These Books Made Me
These Books Made Me
Akata Witch
Who doesn't love a book steeped in myth, legend, and local culture? Well, we certainly love them and are leaning into our fangirling over Akata Witch by Nnedi Okorafor. Sunny is tearing up the football pitch at the Zuma games, getting in touch with her spirit face, and finding her place in her coven. We do have some questions though. For example, can Darlene make it through the author bio without laughing about Dr. Okorafor's cats? Is Anatov the best teacher we've encountered in a book we've covered for the pod even if he frequently almost gets his students killed? Are all of the spirit faces in Sugar Cream's office waiting for a new leopard person to be born or is it more like a Hall of Fame of great spirit faces? If we get really brave we may just ask the author on twitter. We're diving deep into bodily humors and archetypes, depictions of multilingual communities, and summoning masquerades.
These Books Made Me is a podcast about the literary heroines who shaped us and is a product of the Prince George's County Memorial Library System podcast network. Stay in touch with us via Twitter @PGCMLS with #TheseBooksMadeMe or by email at TheseBooksMadeMe@pgcmls.info. For recommended readalikes and deep dives into topics related to each episode, visit our blog at https://pgcmls.medium.com/.
Special acknowledgement of music by Alexander Nakarada in this episode.
Hi, I am Heather.
Darlene:I'm Darlene.
Hannah:I'm Hannah.
Hawa:I'm Hawa.
Heather:And this is our podcast These Books Made Me. Today we're going to be talking about Akata Witch by Nnedi Okorafor. Friendly warning as always, this podcast contains spoilers. If you don't yet know who can transform into a snake, proceed with caution.
Hannah:Start off with our usual question. Was this everyone's first time reading? If not, how did this reread compare to your memories of reading it when you were younger?
Darlene:I wasn't that much younger <laugh>.
Heather:It was, it was Tuesday.
Darlene:Yeah. But yeah, it was like maybe three or four years ago when I just decided that I wanted to , um, better my, like, what is it called when you give people suggestions? Why am I blanking?
Heather:You need us to cue you. < laugh > .
Multiple voices:Advisory . Advisory . Oh my God. I kept , I , it's been a week. Um, but yes , it's , it's ,
Speaker 1:Sorry, <laugh> ,
Speaker 2:I picked this up four years ago 'cause I wanted to better my reader's advisory, especially when it came to like tweens and teens. And I really like, what is it called? Something Bone and Children's. So
Speaker 1:Blood and
Speaker 2:Bone. Yeah . Yeah. Children of Blood and Bone. So I had read that and I really liked it. And this was often cited as like a good read alike Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . So I picked it up and I really enjoyed it. I will say, I think the freshness of it, the first time around, I just remember like really liking it this time around. I wasn't like more critical or anything, but I noticed that it kind of suffers from first book in a series issue where Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> , it's so much, so much exposition. And that's the most interesting part of it because you're so invested in the world building that when the big bad happens at the very end, I think it kind of suffers from that like Marvel third act issue where um, you have a lot of like exposition and then all of a sudden all of the action happens in the final third and then it just kind of feels , um, it makes you feel like wanting more. And so I kind of felt that , um, with the Big bad in this book. And we never said we were not spoiler free . So basically there's like a Satan esque character at the end and she just calls it back and then it just goes back not much more as explained. And I do think that that's gonna be relevant in future books. So I'm not like faulting the author necessarily and it doesn't make me want to read the next books. But that is something I noticed on Reread.
Speaker 3:I mean, like you, technically I was younger when I read it <laugh> , but I was, I , I don't remember exactly when it was probably a few years ago, like you Darlene. Um, and yeah, I really enjoyed it . I love books that are based on mythology and folklore and um, I've never read anything that was based on anything from the African continent. So it was really, like you said, it felt really fresh to read something based on like Nigerian , uh, culture that a lot of the book is setting up to your kind of like sunny dipping into the world. And it's fascinating. But part of the book reason the book does feel so plotty is and complicated is because of that. But I really enjoyed reading it the first time. Enjoyed reading it the second time.
Speaker 4:So as always, I'm always the one who's like, this is their first time reading it <laugh> . But you know, this was actually on my TBR when they said we were reading this. I was like, oh, bet I already have that on my bookshelf. I enjoyed it. Um, I feel like I need to go straight into the second book. So kind of like what Darlene was talking about, even though this was my first read, I definitely noticed that , um, I honestly thought that this was gonna go over my head a little bit. So , um, you know, it was actually wasn't too, too scary. 'cause this is not a genre that I typically read. Um, but I was excited to read this one because I'm West African. I'm not Nigerian, but I am West African. So it's kind of cool to be able to like read about like other West African folklore stories type, you know?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Not my first time reading it either. Um, I read it when it first came out and I was like , Darlene, I had seen it as a potential reader alike to a books that I really loved. Um, so when it first came out, someone had mentioned that it was similar or had some qualities that reminded them of the Ear, the Eye and the Arm by Nancy Farmer, which is also a sci-fi fantasy that's set in Africa. And I love that book so much. And so I was like, this is great because I was looking for something that was , uh, a good readout I could do with my daughters at the time. And so I was looking for that. And then I read it and I felt like it was probably a little bit, maybe too scary for them at the age that they were at. I loved how she incorporated, you know, culture and mythology with some of the tropes that are pretty, you know, foundational to this type of coming of age, exploring your magic type of book. And then that just got me started on like the whole net Cora War, <laugh> , <laugh>, Hora . I'm a huge fan of hers. I've read all the books in this series and then I've read some of her adult books as well. I think she's a beautiful writer and I love Sonny . She's so great <laugh> . And then, like, I was in a store last week when I was rereading this book and the radio or whatever that plays at the store, they were playing that Sunny came home, that Sean Colvin song. And I was just like, oh, it's like
Speaker 4:<laugh> , its Destiny
Speaker 1:Reading is match right now . It did , it felt like it was speaking directly to me. Oh . And so I was just really excited about that. And um, I'm almost done with a caught a warrior again on a reread now. 'cause yeah, that ending just makes you wanna keep going 'cause you Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> you get really attached to these characters and their arcs and you wanna know what's gonna happen with them.
Speaker 3:Okay. I'm glad you mentioned that. You're the eye in the arm. 'cause I had forgotten I read that as a kid. And so I have to take back part of my previous statement. 'cause I, I read that a long time ago and I've forgotten until you said the title and it's coming back to me now. So thank
Speaker 1:You for Yeah. And it does have some similarities to it . Yeah . I can see what somebody meant by that though. I think that there are books that stand very much on their own. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> and feel very original. Like even if there's some shades of resemblance there.
Speaker 4:I know y'all can't tell because this is a podcast, but Heather was like smiling the entire time she was talking about this book. <laugh> . You can tell. I don't think, I don't , I don't remember the last time she fangirled over something as much.
Speaker 1:It was Blue Eye <laugh> .
Speaker 5:Yeah .
