 'cause it's, it's society, it's the media, it's all of these things just like Haley's like casual racism that she doesn't even view as racism.
Speaker 1:I rolled my eyes every time she came in the book, y'all <laugh> .
Speaker 4:It's like, that is, but that's how that builds. Right? Yeah. So if she's like that at 16, if she's a cop at 30, you know Yeah . Built into what she's doing then. Because
Speaker 1:Even when she was watching the tv , like when she was watching it on, when she saw it on the tv, when they were in Mo , I think it was Maya's room, and she was just basically just like, oh, that, that poor cop, they took her away from his family and dah , dah , dah , dah , dah . Even though he's not dead. Right? Like nothing happened to him. He's not taken away from his family, but because of the media and how they're , you know, whatever. What did she, I highlighted when she said that me out
Speaker 4:So bad . She trotted his dad out crying and
Speaker 3:Stuff . She went from being like, she , I mean like she, that that the incident, like with the, the comment, she then she, she just, she just doubled down and then went to terrible places that you at the beginning of the book we're hard to envision her saying, you know Yeah . With being presented as her friend at the beginning.
Speaker 4:But I still think at the end of the book, if someone asked Haley , are you racist? She'd get really mad about it. Be like, no,
Speaker 3:Because she doesn't want to be called that. The worst
Speaker 1:Ones are low key . The ones who don't think that they are because at least, you know, it's hard . They, they, they really infiltrate themselves into your lives, into your community. And then they just dropped hints here and not hints, but like, they do things here and there that have an impact. 'cause you know, if somebody's a blatant racist, it's easy to avoid them.
Speaker 4:Right. And you can just write them off. Right. You know, like
Speaker 1:She was genuinely like, I , you know, I like the way that she was genuinely like , uh, star was genuinely like upset about, you know, their friendship and what they lost. Like, I think it's okay to recognize that, you know, while this person may have been harmful to you, you can also recognize that you guys had a good friendship at cer at a certain point in your life. And that, you know, you guys were there for each other. And while she may, she may not, she may not be a bad person. I mean, if you ask me, I don't really like her, but she <laugh> . But you know, she may not be a bad person. She just is maybe a little misguided. Yeah. So, you know, star and Kalo , they haven't seen each other in a while. And , um, they see, they meet up at this, they see each other at this party, and then there's a shooting that happens at the party. So basically Khalil's like, come on Star, let's go. He gets in the car with her , um, and they get pulled over. And Star is very much like parents have given her the talk. So, you know, when you interact with the police officer puts your hands where they can't see them and dah dah . And she's like, in her head, she's like, I hope somebody had the talk with Khalil . And , but
Speaker 4:Khalil was like raised by his grandma, right ? Mm-hmm <affirmative> . Mm-hmm <affirmative> . And so she felt like maybe not 'cause there was, you know, not the same figure like she had with her dad, you know? Yeah, exactly. Or with Uncle Carlos even mm-hmm <affirmative> . Yeah .
Speaker 1:And yeah, so it gets pulled over and , uh, the , she , he , he asks the police officer, like, why did you pull me over? Which is something he has a right to do. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . But you're, you know, in a way I feel like we're kind of taught not to do that because it's like, almost like his skin of color doesn't allow you to ask those kind of questions. And the officer basically is just like, what did he say? He said something about a he was speeding and a taillight or something like that. Right?
Speaker 4:Yeah. The taillight was out,
Speaker 1:The was out or something like that. And then he of course has Khal get out the car and Khal while the officer is,
Speaker 4:Well, he pats him down like multiple times, like three times. Yeah . So it's pretty clear from, well at least to me from Star's description, description , that the pullover was not really about the taillight. Right. It was about like, oh, I'm gonna bust this kid for drives .
Speaker 1:I'm find something. Yeah. Because
Speaker 4:He's gotta have something on him. Right.
Speaker 1:Maybe it was that , I don't know if y if you ever heard anybody say this, you know what they say at the end of the month of they heard . I've heard .
Speaker 4:Yeah, I've heard . I've definitely heard that . Yeah .
Speaker 1:But yeah. And then at that point, you know, he gets out the car and , um, after that, after all that he gets out the car and , um, while the officer's checking his ID or whatever, like , uh, he kind of like leans in. I think he leans in to check on Star. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . Or I think he's about to open the car door or something like that. And then that's when the officers like, essentially like, you know, shoots and kills Khalil . That was really, it happened. I , I listened to the audio to the book this time around, so it was so hard to me too hear. Yeah. Like, it happened. It all happened so fast. Yeah. I don't, I just, it was so hard to hear . 'cause it's just like, and this is the one thing that I will say that I , 'cause I'm trying not to get too much into the movie versus the book, but this is the one thing that they changed that really kind of frustrated me in the book. It's very clear like he's going to check on Star and , and later on the officer claims to have seen a a
Speaker 4:That he was reaching for something, that he
Speaker 1:Was reaching for something
Speaker 4:Like a hairbrush or a pick is what it turned out to
Speaker 1:Be . Yeah . The hairbrush. Mm-hmm . But it turned out to be he, the officer claimed that he thought he was reaching for something because he said he saw it in like the, the passenger, the , the door,
Speaker 4:The black handle or something. The
Speaker 1:Door. Yeah. Um, but in the movie it's very much like, oh, Kalo reaches reach . Like, he leans into check on Star, but he also, he does grab his hairbrush and is about to start brushing his hair. And I'm just like, wow .
Speaker 4:I don't think anyone would do that Exactly . Reason to like , make it more like, I don't know, that feels like it's trying to even still like walk it back to make it more understandable. Like, Khalil messed up. Yeah. Like why would you do that? Which Yeah. No one's gonna start brushing their hair during a, a traffic
Speaker 1:Stop.