Speaker 4:All right . So I'm gonna get into a little bit of a plot summary. Um, forgive me in advance if I mispronounce anything, but I'm gonna try not to. Okay. Sonny NSU was born in New York to a Nigerian family, eventually moving back to Nigeria as a 9-year-old. Sonny's birthplace and accent are only two of the reasons she sticks out. She's also albino. She plays soccer better than any boy in her neighborhood, but can only play at night. She also witnesses the end of the world in the flame of a candle school. And friendships are challenging for Sunny . She's too good at school and her former friends are quick to turn on her when peer pressure kicks in. Luckily Sunny finds a pair of kindred spirits in Orlu , a school classmate and his best friend, the mysterious and unschooled chichi . They add a fourth to their number when they meet Sasha. A boy from Chicago sent to Nigeria by his family. After trouble with police. This unlikely group of friends have something else in common. They're all leopard people. The four friends are assigned to a powerful American leopard person and scholar named Anav , who now lives in Leopard Knox . A magically shrouded island that is a thriving leopard person. Metropolis Sunny begins to learn more about herself as a free agent, leopard person, a child with magical powers and a spear face born to non-ag parents. The foursome learn how to use juju and their innate magical abilities. They also learn to turn their flaws into strengths and abilities. Sonny's albinism is part of her ability to walk between the wilderness or spirit world and earth and to glide in corporally when she's in touch with her spirit face Unwin you Sunny learns to glide through keyholes to sneak out of her house, to continue her twice weekly . Studies with Anna Toff and her friends Anna , to sends the kids on a series of quests or tasks that both help connect the students to power from mentors, but also earn them chittem as they gain new knowledge and skills. Chitto is the currency of the leopard person world and falls from the sky in the form of rods of precious metals. The four are also required to learn from books. Sunny acquires a handbook of sorts for free agent leopard people, but also selects or is selected by a book about iny . A magical symbolic language written by sugar cream , the head librarian and an elder that ov wants to mentor Sonny in spite of the excitement of finding out who she is and finding true acceptance with her friends. Not all is well in the world. A serial killer named Black Hat Koto has been terrorizing the community, kidnapping, killing, and mutilating small children. Sunny has trouble at home as her father resents her and is constantly angry with her. Sunny has to lie constantly to her family to continue her magical education because by Pac and by force of punishment, a leopard person can never reveal their true nature to a lamb or non-Ag person. Sunny learns that her grandmother was a powerful leopard person warrior who was murdered by her student, black hat or to a coto . And there's that issue of watching the world end in the candle flame. The four students become extremely close as they adventure together, learn together, and challenge each other. They eventually learn that the elders and scholars believe that the four are destined to be an oja coven and are tasked with fighting the black hat. They learned that black hat Koto has been murdering the children ritualistically to call forth a powerful malevolence female spirit at Tu . When black hat kidnaps two more children, the covenant is sent to fight him. Each of the four uses their deepest abilities to successfully save the children. Fight black hat who slit his own throat to call forth asu , and ultimately sent ASU back out of the physical world. Sunny returns home. And her mother reveals a box from her grandmother set aside for her containing a letter from her grandmother, the powerful nim warrior Zaina . Sonny learns that Mina also walked between the spirit and physical world and is promised in the letter there . There is more history in her than she can yet know. Sonny feels . She finally understands who she is and the book ends as Sonny looks forward to continuing to walk into worlds.
Speaker 2:The author's full name is Edema Aour . And from a May, 2024 tweet, she said that my full name is Edema. It means mother is good and equal. Nidi means mother is mothers are celebrated anytime someone calls my name, which it's a really beautiful name, <laugh> . All right . So Netty Aour was born in Cincinnati, Ohio on April 8th, 1974. Two IPO Nigerian parents who would take her on many trips to Nigeria while she was growing up. When she was six, her family moved to suburban Chicago in South Holland, Illinois. In an interview, aura Four describes experiencing overt racism while growing up as part of one of the only black families in the neighborhood. She also attributes her exploration of the wild and empty suburban spaces in that area with cultivating her love of flora and vna . She dreamed of being an entomologist and also excelled in sports, tennis and trek. However, when a Coor was entering college, that scoliosis that she had been diagnosed with at 13 became severe enough that she underwent surgery. She experienced a rare surgical complication and became temporarily paralyzed from the waist down. A core would regain the ability to walk in a slow grueling recovery. But due to nerve damage, was not able to resume competitive sports. It was during this time that she began writing stories which led to publication in magazines and anthologies. A quovo would go on to earn a bachelor's degree in rhetoric from University of Illinois in 1996. A master's degree in journalism from Michigan State University in 1999. A master's degree in English from University of Illinois in 2002. And a PhD in English from the University of Illinois. In 2007, a reporter's first novel was called Zara, the Wind Seeker published in 2005, which featured a 13-year-old protagonist in a science fiction fantasy world with special. After writing several books for children and young adults, she turned to adult fiction with who Feared Death. Published in 2010, ADA Witch , the first in the Inci Script series was released in 2011 to much critical acclaim. She won Hugo Nebula, world Fantasy Locus and Lone Star Awards. Netty Corfo lives in Phoenix, Arizona with her family and works as a professor at Arizona State in the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences. Humanities division. She has a daughter and two cats with their own Twitter accounts. Pumper, nickel Pickle, Perry Winkle, oo a Coor and Neptune, well, I can't say on Ona . Dke a Coor the Cat.
Speaker 1:Um , I guess just to kick off the discussion, I think it's really clear that the author brings a lot of her own experiences into this book in the form of the characters. And I think it's interesting because we've often seen books where the main character is clearly like an avatar for the author. But in this, I think she has woven pieces of herself into all of the main characters. You know, you can see with her scoliosis that comes up with sugar cream , uh, with her like affinity for sports. You see that And Sunny, sunny . Yeah. Um, with her Love for Animals. You see that with Olu and like, I think her impulsivity, which if you follow her on Twitter, she kind of references that sometimes . You could see that in Chichi a little bit. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . And then her upbringing in Chicago, I think is echoed with some of Sasha's experiences. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . I think that's really cool that like all of these characters are little pieces of herself. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And notice all the, the bugs and insects woven throughout the book. Um, so you see her sort of her entomological , uh, you know, love in there .
Speaker 2:Yeah. I felt like this was one of those books where , um, obviously there's a main central character, but I think that she did a really good job of flushing all of the characters out in such a way that you care about each and every one of them. And you almost forget that Sonny is the protagonist. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . Um, which I think is really different from others that have kind of this like sort of ensemble or like a core friend group. 'cause there's always like one specific person and like, I feel like that series doesn't let you forget that they're the main character. Um, but I think at some points I would forget that Sunny was the main character because I was like so invested in all the characters . Yeah .
Speaker 1:She's
Speaker 3:Not the chosen one to an embarrassing , um, everyone fades into the background degree.
Speaker 1:Right? Yeah. All of them are equally important Yeah. To their coven , you know? Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> it is like without any one of them Mm-Hmm . They wouldn't have succeeded because it took all of their abilities to be able to, to fight Black hat, but then also to be able to get rid of a qua Sue at least temporarily at the end of the book.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And they could have had her do everything really. Because when Gigi does the last juju that , um, came to her mother in a dream from Sunny's grandmother. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . I was like, that was such an interesting thing to do because it could have just come to sunny . Mm . But it's like Sunny's not skilled enough to do a complicated juju like that. Yeah . So it makes sense that it wouldn't come to her in a dream. Um, so I was pretty ha like I kind of wanted that connection between her and her grandmother, but then I was happy that it didn't happen that way because it really wouldn't make sense for the plot of the book because Sonny is so new to magic
Speaker 1:And you get the connection at the end when she gets the box and the letter . Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . So I think like she tied that up well so that it wasn't like, oh, well Chichi knows more about Sonny's grandmother than Sonny does, though . I guess that is sort of a theme of the book is like everyone knows more about Sonny's family than Sonny does because , you know, she's coming into it as a free agent and she hasn't had any kind of background. And, you know, her mom knew that something was different about her grandmother, but she , well she didn't know what, she didn't know what it was. And like even her mom talks about knowing that there was a sameness in the difference, like that she and and her grandmother were the same because she found the chittum after Sonny Glide through the keyhole the first time and she left it on the floor. 'cause she didn't know how to carry it with her at the time. And so I think that that's an interesting piece too, where the mom is like, I don't know what you both are, but you're special. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> I believe in you. And I understand that. And the grandmother even a acknowledges that in the letter like Yeah . Proactively that like Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> , you know , if your mom's giving this to you, it's because she believes in me and she believes in you and she knows that this is for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Which is very beautiful because I think , um, Sonny does explain early on that her mom is a really devout Catholic. And a lot of, I guess like her reservations at the beginning, like her reservations around magic were, I think from having an upbringing of being in a devout Catholic family. Um, so for her mother to still keep the box and believe in her grandmother and like not succumb to sort of the reputation that her grandmother got, you know, Sonny's mother's mother , um, I think was really nice to see in the end as well, because what kind of relationship is gonna have with her mother because it , you don't really know like how much love and respect is there because Sunny has always felt like an outsider in her own family. Um, so yeah, I thought it was tied up really nicely. I
Speaker 4:Agree. Because there were definitely some points where I was just like, oh, like is this gonna be a problem for her mother? Like, and then her mother like was always really hesitant when it, when it came up, when it came to her bringing up her grandmother. But it turns out that it was just more from like a place of like, I guess almost like protecting her in a way. But like, I thought it was like the mother rejecting the grandmother. Mm-Hmm . But I think it was more so of like, okay. Protecting her until she felt like the time was right to share that with her. So I really liked that. Especially because like, we already see that , um, her father does not like her, wanted her to be a girl, wanted her to be a boy. Um, probably maybe has some feelings about her because of, you know , her albinism. But also just like he, he says that he's seeing things in her that she's seeing in that that , that the mom said she saw on the grandma. And also makes me wonder like if the mom maybe regrets sharing even that little bit about the mom, about her mother with her husband. But
Speaker 1:I don't know if he knew that because she shared it. I mean, it sounds like everyone knew the grandmother.
Speaker 2:Yeah . It sounded like it was a reputation.
Speaker 1:'cause she had such a, like non-traditional because
Speaker 4:The way he
Speaker 1:Said it life, like, not marrying but still having children. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. He said something like, you
Speaker 4:Told me, you told me
Speaker 2:That
Speaker 4:That's around the age that she started sneaking out or something. And then that's when she came home pregnant. So I
Speaker 2:Don't know . Hmm . Interesting. But yeah. Um, I also thought it was really interesting, again, the way that she ties everything in the end that her grandmother having the same ability but on the opposite spectrum, where it was like she was so dark skin that she was invisible, which mm-Hmm . <affirmative> , which is another like trope that comes up a lot in fiction. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . Um, yeah, I thought that that was really interesting too because I, I kept wondering, I was like, okay, the albinism makes sense to me. Like why that, you know, like half in the spirit world kind of thing. I understood where they were coming from with that. Um, probably also 'cause the book does a good job of like constantly explaining it to you. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . Um, so I , I was always wondering like how the grandmother had a really similar ability . Um, so I thought that that was a really good tie at the end as well.
Speaker 4:I was, because I hadn't even read the description, I was really curious of as to how much , um, her albinism was gonna play a part in the, in the book. Like, I didn't know if it was gonna be like, she came across like a random secret society of other people with albinism or something like that. And I actually really liked the way it was touched on in the book. I felt like it was real realistic in terms of like how society treated her, but it also didn't feel like it was like weaponized, I guess in a way. I don't know if I'm explaining what I'm trying to say. Right. But I felt like, like I didn't know if it was gonna be one of those books I was gonna read and be like, oh, ew . But I like it. It works
Speaker 1:Well. If you like secret societies <laugh> and her albinism being a thing, wait for book two
Speaker 4:<laugh> .
Speaker 1:It's certainly a trope to do the, like, well your weakness is actually your greatest strength thing. But I do think that they handle that in this book in a fresher way than it doesn't feel particularly cliche when you're reading it, even though that is a pretty like well established trope, I think. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . And she does, she does have like anato explain that to, to people and to the kids, which I think could easily go pedantic. But it never really does it , it really feels like the way that a mentor would try to explain that to a young person who's struggling with it. If this wasn't this kind of cross that you bear, you wouldn't have this ability. So like, yes, this is hard for you, but it's also a thing that you can use and that it can become a source of power for you. Um, and that, you know, your differences are what make you special. It's not your sameness with everybody else . You know, it's four of them. And I think often when we get like a group of main characters like that, everyone plays like a kind of cliche role. You know, you have the, the scholarly person, you have the brave person, you have, you know, it's the comic person. But I think it's interesting that she makes Chichi and Sasha very similar and like, they keep emphasizing like, no , their strengths are the same. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . Like , they have the same weakness and the same strength. They're super impulsive, but it lets them do all of this like high level juju because they're not afraid of anything. They'll like take chances on stuff. Um, and I think that that's a, it's a brave choice to make them the same but also separate enough that they feel like individuals. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . Mm-Hmm .
Speaker 3:<affirmative> . Well this might be interesting. I'm looking at the TV tropes page for this and listed under the tropes for this book is Forged Temperament Ensemble as in like, you know ,
Speaker 1:The Golden Girls . Thank you for being friends . I'm trying , sorry . Ric
Speaker 3:Matic sanguine.
Speaker 1:So they're saying that Chichi is sanguine. She's
Speaker 3:Optimistic. Cheerful. I mean, we could do gal girls I suppose that could be fun. She's Tri Chichi
Speaker 1:Is clearly, yeah .
Speaker 3:Um , impulsive. Um, Sasha's ric , ambitious, charismatic wants to take charge. Or Lewis melancholic, Cardus analytical and hardworking moral compass voice of reason. Sunny is phlegmatic. She's the peacemaker of the group, but insecure because she's new. I don't know people, people write this in so it's kind of a crowdsource. So, you know, I don't know . Taking us back to , uh, the four humors theory if we wanna do that <laugh> . Yeah.