Speaker 4:That's bizarre.
Speaker 1:Yes. And it's almost like, and that , that is somewhat , that really infuriated me. I'm not gonna lie, because it almost was like, it was trying to find a way to make it more like, well, the officer really did have a reason to fear for his life. Right. I don't like that change . And granted, that's not to say that, you know, maybe he didn't fear for his life in, you know, kalo like, supposedly like leaning into the car and possibly reaching for something. But it just makes it so much more like, oh, well maybe he did deserve it because why would you do something like that in that moment? Right . Because
Speaker 4:That's like inexplicable action. Whereas what he does in the book is very normal and relatable. Yeah . Anybody would be worried about the friend that they have in the car that's really freaking out. Yeah. And might lean to, you know , check on them , be like, Hey, is everything good? She's like
Speaker 3:Visibly shaking up .
Speaker 4:Yeah . Like , I could visualize it so clearly from her writing. Yeah. And that's a huge change. That doesn't make any sense because then that just makes clue look dumb. Like, who does that? Yeah . Yeah . Well, nobody would do that. Yes. And so, yeah, no, I, I agree that they changed that that's a mistake.
Speaker 1:Yes. And I think that with seeing that on the screen, you just look at it as like, like on the screen it really portrays like, this man, this, this young not man, he's not a man, he's a boy. This boy has no respect for police, for authority. Like, it's coming. And I really, I really didn't like that because I mean, either way, even if that's who Klos character was, if he, you know, if he really was like, eh , I don't care about police, da da , whatever, like, he still would not have deserved that. Right. But I think that because that's not how the author wrote it, I don't like that that's how it's shown in the movie. It
Speaker 3:Seems like an unnecessary detail to add. Yeah . It changes things. Yeah . Weirdly, it , it , yeah.
Speaker 1:I also like, so before that happens, right? Like they're in the car and um, you know, the title, the title of the book is The Hate You Give, which is, I guess it's , uh, from like something too popul related 'cause Yeah , it's th Thug Life Thug. Yeah. So in K
Speaker 4:The acronym.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So Kil N Star have that conversation in the car, but , you know, thug Life , the Hate You give Fs every, but the Hate, you give Little Fs everybody or something like that. Right . And I was like, I wasn't hip to that before, but I , I kind of liked how they like incorporated that into the title. And in the book it's interesting because like even a kid of that age, most of them don't listen to Tupac. So it was kind of like a, I don't know , I'm just rambling at this point. I got something to say. <laugh>
Speaker 3:<laugh> .
Speaker 4:I don't know . My only , like, I was reading that, I mean, I was , I was thinking about like, yeah, gosh, I guess kids probably don't listen to Tupac, which was like weird to me. 'cause that was so like <laugh>. I mean, I, I was just thinking about when I was working at this camp in la , um, like I, I was in the dorms and the hall that I was on, the room that I was in, someone had like carved in the, the doorframe like, you know, it's like a college dorm cinder block. And they like rose painted brown doorframe and they had carved thug life in it. And I remember when I got there, I was like, oh, cool. The person that had this room, like Tupac so <laugh> , but then Star was so unaware. Yeah . Which seemed weird to me, but I guess for her that would be like her parents' music. Yeah. Yeah . So it wouldn't have been cool to listen to. But then I was like, but you're watching Fresh Prince and stuff. Like, you can't , you like some of this like throwback stuff. Like, but why are you not listening to the good music? But,
Speaker 3:But apparently like there was, I think there was a time relatively recently, I don't know if they're still doing it, where teenagers were watching a bunch of like 90 shows <laugh> . Yeah .
Speaker 2:It was , so then it was on, on TV a lot. Yeah . Like Nickelodeon would Air Fresh Prince of Bair throughout like the evening. So, and a lot of stars, like pop culture comes from TV shows and TV movies or like,
Speaker 1:And also like, she was really like into Tumblr. Right. So like, I feel like, I feel like Tumblr like impacts like, or influences like certain things that you wanted to get into. Like, I remember getting to into a lot of TV shows because like, I saw 'em on Tumble. Like, I watched Misfits because Misfits was like really popular on Tumblr. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Maybe there were fandom she was into.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:Well , Harry Potter was like one of the ones where her dad was just like, she was
Speaker 1:So into Harry Potter
Speaker 4:Liked , I thought her like her dad's Yeah . <laugh> impression of Harry Potter was awesome. Was like , yeah, you're right. That's
Speaker 1:True. <laugh> like, yeah. Like these , this is totally about gangs. You recognize that they have their colors . They ,
Speaker 2:I mean , and at the end of the day, he wasn't wrong. The prophecy
Speaker 6:Said neither one can live. Or the other women's
Speaker 2:Boys Harry did have to kill <laugh> .
Speaker 1:Do y'all think that, do y'all think that if this book had came out like more recently that she would've changed up the Harry Potter references?
Speaker 3:Mm . I was wondering that.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Maybe . I mean, that's more untouchable now. Yeah . I think because it, yeah. Like just even declaring that fandom now, I think. Yeah .
Speaker 2:And even if maybe she hadn't removed it, her editor maybe would have probably Yeah . Maybe take this out and stuff .