Speaker 2:No , it's trying to reimagine them as the golden girl
Speaker 1:<laugh> . We have malos and estrogen <laugh> . It works. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think it could
Speaker 1:Quiz . Which golden girl are you <laugh>? Which golden girl is sunny .
Speaker 2:I agree that, I thought that it handled the , like your strength, your weaknesses , also your strength trope. They judge her for being a free agent, which is like an imperfection. So it's kind of like, why does that matter to you ? Like the way that that book was written <laugh> , I was like, I don't even know that I could get through it. So like when she's first initiated, she gets a book. It's like an introduction for specifically for free agents because they don't have any like history. Which again, I also thought that was weird because I was like, are you telling me there's no history book? I know that most people are born into it and your family just kind of tells you kind of the history, but wouldn't there still be a book on the history that she could have read? But anyway, she bought introduction, I think to leopard people and it was like specifically for free agents. And in it, the author is the most condescending person ever.
Speaker 1:<laugh> Do I detect a hint of condescension? I'm sorry, was I being too subtle?
Speaker 2:Just basically being like, I mean these are the things you're not open to and you should be grateful for it, but at the same time, like, try not to strive for more because like, this is the pinnacle of everything you're gonna be like, just be happy that you even know that there's a world outside of like lambs or regular people. Um,
Speaker 1:But yeah , she basically said , yeah, maybe just don't <laugh> maybe . Yeah . Maybe
Speaker 2:Just don't , um,
Speaker 1:Lower
Speaker 3:Your expectations.
Speaker 2:<laugh> . Yeah. So it was just really interesting that that hypocrisy still exists there. Like even if they are in sense saying like, oh yeah, the way that like the west or the rest of the world really views imperfections as something negative and strives for perfection. Like we as leopard people don't. But at the same time it's like there's a lot of prejudice within their communities as well. And it's highlighted by Sunny again, even in that world because she's a free agent, she didn't have anyone that really taught her , um, about her kind of like spiritual line.
Speaker 3:What I thought was interesting about the albinism to go back to that is I , if I looked up albinism, like as a medical condition, also sort of its presence around the world and some of the like prejudices and myths about it. And apparently a lot of people , it's some of the sources that says, that said , as much as most people with albinism experience vision problems, I don't think Sunny has described as having any problems with her vision. Uh ,
Speaker 2:So in the next book . Yeah. Yeah, because I read ,
Speaker 3:I must have
Speaker 2:Missed that. No. And I read in a , so it gives you, or the ebook that I read gives you like , um, a bit of like the next book. It kind of lets you read a preview and she talks about it. She said it's never been as bad. It comes up in the , it comes up in , comes up in second book . Yeah . Okay . So , um, she's wearing glasses and she's not really like, happy about having to wear glasses. Okay. But she said that her vision's never been great. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . But it was like passable I guess. Mm-Hmm . But then finally she went to an eye doctor and they were like, oh yeah, I think it's time for glasses. Okay.
Speaker 1:Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . Yeah. And she talks about how, you know now that for context, once she , uh, becomes in touch with an Yan w and her spirit face, her ability to go out in the sun is like greatly improved. 'cause before she couldn't do anything, the sun would harm her. Um, and once she's in touch with her spirit face, she's able to be in the sun. But her eyes never adjust to it. And so in the next book they do talk about like, it's painful for her eyes to be in the sun even though she's okay. Yeah . And I do feel like they maybe mentioned that once, like in the soccer passage when they're at the, at the games, at the Zuma games that like, it's bright for her. Something like that. But her eyes do, her vision does become an issue.
Speaker 3:I mean, if you have less melon in your eyes, you have less natural protection against the sun. Right ? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> I think in general
Speaker 1:That makes sense . She gets those glasses that are the like automatic. Yeah . They , what do you transitions call the transitions
Speaker 2:Glasses
Speaker 6:For those with transitions lenses. The future
Speaker 2:Is already because
Speaker 1:She doesn't like <laugh> .
Speaker 2:Yeah. I felt bad for her . I was like, oh , I wanna keep reading <laugh> .
Speaker 3:I mean there's, but there's a lot of like deep seated prejudice , uh, kind of around the world it sounds like. So
Speaker 1:Yeah. To riff on that a little bit more, you know, sunny gets othered. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> by her classmates especially, but it's her former friends, which I'm curious about that. Yeah . Sorry. No, that girl didn't seem like she would ever been a friend to her . Like she just seemed really mean. Ja jaka or something was her name. But yeah, so she gets othered at school. She gets othered by her family. 'cause her dad is very much like, did not want a girl did not want an albino girl, did not want a magical albino girl. And like really has very like, low hopes for her and is very angry at her. But I think, like Darlene said, we see othering throughout the book. Like it's not just Sonny . She gets othered for being a free agent leopard person. So within the leopard person world , like sure they're a little bit more accepting of the physical difference, but they're not so much of the free agent thing. But then you see it with other characters too. You know, like Sasha's coming primarily because he's gotten into some criminal trouble related to the othering that was happening to him at home as a black young man in Chicago. You know. Um, and so I think it's really interesting how she shows just a variety of the ways that we put people in boxes. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and that we distance ourself from people. Um, 'cause it , it really, it happens to pretty much all of the characters on some level. There is something that they are somewhat ostracized for or like a box that they're put in because of, of some quality that they have. 'cause even Chichi is kind of like everyone just asks like she's a loose cannon and she's a nim woman, which sort of is an othering kind of thing as well. Like they can't marry, they, you know , they live this, I don't know, like more austere lifestyle because they sort of forego material things. Almost everyone we encounter gives some telling of a moment where they were othered. 'cause like even Anto , he relates to the racism in the US 'cause he was also American , um, sugar cream . I can't remember if it was in this book or in the next one. But you know, she talks about the othering that happened to her because of all the scoliosis, but also because she was raised by baboons. You
Speaker 7:Think you just fell out of a coconut tree?
Speaker 1:<laugh> as a child?
Speaker 4:Yeah. Yeah. She did kind of mention that.
Speaker 2:Yeah . Yeah, she did. Oh right. I don't So the scoliosis was not because of the snake thing. That's true. She was born that way . Or I don't know
Speaker 1:If Sheed it . Yeah , she has born that way , but it's what gives her that ability to shift. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> she says. Um, so she's othered for that. And then, you know, we kind of see like with her grandmother, the whole town thought that like zuno was, you know, really weird. These guys
Speaker 8:Are just weird. That's who they
Speaker 1:Are . <laugh> because she had a whole life with this man, but refused to marry him and was different than other people. She was blacker than some of the other people. But that ends up being part of her ability to glide. It's a really interesting through line in the book where everyone experiences it on some level. That's an important thing to tell kids. Yeah . You know? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> like from an empathy perspective. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . Um, it's giving them the tools to understand the , like, I feel this way when this happens to me, this thing that's happening to somebody else is kind of similar. So I can imagine what that would feel like.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I love how it's like the bigger things and the smaller things as well. 'cause it could be albinism, right? But then it could also be like, there's a passage that was like very, very short . People tend to make plants grow and those with bad skin usually know and understand the weather. Which I was kind of curious how <laugh> , how does that work out? Yeah . That was related because everything is kind of like, their ability is somehow related to the sort of like magical thing that they can kind of just naturally do without juju. I'm curious about that one. But yeah, it was even like small things like that. It was like all these like small imperfections also kind of help in your ability and your strengths.