Speaker 3:Although, I mean, there's still a lot of people making money off Harry Potter, so . Oh no ,
Speaker 1:Absolutely. It's
Speaker 4:Still huge. Yeah . But I feel like someone as aware as Star would have feelings about, and now I, granted we, we don't find out anything about how Star feels about the LGBT LGBTQ community or anything. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . But I feel like that would influence how she thinks about that intellectual property, that the creator is problematic and she would step away from that. But I
Speaker 3:Mean, and Angie Thomas and I don't know a ton about her and I don't know her, but I mean, she seems very socially aware, very activist , very, like I I'm sure she has her finger on the pulse of
Speaker 1:Right. That's what I was thinking. I was just, I mean, and obviously like, I'm not like, dang . So no . While I was reading , I was like, dang, that's a lot of Harry Potter references. But I wasn't like, dang, like, why is this in a book? Because obviously I understood when the book came out. So like,
Speaker 4:Yeah. Well, and also I thought that that was kind of a clever thing because Harry Potter is this huge fandom mm-hmm <affirmative> . And certainly at that time was maybe even bigger than it is now. And to show something that, I mean, every white kid in America has <laugh> some knowledge, like they know Harry Potter exists and they at least have the broad like sketches of mm-hmm <affirmative> . What it's about. And so using this very, you know, ubiquitous cultural touchpoint and then saying like, okay, but look how it reads to Maverick. Right . <laugh> , he's relating to that too . Just in a different way. Mind you, he wasn't , it made that a lot more relatable. Maybe for a kid that's reading it , it was like, oh yeah, that's a good point. Okay. Now maybe I understand the Tupac stuff a little bit more. Yeah . 'cause okay. Like, yeah, that is the same thing. You're having fights with people who aren't like you and you found this group that is like you and they keep you safe and they like, there is a lot to what Maverick
Speaker 1:Said, and then I'm saying , and then him calling Hailey , uh, she who shall not be named or something
Speaker 4:Like that. <laugh> .
Speaker 1:Like, I like JK aside, and mind you, I don't have much Harry Potter knowledge, but like, I thought that the way that she like weaved those references throughout the book was actually really clever. Yeah , I
Speaker 4:Thought so too.
Speaker 1:Um, and one thing that we didn't really talk about much yet is how , uh, star this is. Like, so seeing Khalil shooting, this is not the first time she's seen somebody being like shot mm-hmm . And gunned down in front of her. Like, this is the second time, like Yeah , Natasha when she was 10 years old. Yeah .
Speaker 2:10 . So that's just six years. Yeah . Six years after.
Speaker 4:And like a super like narrow miss for her. Yeah . Because, you know, it not only happened like right in front of her and right next to her, like Star probably only didn't get hit because Natasha got hit. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . And Star like fell over or something. That's a near death experience. Yeah . On top of watching your friend Bush , she dove
Speaker 2:A door Rose Bush
Speaker 4:Of you. Yeah. And like
Speaker 2:She had, I think she had blood on her from the thorns and thought at first she'd
Speaker 4:Been dead . She'd been shocked . Yeah. Like , I hope
Speaker 1:They found her therapy so much.
Speaker 4:I hope so. Too. <laugh> . I know . I did kind of like with that it was like, oh gosh, I I wish she had gotten some help. Yeah . From someone, which
Speaker 2:Now that you mentioned the Rose Bush, like at the end, her dad is also rescuing the Roses as well from like the store. Yeah. It's just like he's cutting it up and it's just like if you change the soil, they'll flourish again.
Speaker 1:Is that the Concrete Rose reference is That's
Speaker 4:Tupac reference. That's a Tupac thing too. Yeah . So I, I thought that was intentional as well. Yeah. I mean, she's doing a lot in this book. It's, it's complex. I mean, it's certainly written at a level that a teenager or younger than that can understand it mm-hmm . And enjoy it, even if they're not catching all the references. But I think there's a lot of symbolism and stuff that is there to explore if you wanna read it more deeply. For sure. Yeah .
Speaker 2:It was,
Speaker 1:I actually, I really enjoyed this, this like, like you said, how you said you read it cover to cover. Like, I literally started yesterday and I finished today. Like, and when I, I didn't finish up right before we recorded this time, so go me <laugh> a couple hours ahead of time. I did <laugh>
Speaker 4:<laugh> .
Speaker 1:But like, I, I actually like, 'cause I was reading in between like desk shifts and I actually was looking forward to like being able to come back and pick up where I left off because I think it had been, even though I got the gist of the story, it had been so long since I read it, I was able to enjoy it almost like I read it for the first time. Mm-hmm
Speaker 4:<affirmative>. I did think it was a little weird though with all of her kind of fandoms for things that were like nostalgia. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . Like nineties stuff, like Fresh Prince. I was a little confused why she didn't have like, EE even Tupac as an actor. Yeah . Like, she seemed very like not connected at all to the music from that time. Yeah . Which is weird with Will Smith. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . Like you would think, okay, well at least she would've been interested in him as a rapper. But like, even if she only liked film tv, that is she not watching those like nineties movies or the like late eighties stuff that had, because like Tupac was very multifaceted and he was, I don't know, I guess like I expected that she would've been into that as well, but maybe not.
Speaker 3:No, that's, yeah, that's a really good point. Um,
Speaker 1:Oh , you mean Star as a character? Yeah.
Speaker 4:Okay. Yeah . Like that she would've just been like feeling that era and would've dabbled in a lot of things and would've encountered him. Like, I don't know, I guess I was thinking like, I feel like how do you miss him in the whole, like,
Speaker 1:I feel like, like, because with like with what you said about like , um, the Fresh Prince being like reruns on Nickelodeon a lot, I feel like that made it a lot more accessible as opposed to like maybe some of the other stuff that Tupac is in. Because honestly, like even me, I'm 31, right? Like , I don't know a lot of Tupac, like what he's been in and like his music especially not as like a teen maybe like now it's more so looking back, I know more of it, but like I didn't know much. And so Star's character, I believe. I think because I was looking up something. I think Star and Khalil , all them , their age range is more of like born in the early two thousands I think. Yeah,
Speaker 4:It would be because if she was like 2001 16 . Yeah .
Speaker 1:Yeah . So , um, that's , that's not too surprising then.