Speaker 1:I think that kind of ties into the world building in this book. And I wanna talk about that. I think certainly there are some kind of standard tropes for, for fantasy in this book. But what makes the book really sing, I think is the attention she gives to the details of the world building and how she ties it in with culture and mythology from, from Nigeria and West Africa more generally. Because like at the games, there's people from everywhere. They all come from miles around to come to the games. Yeah .
Speaker 4:I really like how that she incorporated people from like, all over the diaspora. Like not even just people in like from Africa or West Africa. Like, I like how she had like Sasha and Anav . Like I actually was not expecting there to be characters who were like Black American. Which is also something that I was curious about because like with the title, like the word akata , like is a derogatory word used towards like black American people. Um, so I was really interested to see how that was like incorporated into the book. So I'm very , uh, very pleased. I had no expectations going into this book, but I know Heather loved it. So I guess that kind of gave me a little bit of expectations. But yeah.
Speaker 1:<laugh> . Yeah. I thought it was cool. Like they, she really deals with all of the language issues a lot too . Because I think sometimes that's one of the things that like gets away from us in fantasy and sci-fi, where they try to do sort of global writing or like multiple planet writing. It's stuff like the universal translator <laugh> , like in Star Trek for example, it's like
Speaker 9:Darma Angela at <inaudible> . That
Speaker 2:Wouldn't work.
Speaker 1:<laugh> . It's really just a plot device so that you don't have to deal with like, nobody speaks the same language. And then like, sometimes it doesn't work 'cause you want an episode where they don't speak the same language. Right. But she's very like attentive to language in this book. So , you know , from Jump , we have Sasha's learning Ebo . And so they're trying to do things so that he's forced to use Ebo and come along with them. But then at other times they'll tell people, no, you need to speak in English because it's, it's the lingua franca for this group of people. And so like at the Zuma games, you're seeing like, okay, how do we play soccer when like, these guys over here speak French and these guys speak this dialect and this person only speaks this. And so they're having to like negotiate that. Um ,
Speaker 4:And I love how she's like, yeah, these guys all speak French, but I don't think they know each other. They must all be from different countries 'cause they don't look like they're interacting <laugh> . Yeah .
Speaker 3:It's very nuanced and you can, I mean, you can, I think probably the fact that sounds like the author was taken to Nigeria multiple times growing up. She, she probably experienced, experienced , experienced multiple situations where she observed people interacting in Yeah . Multiple languages and making it work
Speaker 1:Well. And I like that there's also chichi and her mom Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> Phi . And so, I mean, she speaks IBO as well, it seems like. But I think it's cool that there are like special jujus that the words have to be in that language. Mm-Hmm . To do. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . And then I, I like that it gives like all of these different languages and cultures sort of their own like flavor and power and, you know, it doesn't make any one ethnic group there like better at Yeah . Because we do have the othering with the like free agent thing. Right. But there is like almost utopian, like, okay, well we're all leopard people and we're all from different countries and we're gonna make this work and we're gonna get along and learn together. And well ,
Speaker 3:Sometimes you gotta do a spell in Latin <laugh> <laugh> . It's like, you know that trope. Yeah . And you know, different types of , uh, fantasy <laugh> . Yeah.
Speaker 2:The epic thing was really interesting because , uh, when Chi , I think , um, the masquerade that Chichi called and then it, it told her something at the end and like no one else understood because it spoken ethic <laugh> . Um, I thought that was like, yeah , I don't know. Like I , I thought that was like a nice touch because it was like, yeah. Who would understand? But , uh, um, but chichi , because she was the one that called it. Um, and so it was giving her a message. And then I thought again, a nice touch was the tension toward the end when there was like a round table of like the elders. And , um, I think they were asked to speak English and then they were, there was like tensions around that. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . And , um, and you know, like the way that they think that Sasha and , um, and Sonny are just like, well they think more so Sasha kind of embodies that like sort of impulsiveness and like , um, like not really thinking about others' perspective that people have of Americans. So again, she like really like was in touch with what she was trying to like get from that , those scenes. I don't know. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . But I , I think she like did it expertly. Like I feel like you got the sense of that tension,
Speaker 3:Cultural rich points. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> everywhere. Um, and then I keep flashing back to like the beginning when she's, you know, sort of almost the , like the establishing character moments when she's in class and her teachers are giving her back an essay. And I mean, that awful teacher who
Speaker 1:That teacher's so
Speaker 3:Bad, it was like
Speaker 1:Another bad teacher,
Speaker 3:Terrible teacher of horrible
Speaker 1:Teachers in children's books
Speaker 4:Who's like random white lady in the beginning who just like beats them . And
Speaker 1:She was awful
Speaker 3:Phrases . So for being essentially a good writer and fluent in English and then what ? And then like terror the other students , she like
Speaker 1:Read the one
Speaker 3:Kids not being fluent in English and like making
Speaker 1:Oh man.
Speaker 3:Making it ensuring that that so is gonna get jumped after school. Yeah . I'm like , what
Speaker 1:Is she doing? Like you whip the other kids. Like what
Speaker 3:<laugh> like what are you doing?
Speaker 1:That's not a reward for doing a good essay. That's a punishment.
Speaker 4:It's very much damned if you do, damned if you don't. 'cause the kids were like, well why did you let her beat us? Uh , you would've been softer
Speaker 3:<laugh> if she had beat them, they would've beat her up anyway. Like, she couldn't have done anything right there.
Speaker 1:No, I, yeah, that teacher was terrible. Terrible.
Speaker 3:Like everything, the teacher did everything wrong there.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I, I do think with the language too, it's interesting. Um, we learn a little bit, not a lot , um, and it becomes very important as we go. But the IV language, which is, it's basically a magical language, right? But not all leopard people can learn it or acquire it or read it. It has to like speak to you basically. Um, and I think that that's a really interesting take on things because instead of it being a scholarly art, 'cause we get, you know, this university in the library and you have this whole like, segment of magical scholars in the community, but it's one of those either you're born with this or you're not and it's a special type of ability as well. I think it's interesting. I think it's just her and sugar cream of the people that we see in this book that, that have that ability to learn in Sidi . But yeah, I think that that's kind of an interesting twist on thing because we often see the like, oh, there's like some kind of runic language or something. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> that's like a language of scholars. Like we treat it almost like , um, you know, like maybe the Quran like very formal. Yeah. Like that sort of thing where like, well you just have to study it really hard. Or like the Talmud, like you just really have to study your Hebrew hard Right . To learn how to like do this very challenging reading and this doesn't have that weight to it. And I like that it's, I don't know, it feels a little bit more egalitarian to be like, you know, it could be anybody. The language picks who it's gonna talk to and so Yeah.
Speaker 3:Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . But it does have the ethos of rewarding hard work. Yes . Like you can reach out and acquire this, which reminded me a little bit of, has anyone ever read any of the Love Grossman magicians , uh, books?
Speaker 1:Yes. I do not remember very well though, but I remember liking,
Speaker 3:Yeah. I don't remember a lot of the details, but one thing I do remember is , um, they, I thought that Grossman portrayed really well. Um, and it's like a formal school, so this is, it's a different setting. But I thought he sh I, what I really liked is his portrayal of achieving magic is that you have to work hard to practice and like, it just takes, it takes time and it takes hard work and just, yeah . He shows sort of the rigorous practice, which I think even though there's not the sense of elitism and like knowledge behind in an ivory tower in this which you said, which you , uh, uh, pointed out, which I think is nice. But there's still that sense of, well, if you work hard , um, guys , you have to have, you have to be a love person. So you have to have some in innate gifts, but you can achieve it. Um, but it, it's gonna take time and work. And you see that 'cause like Sunny's gifted, but she's farther behind than the others because she just found out that she's a leopard person. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Again, it's kind of that trope of leveling up. Yeah. But I like, I think it's fresh how they do it. I love that it rains the chittum when you've like
Speaker 5:Unlocked a new skill or you
Speaker 2:One that reminded me of like , you
Speaker 5:Gave the most random stuff , Mario . That's
Speaker 2:Exactly what me of
Speaker 3:Positive feedback in our life
Speaker 5:Every time I did this . You good ?
Speaker 2:Every time I read it, I like heard the Mario coins.
Speaker 5:Me too . I thought of like Sonic Rings. <laugh> . Yeah . Sonic
Speaker 2:Rings. That's a good one.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I, I really like that idea. Um, with the Chittem and especially because it, oh , it rewards all different kinds of learning. Like I think Anna Todd's a really good teacher. You know, he has four students who have different abilities and skills and strengths, but he makes sure that they're all getting what they need. So sometimes they need to do experiential learning and it has to be hands-on. And it has to be a task that sort of forces them into trying something new. Like, you know, forces them to work together because that's what Chichi and Sasha need. You know, they need to embrace their impulsivity, but they also need to learn to work as a team , um, and think about their teammates. So then it reigns the chittum for that. Mm-Hmm . But then it's also like if Sonny reads a page of SIV and she hasn't done it before the Chitto Falls, you know, so it's, it's , it rewards both the like, studious thing and he makes sure they all have to have books. Even if they're doing this like hands-on stuff. You all have to read this same book and then you all get a special book that's like more catering. Like that's your elective. That's to your like ability. Yeah . It's
Speaker 2:Good teaching . And I can't remember when it was that they got it for something that they didn't want to get it for, but it was something new that they learned. And I can't remember right now who it was, it was either maybe Sunny or Orlu . One of them gets it and they're just like not impressed or like did not care because they, that's not really like a thing they wanted to learn. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . But it like, it was like, no, you learned it. So yeah , here it is. And then , um, I did highlight something in that scene when they go find kde , um, is that Sasha like tells Orlu like, oh you go on first because you can undo juju . And I don't know why it stuck out to me that it was really interesting that here are these two like male characters and Sasha is not like, you know, he is a very impulsive character and also thinks he's really high level and highly skilled, but he understands his weaknesses, right ? Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . And he understands or lose strength. So he's like, you go on ahead. It has nothing about showing my dominance. Like, you genuinely can get us through this better than I would Sasha . So I like that also the word guy .
Speaker 1:Yeah . Yeah. I love Sasha. I think he's a really well written character. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> because he, he does, he knows his hot headedness and impulsivity can be a problem. And so you can see himself like dialing that back at times. But then there's the times where it's just too much for him and he blows, you know?
Speaker 2:Yeah. And yeah, the teaching and Sasha scene at the games. Yeah. The games just, I was like, it couldn't be anyone but them. I know that Sonny and Orlu could not have done anything to stop them. So they really could only just be their as spectators to watch them get the huge
Speaker 1:Masquerade like
Speaker 2:That they couldn't obviously control very well. And then like that
Speaker 1:Scene is so great. <laugh> .
Speaker 2:Yeah. And then like Orlu saying , like, I felt like that was, that sucked too. 'cause it , you know, then you get a sense of orlu too in the position that he's often put in and he's like, you know, I know that you knew things would turn out great 'cause I was here, but I don't like that you put me in that position. Right . And then Chichis like, but you were here . Like, it's like she understands but she doesn't understand and Yeah. Like
Speaker 1:He's saying it
Speaker 2:Not frustrating that
Speaker 1:You always make me clean up your mess. Yeah. And she's like, but you always clean up my mess. <laugh> , I I knew you had my back . Yeah . <laugh> . It was fun . Yeah .
Speaker 4:I love how after the whole battle and everything, if you could even really call it that, when it all falls from the sky, they have all this, they're like, how are we gonna get this, this
Speaker 1:All <laugh> ? They're like , don't
Speaker 2:Worry about that .
Speaker 1:Just imagining like dump truck piles. It's like copper . It's like when you were in
Speaker 3:Oregon Trail and you kill the deer and you couldn't carry all the meat homes . Yeah .
Speaker 1:<laugh> . I don't wanna else ,
Speaker 2:I think another funny aspect , you're probably too young for this home . Another funny aspect of chi is that it's like reverse , um, like copper value . Yeah. Reverse value. Copper is actually the most valuable. And then like the change is silver. And then like lastly gold, which would be the opposite for most everyone.
Speaker 4:<laugh> less is more kind of in a way and like how people who don't really subscribe to that are like the, not the outsiders, but they're not the norm, you know? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . Um, so I thought that was really interesting. Um, did you guys talk about , um, the, sorry, I zoned out <laugh>. I was just gonna say like the extravagance of like what , what seems to be the extravagance of like when they went off on that trip to uh ,
Speaker 1:The Zuma games? The
Speaker 4:Zuma games? Yeah. Like that just seemed really like interesting and like the whole like, like, but also kind of like, I wanna say like why are you taking children to this? But I guess these aren't just like regular children. These are children who have these magical abilities. Like for her to see, what was his name?
Speaker 1:Uh , mystic Nick .
Speaker 4:Mystic Nick Game . Yeah.
Speaker 1:Really ?
Speaker 4:<laugh> . Yeah .
Speaker 2:That poor guy. I'll say.
Speaker 1:Who
Speaker 4:Was gonna win.
Speaker 2:Yeah . Yeah . I thought he was gonna win too. Um, yeah. That ,
Speaker 1:But maybe he did win in the end. Now that he , because
Speaker 2:He wanted to be a guardian angel. Yeah. Maybe because
Speaker 1:He had known his whole life that that was coming. He just didn't know when. Mm-Hmm . Yeah.