Speaker 4:Did well, so the other question about that is, <laugh> , where does this take place? So this is a fictional community. Mm-hmm . This is not like a real town. Yes. But are we supposed to think this is like roughly like, equivalent to like LA and we're talking like Compton versus Westwood? Or is this supposed to be New York or Chicago? Like I was really trying to, or Atlanta or Dallas or Houston. Like, I was trying to guess at where it was placed. And there's not a lot there because she doesn't write a lot about weather or mm-hmm <affirmative> . Uh , like descriptors about , uh, physical surroundings that give you a lot . And maybe that's intentional so it's not in a specific place. But then I was like, okay, well maybe she's East Coast and that's why she doesn't like West Coast now . <laugh> . Like , I was trying to figure something out with that. 'cause I was really like, how do you not know Tupac girl when you're like into stuff like that ?
Speaker 3:It's hot at one point, but we don't hear, is it , is it hot dry? Is it hot? Humid? Yeah . We don't really like get changing of the season throughout the book. We don't get like references to like, if they're near the coast.
Speaker 4:Yeah. It's just hard to place it
Speaker 3:Where it is .
Speaker 2:I mean, I , I don't know , at least for me growing up, like Tupac movies for instance, were , we had cable by then. So if you had , um,
Speaker 1:How old are
Speaker 2:You? I'm 31. No , 32. Okay .
Speaker 1:So we're about , yeah . Sorry, I hope you don't make me asking you that . No , no , it's fine. I
Speaker 2:Just couldn't remember for a moment. Um, but yeah, no, like a lot of them were showing up on the not a MC , but some of like the, like those movie
Speaker 1:Channels. Yeah . Those movie
Speaker 4:Channels. I mean , even like things like, like USA and TNTI feel like would play like Spike Lee movies and stuff and Yeah.
Speaker 2:But I don't know, at least when I was reading it, a lot of the dialogue just reminded me of PG County. Hmm . Like , it is like what I grew up hearing. So I was just like, is this east coast? Because I, for , while I was reading it, I was just like, this seems like East Coast. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, so, you know, so what I'm seeing here, I, I tried to see if I could get a Google search on the setting. So SparkNotes says, setting Place Garden Heights, an inner city neighborhood in the southern part of the United States. Possibly a fictionalized version of the Georgetown neighborhood of Jackson, Mississippi and the suburb associated with that city. Okay. But it's also interesting because, you know, Google's AI overview, which I don't really care for at all, and I don't, that's which is why I didn't read it first. It , it , it thinks that it's a fictional California neighborhood.
Speaker 4:That's think that was my initial thought, but then I was like, there's no way she'd be growing up there and not like, at least be familiar with Tupac. No , because it's huge. Yeah . Like you just No , like when I was in LA No. Like, again, the life on the door, like he is so present and Yeah . And that was in the two thousands. Yeah . That I was there. There's no way she missed that if she's in la . So that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah. No , the author wrote this like around 2009 for her class. So that was my senior year of high school. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . And that , like, we knew about Tupac especially because our teachers were like huge if , like, especially my art teachers. I went to school in Fairmont Heights, which is like right by DC So like all of our teachers, especially our art teachers were always playing mm-hmm <affirmative> . Tupac. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . Um , or Biggie while we were like working on our projects. So I don't know. Yeah. I think it's interesting that she wouldn't be familiar
Speaker 1:And even over here on Google trying to find like stills from the movie and see if there's anything else outside , like , can't figure out what the house is there , are there palm trees out there?
Speaker 3:I feel like, oh yeah. I feel like her dad would, her dad would've played Tupac for her. Yeah. Like the way he like, 'cause he would like quizzed them on quote , like, you know, he, he clearly was mattered to , to him, to maybe he thought of pop culture as a different education.
Speaker 4:Well that's what pulled me over to like, they must be on the East coast and he like is anti Tupac because he is pro Biggie or something, but you know ,
Speaker 3:She talk
Speaker 1:Completely oblivious to it . She just felt like that made Kaa old head for listening to it. <laugh> .
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Which made her align him more . His dad pretty cool . Yeah . <laugh> . Yeah. You know,
Speaker 3:Am I misremember? Did she , didn't you talk to her dad about Tupac? She did . Said she did eventually . So he was a Tupac fan.
Speaker 2:Yes. Yeah .
Speaker 4:Confused . I I , yeah . I was <crosstalk> . I dunno where these people live.
Speaker 3:It's relevant. No , but it's , it's a very good point . It point like the Simpsons with what Springfield like . Yeah . Which could be like anywhere, every
Speaker 4:State has a Springfield,
Speaker 3:Right . <laugh> . No,
Speaker 4:It , it is interesting though. I do wonder in retrospect if it might have been interesting or helpful if she had grounded it in a real place rather than making it a fictional place.
Speaker 2:Which is probably why she, what Howa was saying earlier, that she wanted characters to any kind of like young black girl to identify with Star . It was maybe the same with like the area.
Speaker 4:Well and then you also would be looking at like real gangs rather than like MANUP ones. And so maybe that would just not feel authentic. Like you can't really like write it to LA and be talking about the King Lords and the Garden Heights because those aren't like things like it would be Crips and Bloods. Yeah . And like Yeah. I,
Speaker 1:And
Speaker 4:That makes a lot of sense. Yeah.
Speaker 1:One thing that they said in the book that I thought was interesting was like, yeah, nobody around here drives a car that's gray or green unless they're a king lord or a disciple. And I was like gray
Speaker 3:<laugh> , but every car, like every car sell is gray . Like you can't buy a car that's not gray. <laugh>
Speaker 4:Some lady and like a gray, like
Speaker 7:We got a Sienna to match how awesome
Speaker 4:Toyota Sienna. So
Speaker 7:I like to call it the swagger wagon. Yeah . You came up with that .
Speaker 4:She's repping King Lord .
Speaker 3:Great minivan .