Speaker 2:I was gonna say that like, that whole like part of the plot made me really anxious <laugh> because I was just like, I don't know what trouble they're about to get into. Like I felt Sunny's anxiousness. She was just kind of like, I really wanna be here, but at the same time my mom thinks I'm at like Chi Chi's house. Yeah. Like, that's not exactly where I am at any. And like at several points she could have died and then, you know, and so she's like, they don't even know about this place. Like what? Who's gonna tell ? Like every time she's like, who's gonna tell them? Like if they see my body in this way ? She says it like multiple times. Yeah . Because there are multiple times where she could've died. I like that the author did that , um, that you kind of like felt , felt
Speaker 4:Her
Speaker 2:Anxiety. Yeah. You felt her anxiety throughout the It's very realistic. Yeah .
Speaker 4:Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . I also like that she kind Sunny had that conversation with um, what's the space ? He had
Speaker 1:Mystic Nick ,
Speaker 4:Mystic, Nick's wife , um, I think her name was Kasu . Yeah. Yeah . So I like that they had that conversation and she was basically just like, you know, you know, basically he doesn't really, he's very selective with who he he spoke to, so, you know. Yeah. But also it was kind of dark when she was just like, yeah, I guess I'm not Mrs anymore.
Speaker 1:I thought that was really heartbreaking. Yeah . Um , but also that she took a moment in her grief and probably shock to like
Speaker 4:Have that conversation with
Speaker 1:Her to spend the time with Sonny as well. And it's like, okay, well I can see why the two of them were a couple because they both understood that like this young person needed something from them in that moment. You know, they ride the funky bus <laugh> to get there . The
Speaker 4:Funky train
Speaker 2:Was great . The funky
Speaker 1:Train . So they ride that to get there and then they're weirdly like put up in this very fancy, you know, hotel suite in the like named chain, which I think is so funny too .
Speaker 4:Hilton <laugh> . Yeah . Or sorry, I wasn't sure if I was supposed to say that. I think , yeah , it was Hilton <laugh>
Speaker 1:Hilton or um , Marriott or something. Yeah , Hilton. Yeah . It's at like the high end like non leopard person hotel. And it's interesting watching them discuss that. 'cause you know, sunny goes in and she's like, whoa. Like this is the greatest room ever. And then you have on the other side of that, it's like, this is gross. Like Yeah . This is just an example of how capitalistic like Yeah . Some of our people have gotten
Speaker 4:And which is wild. 'cause doesn't, his mom doesn't, or Lou's family, like live in a, does he also live in a hut or does he live in a bigger home than
Speaker 2:He lives in a bigger home because Oh , well
Speaker 4:He lives in a bigger home than Chichi . Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah. But it's because I think it's too definitely differentiate , but Chi
Speaker 1:But's like in a shack.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, yeah . Like Gigi's family because they are nim I think they
Speaker 4:Have to live that way.
Speaker 2:Yeah. They kind of like, they, you know, avoid themselves of like worldly possessions. Yeah. Okay. So there is that difference. And they do say that his parents like nice things. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> , I think he was just thrown off by like the extreme opulence. Like this is this really nice hotel and then everything else kind of doesn't quite look as nice. It's kind of like shabby and like, well,
Speaker 1:And you also have the like two like more powerful leopard people Mm-Hmm . From that region are both talked about the having used their power for gain. You know, like financial gain, not even Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> in the magical world. But like monetary gain, like I think they say both of them are attached to like oil companies. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> .
Speaker 2:But you can't even fathom how rich they really are. Right. Yeah. Which, yeah.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I love the soccer match. I think it's great. Yeah . Um, you know, and just again, there's something so relatable to me about being the girl that's told you can't play this sport even though that you're better than a lot of the guys telling you you can't play. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> , that was
Speaker 4:So fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was. And like, I mean, I certainly was not sunny as like seriously, like pate good is how they like did her in the book. Like she's magically good at soccer. But like, I totally got that. Like, I remember being a kid when I was like seven or eight and like I wanted to play football with the boys at recess and they wouldn't let me. And I was better than 'em . And they did eventually let me, and
Speaker 4:I even love that. Like, even though they didn't win, they got more chitham <laugh>. Yeah , they
Speaker 1:Did. The other team was like so disgruntled and they're like, but we won, you know, <laugh> , it's like, doesn't really matter. Like I did also like back to the scene where , um, Sasha and Chichi raised the masquerade. You know, they do this really extreme thing , um, that's very dangerous. They call this masquerade a spirit out of the spirit world. And it goes pretty horribly wrong until orlu kind of fixes things. But I think it's so funny that they did all of that. There was really no reason for it. It was just because Chichi was like beefing with this guy that she maybe kind of liked. And it was like, basically she got double dared to do it. And she was like, oh yeah, I'll show you something. And then it was like , so, so wrong <laugh> . Everyone's getting attacked by the, like insects and stuff. Um, and I, I love the way that that scene is drawn. You know, they're in this like nice like dance kind of thing that they've put together for the young people and it's all decorated and there's good food and everything. You're
Speaker 4:Really feeling the vibes. You know, you are <laugh>
Speaker 1:Just like, yeah , I'm gonna raise this insect monster thing
Speaker 2:Because I can out
Speaker 1:Of the dirt just to show you. Like,
Speaker 2:And the thing is, no one asked <laugh>. He was literally like, no, let's not.
Speaker 1:Yeah . No one wanted that. Yeah .
Speaker 2:Like no one wanted that. And she was like, he
Speaker 1:Was impressed when she like just did the juju barrier on him. Like that was enough. Right . And then she's like, you think that's something? Let me almost kill us all. <laugh> .
Speaker 2:<laugh> .
Speaker 1:I love Chichi . She's great.
Speaker 2:<laugh> .
Speaker 1:Can we talk a little bit about spirit faces? Sure. So I think that that's a really interesting concept in this book. And the way that they present the spirit faces is really cool. Like, it actually becomes a physical manifestation. Like you can show your spirit face to Oh , I am , you just are not supposed to. What did y'all think about the spirit faces and how that's portrayed in the book?
Speaker 4:I thought it was so interesting how fast they came and scooped her up after she , uh, she did that. They were like, oh, bet I had a hard time trying to like, visualize some of these spirit faces. But I love how from the beginning they were very much like, they, they explained like almost like the importance of it and like how it's basically like seeing someone naked. Like I feel like giving that and how she was instantly embarrassed by realizing that they did see her spirit face, did a good job of like conveying like the importance of it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> ,
Speaker 2:They were like, we just looked for a second <laugh> .
Speaker 3:She was like, why? <laugh> ? You could have turned away.
Speaker 2:So you knew what it meant. Yeah .
Speaker 3:I mean, they call
Speaker 2:But she got it. She got them back. Sorry. Yeah.