Speaker 1:Oh my God, that's actually hilarious. Okay. One thing I talked about before we started recording was the difference of Star in the book versus Star in the movie in terms of like who they chose to play Star in the movie. So , uh, in the book and on the cover of the book, right. So Angie Thomas quickly describes Star as being medium brown complexion. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . The cover of the book has star on the cover and she is what I envision when I think of a medium brown complexion, something closer to my own complexion. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . For the movie. Amanda Stenberg is playing star who is very, Amanda Stenberg is actually biracial. So she's very, very light-skinned black actress. Not at all. What I think about when I think of medium brown complexion and a lot of people were discussing that when the movie was about to come out and , um, it was interesting because Angie Thomas , um, basically was like, you know, I don't do, I don't control the cover art, but I was also very vague about what Star looked like because I wanted every black girl to see themselves in her. And while that's something that I can understand, and while I do think that it's probably just more so a , she didn't think that people were gonna look that deep into who they chose, I do kind of feel like, I feel like the story probably would've benefited from maybe having an actress who was maybe like more like medium brown. Like she was described in the book. Because I feel like, I feel like when you're talking about something like race and police brutality, I feel like complexion does kind of play colorism and complexion does kind of play a part in how you are perceived by the police. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . Um ,
Speaker 4:And by the media too.
Speaker 1:And by the media too. Exactly. Um, and I think that , uh, even like with Star and how her hanging out with Seven Seven Sister Kenya , I feel like when you see it on the screen, it almost looks more like a look at this brown skin , brown skin ghetto girl next to this light-skinned black girl who goes to a private school mm-hmm <affirmative> . And is completely different. Like, and I know it's not probably meant to read or see like that, but that's literally what it looks like on screen . Well and I kind of hate it. <laugh>.
Speaker 4:Yeah . And that too, to me seems to like ring a little hollow because doesn't she in the book talk about , uh, Carlos and Lisa? So Lisa, the mom mm-hmm <affirmative> . Carlos, the uncle. Doesn't she say Carlos got the lighter skin and that, and , and that her mom is more medium skinned. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . Which I think is also like her grandma. And she's talking about how she kinda looks like her mom mm-hmm <affirmative> . And all of this. But I, I thought that the implication was also that like Carlos was like benefited from having lighter skin. And so he has integrated into this white community more easily than say, like Devonte will. Right. Though Devonte does just fine when he gets there. He goes little games with Chris all the time. But like, you know , I , I playing video games thought she was kind of making some statements about colorism. 'cause she does bring up complexion several times. Yes . She referred to somebody as high yellow. Yeah. She, I mean, it's present in the book. So to then say like, oh no, that's not really a thing. Eh ,
Speaker 1:I would've rather her just been like, yeah, they picked , they picked, this is what we chose. Because I mean, honestly, like, besides the , the complexion, I do kind of feel like, you know, the act , the , you know, Amanda did a really great job of like portraying star in terms of like how, you know, there it was written, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative> . And that's all I'll say about the movie, but I do feel like that was , uh, that choice to change that and also like, kind of not stand on business, like with what you chose just made it feel like there , there's levels like nuance, you know? Um, yeah.
Speaker 3:And I think we get a, I think we get a pretty clear picture of Star's physical appearance. I think so , yes . At the start of the book. And then throughout , like she's described as like physically small. We get like a , like you said, the sense of her skin tone, weave sense of how long her hair is , what her eyebrows look like.
Speaker 1:They get , they gased us into thinking. She didn't say
Speaker 3:That, but I think we get a pretty clear sense of her, even her personal style. Like, I had a Jordan clear a picture of what she looked like on
Speaker 4:The party with the big sweatshirt . I was
Speaker 3:Reading it
Speaker 4:Wearing
Speaker 1:Seven's hoodie.
Speaker 4:Hoodie. Yeah. I , I thought I had a very clear image in my mind's eye of her. And yeah, it , it's not ru from Hunger Games, but I guess that's, and and again, like, I feel like the easy thing there is to be like, you know, she blew us away with her performance and we felt like she really captured mm-hmm <affirmative> . You know , the spirit of Star. And that was the priority for me. Fine. But to say it's not in the book, it is in the book, it is
Speaker 1:The , the whole concept of like snitching and dry snitching. And I, I, I thought that it was really interesting how like leveled, it kind of was in this book in a sense, because you have, what's the , what's the store owner's name?
Speaker 4:Oh, Mr. Lewis.
Speaker 3:Lewis . Mr. Lewis basically gets , I was so scared for him . <laugh> . I know . I was like, that guy is gonna get , I was like , whatcha doing?
Speaker 1:But he didn't care. He didn't
Speaker 3:Care at all.
Speaker 4:No , he was done.
Speaker 3:He , he was like, I fought a war riding , but stay well . Well , and then
Speaker 4:He was like, I'm retiring. He was just at the end of his rope with all of that nonsense with King. He
Speaker 1:Was like, I'm tired of this gang bs. Which I think is an interesting, like, nuanced way of discussing it . Especially because I feel like there are a lot of people who, well , I, I can't speak for this experience because I did not live in the hood, but like, there are people who are just kind of like, you know, these people are coming into our neighborhoods and ruining everything and why should we protect them? Which is like an understandable way of thinking of things. But then you also have like a, they, they felt like Star going on TV and basically saying like, well, Kalo was selling drugs because he was trying to help his mom get out of the debt. In a way they also kind of saw that as snitching, even though she didn't necessarily like name. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . Mm-hmm <affirmative> . Names
Speaker 3:Her lawyer even warned her against, well not about that part, but about to avoid talking about that aspect. Talking about , yeah.
Speaker 1:All right , y'all wanna get into this quiz? Okay. So the quiz that we are taking today is called , um, what nineties Rapper Are You? You know, because this book was obviously very heavily influenced by Tupac. Come on ,
Speaker 8:Come on . Changes Wake .
Speaker 1:Thought that would be fun. Shout out to Heather for finding it. Which rap lyric is your favorite? I hear Brenda's got a baby. I
Speaker 8:Hear Brenda's got a baby , but Brenda's barely got a break . A
Speaker 1:Shake . 1, 2, 3 into the four.
Speaker 9:1, 2, 3 into the four . Snoop doggy Do . And Dr is
Speaker 1:At the , you're the type of guy that has no idea. I'm the type
Speaker 10:Of guy that shows up on the scene and gets the seven
Speaker 1:To the extreme. I rocka mic like a vandal to the
Speaker 11:Extreme . I rock a mic like a vandal lot off the stage and watch a chu like a
Speaker 4:Can dole . That's so random . <laugh> .
Speaker 3:I ,
Speaker 1:I kind of like that last one. I , I don't know where all these are from. I ,
Speaker 3:It's the Vandal one has a nice sound to it. <laugh> . Oh no ,
Speaker 1:I like it to the extreme. I rock a mic like a V .
Speaker 4:Oh no. Okay, well
Speaker 3:What are ,
Speaker 4:That's the wrong answer.
Speaker 3:<laugh> wrong answer .
Speaker 4:Okay, I'm going. 1, 2, 3 into the four <laugh> .
Speaker 1:Which rapper would you rather hang out with? Humpty Hump. Dr. Dre. Cool . Moie or Macklemore? Uh, I
Speaker 3:Only recognize Dr. Dre and M <laugh> .
Speaker 4:Yeah, for sure. It's Dre.
Speaker 3:Um ,
Speaker 1:I'm picking Cool Modi because , uh, uh, I don't know who that is, but I like the name so we'll work
Speaker 3:With it . <laugh> , I , I'm just going with Dr. Drake 'cause I, I I don't wanna hang with Macklemore . I don't recognize <laugh> . I'm
Speaker 1:Gonna pop some tags
Speaker 3:In my pocket .
Speaker 1:Oh my goodness.
Speaker 4:Oh , I'm trying to get Snoop here so I'm gonna stay consistent.
Speaker 1:<laugh> . Okay . Okay . You know what you're looking for. Okay. So how important is it to you for , is it to you to hang with the ladies? It's not at the top of my list. Pretty important, but I would rather ha party with my buddies. It's the most important thing for sure. Or I would rather work on my dance moves. I mean,
Speaker 4:I don't know which of these is , it's a snoop answer necessarily.
Speaker 3:So
Speaker 4:I'm gonna go with a party with my buddies, I think. Right . <laugh> .
Speaker 1:Do you like we
Speaker 3:<laugh> .
Speaker 1:I like it, but it's not important to me. It's not, it's the most important thing ever. I like it, but I like the ladies more. I don't get into it much. I don't get into it much. <laugh>.
Speaker 3:<laugh> .
Speaker 4:I feel like I have to say it's the most important thing ever to get Snoop.
Speaker 3:Yeah , I think everyone
Speaker 4:I'm with it
Speaker 3:To
Speaker 4:Get here.
Speaker 1:I love how like she's very specifically on a mission and the rest of us
Speaker 4:Are just, I mean , because I don't wanna be like, well first of all, that first answer makes me think that we've got like vanilla ice floating over .
Speaker 3:No , not Vanilla Ice.
Speaker 4:So I'm trying to avoid that.
Speaker 1:What I end up with with that
Speaker 4:Also . I don't wanna be LL Cool J
Speaker 1:But the ladies love . Oh uh , that's clearly where they're going with all these ladies questions.
Speaker 4:Okay . Yeah . This is all him. But like, I'm okay with Tupac or Snoop. Okay. So going for one of those.
Speaker 1:How good of a dancer are you? I am pretty good. Not that great. I am better than most. I am the best. Not that great. Not that great.
Speaker 4:I'm okay. I'm also
Speaker 3:Okay. <laugh>,
Speaker 1:Do you work out ? Not really. Not at all. All the time. Most days I do. I do not work out at all. Y'all <laugh>?
Speaker 4:Most days I do. I don't know what Snoop's workout regime looks
Speaker 3:Like . I
Speaker 4:Don't even know which one is him.
Speaker 1:We can gauge through the Olympics.
Speaker 4:He's , I mean he seems very fit to me. <laugh> ? Yeah.
Speaker 1:Have you tried , sorry, this is random. Did you see him when he interviewed Michael Phelps and he tried to swim?
Speaker 4:Yes.
Speaker 1:<laugh> . Should , should we
Speaker 3:<laugh> ? Should we
Speaker 1:Call it a comeback? Call it whatever you want to. <laugh> . What? I am confused. No, don't. I could care less.
Speaker 4:Well this is funny 'cause it doesn't even have the like actual Yeah.
Speaker 1:Lyrics.
Speaker 4:Yeah , lyrics in it. But ,
Speaker 1:Okay , I'm gonna say no don't . <laugh> .
Speaker 3:What? I am confused. <laugh> ,
Speaker 4:I'll go with call . Whatever you want to .
Speaker 3:<laugh> , Starsky and Hutch. What,
Speaker 1:Which of these movies do
Speaker 4:You like Snoop ? Answer . I'm going with it
Speaker 1:Above the Rim, Starsky and Hutch. Into Deep Cool As Ice.
Speaker 4:See Manila Ice is definitely floating in here is a danger answer.
Speaker 1:I'm just say in too deep though. I don't even know. I don't think I've seen any of these to be honest. Don't judge .
Speaker 4:Okay. Above the Rim had a great soundtrack. <laugh> ,
Speaker 1:I feel like I remember that. Yeah , I remember that. Yeah,
Speaker 4:Because I think Death Row did the soundtrack. I , I think so . So like everyone on that's a death row artist. Oh
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 4:It's a good soundtrack.
Speaker 1:Which slang word would you use for money? <laugh> . Dead . Dead Presidents. Cheddar Bling or Skrilla
Speaker 3:Dead presidents. <laugh> . Yeah.
Speaker 4:I
Speaker 1:Like Cheddar. I , but I also kinda like bling because it makes you , they bling blame money. Anything .
Speaker 4:Sorry.
Speaker 1:Okay. <laugh> . What would make you angry? Someone disrespecting my mom. Your mom goes to college. Someone disrespecting my ability to party. What? Someone saying I had no game with the ladies
Speaker 10:That shows upon a
Speaker 1:Scene. Scene
Speaker 10:And gets the seven digits.
Speaker 1:Huh ? Someone's saying I couldn't dance
Speaker 4:Someone . I'm guessing this may be now I'm thinking maybe one of the Beastie Boys is an option in here for the disrespect . Ability to party <laugh> .
Speaker 1:Someone disrespecting my mom. Same. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Someone's say I had no game with the ladies . LL Cool. J answers are very like obvious in this one.
Speaker 1:<laugh> . Hannah, you're not telling us your answers. What is happening?
Speaker 3:I don't know which of these would make me , would make me angry. <laugh>
Speaker 4:Honestly . Hannah, you're a dancer. Someone saying you could dance would be extremely rude. <laugh> .
Speaker 3:All right , I guess I'll pick that, but I'm not sure I really care if someone makes that to be honest at this point. <laugh> ,
Speaker 1:Which rap crew would you roll with? Public Enemy, Cypress Hill. A Tribe called Quest or Beastie Boys? I think I would say a tribe called Quest for me.
Speaker 3:I'm just gonna pick that 'cause I like the name 'cause I don't know that. Don't know that group, but it's a good name.
Speaker 4:Insane In the Membrane. <laugh> . Um, ah .
Speaker 1:Y'all ready ? Trying the next
Speaker 4:One ? I don't know what I'm picking yet. Okay, I'm sorry. I'll go Cypress Hill to just be down .
Speaker 3:<laugh> .
Speaker 1:Which white rapper do you like the most? Everlast, Eminem. Mike D or Kid Rock.
Speaker 3:Well it's not gonna be Kid Rock
Speaker 4:<laugh> . I , no ,
Speaker 1:I'm gonna say M&m. It was Mike DI definitely had an Eminem phase in elementary school. My
Speaker 3:Project
Speaker 1:Was called like Toy Soldiers. Really? Yes.
Speaker 3:I'm gonna go with Eminem too.
Speaker 4:M and m is the better rapper . But I do have fondness for the Beastie Boys go with my D even though I like Ad Rock better. <laugh> . Ready for the next one ? Uhhuh ,
Speaker 3:What might you call? Oh sorry . You're supposed to read that. No ,
Speaker 1:It's fine. What might you call a woman? A shorty? A bizel .
Speaker 3:<laugh>. A bizel . <laugh> .
Speaker 1:A dime. A chick. I'm gonna say a shorty. <laugh> .
Speaker 4:I'm a dime here.
Speaker 3:Really?
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Aren't you trying to get Snoop?
Speaker 4:Yeah, but
Speaker 1:A bizzle .
Speaker 4:But that's what I would of those, that's what I'd be more likely to say about a woman.
Speaker 1:I'm torn between Like what ?
Speaker 3:What does a bissel come
Speaker 1:From? <laugh> . A .
Speaker 4:A fa , chisel.
Speaker 3:<laugh> . Okay , I'm just gonna go with that 'cause it's fun to say <laugh> .
Speaker 1:How good is Eminem? I don't know. I don't listen to him much the best. He's pretty good. He's weak? Yeah . Uh uh He's pretty good. He's pretty good .
Speaker 4:Yeah, I'll go with that too. I mean legit. I feel like he's probably top three.
Speaker 1:He's
Speaker 4:He is , but I don't like
Speaker 3:Him particularly <laugh> . There's no , I'll go with pretty good . He's good at what he does.
Speaker 1:There's only one where , right . Answer to this next question. What is your opinion? <laugh> ?
Speaker 3:What is your opinion of P Diddy ? When was this quiz written? Right .
Speaker 4:Obviously not this year. Yeah .
Speaker 3:What is
Speaker 1:Your opinion of P Diddy ? Totally awful. Ah , whatever he does what he does
Speaker 3:<laugh> , that's where he's , where he's now, oh dear.
Speaker 1:A good entertainer. The best. I
Speaker 4:Mean, seriously, no one was ever gonna pick the best for Puffy.
Speaker 1:So
Speaker 3:Like I said the best. But you know he ,
Speaker 1:He was onto something with making the band, but that wasn't really him. That was just more on him
Speaker 4:Discovering. Yeah , I guess I'm thinking of him as a rapper.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, absolutely not.
Speaker 4:I'm like as a producer, he did some amazing stuff as a rapper. He kind of sucked.
Speaker 1:Yeah. <laugh> , what do you think of long-term relationships? They're cool. I have nothing against them. I've tried them but they never work out. I am all about committed long-term relationships. I am not into those at all. I am not into those at all. <laugh>.
Speaker 3:Wow. Okay. Um,
Speaker 4:They're cool I guess. Yeah .
Speaker 1:I have nothing against them . Yeah, no . I like seeing my person <laugh> which us city , but
Speaker 4:It's long term . How ? Not long distance. Oh,
Speaker 3:I thought it said long distance. <laugh> . That's why I was like , wow . Okay baby . Maybe there was a breakup . I did know . I was like , is your boyfriend gonna listen ?
Speaker 1:I'm so glad we clarified this . 'cause he gonna go for like nine years . I'm all about committed long term
Speaker 3:Relationships.
Speaker 1:If you hear this, sorry babe. <laugh> , which us city would you visit? Compton, California. Long Beach, California, Queens , New York, Dallas, Texas. Um, long Beach . No. Compton. Maybe. I'm curious about Compton. I got
Speaker 4:My hair cut in Compton when I was working there. <laugh> ,
Speaker 3:<laugh> . I
Speaker 4:Didn't know where I was going. Right. So my friend and I were like driving and we were looking for a shop and I see a salon and I go in and I went in and the lady was like, oh honey, hold on. And she went in the back and she got out , which she called the baby haircuts <laugh>. And then she gave me like one of the best haircuts I'd ever
Speaker 3:Had. She was so careful
Speaker 4:And like, Aw , she did such a great job.
Speaker 3:Does that mean you're, you're picking Compton, California <laugh> ? No,
Speaker 4:Because I think I'm actually going to California and Long Beach is closer to where I'm going to be.
Speaker 3:<laugh> ,
Speaker 4:I'll say Long Beach
Speaker 3:Compton . Mm-hmm <affirmative> I don't know where any of these places in California are. <laugh> . There's so much California
Speaker 4:It's, it's la . Oh , so Compton is the hood.
Speaker 3:Yeah. <laugh>.
Speaker 1:How would you describe yourself? Intelligent, fun. Cool. Wild.
Speaker 3:Wild. <laugh> cool.
Speaker 1:I'm not that cool guys, but as a rapper I would be.
Speaker 3:Yes. Yeah . You know that's a great mindset. I'm gonna go with that . There you go . I'm super cool.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I feel like I would be cool as a rapper.
Speaker 3:<laugh> .
Speaker 4:Well that'd be fun too. I'll go with fun. <laugh> . I don't know which of those is Snoop. I think he's very cool but also he's fun 'cause he is bringing the brownies
Speaker 3:<laugh>.
Speaker 1:Do you write poetry? Yes. I love expressing myself that way. No, but I write good rhymes. No, I don't read it either. Poetry, who does that?
Speaker 4:Yes. But now I think I'm gonna get Tupac.
Speaker 3:<laugh> poetry. Who does that ? Do I write poetry?
Speaker 1:No poetry.
Speaker 3:Who does that? Does that answer poetry ? Who does that? Yeah .
Speaker 1:How hard are you? <laugh> ?
Speaker 3:Total . Total .
Speaker 1:Totally. No one messes with me. I'm pretty tough but my friends are even tougher. I'm a lover, not a fighter. Not tough at all. I'm a lover, not a
Speaker 3:Fighter. I'm a lover. Not a fighter as well.
Speaker 4:I'm going with totally. No one messes with me. There you
Speaker 3:Go. Same. And then
Speaker 4:I answered with our car knives . <laugh>.
Speaker 3:<laugh> . That's right. Can we press the button?
Speaker 1:Would you perform a different type of music if you thought you could make money at it? No way I rap because it is who I am. Not to make money. No, I just rap for fun. I don't know. Maybe as long as I could keep my pride. Sure. Why not?
Speaker 3:<laugh> ?
Speaker 4:As long as I can keep my pride . I'm imagining like what kind of music you're doing and not keeping your pride . Like you go from rap to like easy listening, <laugh> .
Speaker 3:Ok . No
Speaker 1:Way. I rap to make money because
Speaker 4:This weird <laugh>
Speaker 3:Only weird Al can be weird. Al <laugh> .
Speaker 1:So I guess I can go first. We can go get Yes ,
Speaker 3:He <laugh> . Who did you get Snoop. I got Snoop. I got Snoop too. <laugh> , I got
Speaker 1:L . Cool. J Really?
Speaker 3:I got Snoop .
Speaker 1:Okay, so you got L . Cool J . While a lot of people you know are into being all tough or partying all the time, you are way more interested in spending time with the ladies
Speaker 3:<laugh> . Sure .
Speaker 1:Sometimes you like to act tough but everyone knows that isn't really what you're all about. You've got more charm and charisma than you know what to do with East Coast is where it's at. One of y'all wanna read what Snoop Doggs and since y'all all got Snoop Dogg. Nick tell
Speaker 3:Me no . Got talk . That's crazy <laugh> .
Speaker 4:I might with the poetry answer but no such luck. Well a lot of people consider me Hannah and Maria bad boy . We just wanna chill out. We're all about hanging out with our boys. Being mellow and having fun. People should not underestimate us though we have a good flow to our style. And although we seem kind of goofy, we are not someone to be messed with.
Speaker 3:Each episode we ask whether a book passes a Dale test. A Bechdel test asks whether a work features two female characters who talk to each other about something that doesn't involve men or boys. So does it pass?
Speaker 4:Hmm .
Speaker 3:Kinda
Speaker 4:Yes , but barely. Yeah , because so much of it is centered on the shooting, which involves Khalil . Yeah. But she does talk about basketball, <laugh> and race , but not men basketball. She in the gym when like her Hailey Maya when they're playing against the boys. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . Yeah , they do. I think that counts. And then the talk about
Speaker 3:The racist. Comments. Comments. Yeah .
Speaker 4:Though that all being said, while it's not maybe the strongest based on this measure, I think that the book has good feminist vibes to it.
Speaker 3:I mean I think it's a good example of how passing the bile test by a margin or not it , it's a good litmus test, but it's not, it doesn't necessarily, it's not the be all end list if the book is worth reading.
Speaker 4:Yeah. That's super valid.
Speaker 2:Well that's it for this episode of these books. Made me join us next time when we discuss a book in which main characters do a jig after sugaring off. If you know which book we're tackling next, follow us on Instagram. We're at these books made me and drop our comment on our guest , our next repost .