Speaker 3:<laugh> , I mean, I think it's interesting that they call them spirit faces and yes, it affects their face, but it affects their whole person. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> like their abilities , their body language, what they're able to do. So color to spirit face almost doesn't describe accurately the full transformation
Speaker 1:When Sunny's walking in the wilderness. Like when she is going between the two worlds, it sometimes seems like, oh, if you're in the wilderness, your spirit face is your manifestation of yourself. Like other people in the wilderness would see you as the spirit face version of yourself, not as you are in the material world. But I don't think that that's consistent in here. So I, I am kind of curious about what, what dictates whether the spirit faces forward when she's walking? Like when she's gliding or going between 'cause Yeah, sometimes it seems like it is on Yahu and she is behind that like, mask of on Yahu pretty much. And on Yahu is leading and that's who would be visible. But other times it seems very much more dual persona, I guess. Like, and that people would see Sunny not just on Yan Mu if they were in the wilderness at the same time.
Speaker 4:That's something I wanna look more into as well. See if I had finished reading the book before today, I could have done that. <laugh> <laugh> I'll do better next season. Listeners, <laugh>.
Speaker 1:I also was like sugar cream's office with all of the masks on the wall. Mm-Hmm . Um, that are like spirit faces because like Sunny says, like when people transform their spirit face, like she describes how other people's look. Like some are more wooden looking and some are, you know , more squared off and in different ways. Um, did any of you all wonder if the like faces on the wall in sugar creams office or one's like waiting for a new like leopard person to
Speaker 2:Oh, I thought they were just some leopard people passed .
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, but all spirit faces are right. Like it's, I don't Oh , I see . It's like a trill in star tre <laugh> . It's like need the new host or something. Oh . So I was like wondering like, does the number change? Like Mm-Hmm . Because Sunny does count them at one point and I think she, she makes mention of that, but yeah. I wonder like, does a mask come off the wall when some baby is born and now that baby is that spirit face or Oh ,
Speaker 2:Would be interesting. Know .
Speaker 1:And if someone dies, does like a new one go into sugar cream's wall? Mm-Hmm . Or if it is totally unrelated or those like retired spirit faces, <laugh> , they just live there now.
Speaker 3:It's like an old social security number. <laugh>. Yeah . <laugh> .
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, I think that, I wonder if Netty would answer us if we asked that.
Speaker 1:I don't know. I wanna make sure I get through all of the books again to make sure that it didn't get answered. And I've just like , oh ,
Speaker 3:To tweet
Speaker 1:Her . I know she's, she is a ferocious person, so like Yeah. I , I would not wanna step wrong if I'm gonna tweet her about something. We
Speaker 3:Don't do good track work with getting our questions answered by doctors on Twitter.
Speaker 1:I was definitely gonna do my research before we tweet or anything. Make sure it's not a dumb question.
Speaker 3:We don't wanna waste her time. Yeah. I love the presence of the bugs in the book. I thought it was really cool tying that back to her author's biography, how Neto quote for mentioned her love of , um, bugs. And I , I didn't , um, include this in the author bio , um, but when I was researching for it, there was a, she was quoted as saying that like, when she was wandering around and like outside as the child, she loved like, looking in the grass and seeing like a whole world of like the insect life there, which I thought was just really cool. 'cause I love that. Uh , yeah, definitely had similar thoughts, but most of didn't put it as eloquently as she did.
Speaker 2:Most of the insects kind of like, not freak me out, but I was also just kind of like waiting. 'cause a lot of them were like new. And so I was like, oh, what is this bug gonna do? <laugh> ? Because it was like, what is the, the Grasshopper one? Is it a grasshopper
Speaker 4:The red gra
Speaker 1:The , yeah, the the red one that like brings on sleep kind of thing. It's like a little red. The one Yeah , yeah , yeah . CR guy, grasshopper guy. Yeah . Yeah .
Speaker 3:The the the magical ones in the book are just like,
Speaker 1:Oh, they're great , fascinating artists . I love the was artist . And she's
Speaker 3:Like, praising it. I , I love
Speaker 2:Yeah. That was the one that I was like , okay , this is so funny because I I love that. I love that it like, wants praise every time . <laugh> every time it creates a new , um, thing or like has Yeah. We like she validation.
Speaker 1:Yeah .
Speaker 2:But I love the fact that like, Sasha's like , um, like gives you more background and he's like, yeah, but um, if you don't give it the praise it so that it deserves it, like , um, it basically stuns you so that you're watching its final creation and then it literally commits suicide. Yeah. Watch what I'm doing. I was like , that is the most dramatic thing ever .
Speaker 1:Like the most epic Flo of all or else .
Speaker 2:Yeah .
Speaker 1:Are you happy
Speaker 3:Now?
Speaker 4:Also the legs that came out of the , the book that she was reading, I was like, <laugh> .
Speaker 2:Oh yeah . Better
Speaker 1:Not happen in the library. And she's like scared of spiders too. And that and , and then the um, you know , Uday the Spider. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> the really powerful spider creature that I think it's, is it Sasha's book or Chichis? That is her book where there's a book that's of the spider, like it's a compilation of like spells around like the spider and stuff that like they keep saying like no one knows if they find it and then he finds it in Bolus Bookstore. Oh yeah .
Speaker 2:Sasha . Sasha,
Speaker 1:Yeah . Yeah . Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . And then they use that to call the masquerade. That's like an insect disaster. <laugh> . Which like, no surprise guys, you used the Spider book to call something. It's probably gonna be Insect.
Speaker 4:Did did y'all have thoughts on like Chichi and Sasha?
Speaker 1:I like it. It feels like a very authentic teen Yeah . <laugh> relationship.
Speaker 4:I didn't think they were gonna like throw that in there, but like it works. It makes sense. And especially like, even though not exactly sure how old Chichi is, but like we figure there , you know ,
Speaker 1:No one know
Speaker 4:Which , like why she thinks so mysterious about that. <laugh> also like teens in Nigeria just be smoking cigarettes just 'cause
Speaker 1:Apparently <laugh> . I mean, I did when I was a teenager too. I think it was more of a thing back in the day. Well, I mean, I think Kora four is a little bit older than me, but like, certainly when I grew up, like that was the edgy thing. Like, everybody smoked sometimes . Like , and you usually smoke stupid stuff like cloves or, you know , um, 'cause you , you wanted to be cool. You didn't wanna be boring.
Speaker 4:I'm sunny because she's just like, Ugh ,
Speaker 1:That's gross. And like , so
Speaker 4:When I was a kid, I remember like, so we did the, we had the Dare program that came to my school. <laugh> . We had to write an essay. Like I actually won the contest and got a brand new computer. Oh wow. And like I got a limo ride to what used to be , uh, Jillian's , but it's now Dave and Busters at a Run Mills with the other people who were like the runner ups . So , um, they , I remember they gave us like this , uh, magnet to put on our fringe that was like kissing the smokers, like licking an ashtray.
Speaker 5:<laugh> . Which is true.
Speaker 1:I mean , smoking is really gross and I haven't done it for a really long time, but like, I thought it was very identifiable that the teenagers were trying to look cool.
Speaker 5:Yes .
Speaker 2:It's hilarious.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I remember, I think when I studied abroad I remember I'm , I've never really been a smoker, but I remember , uh, you know, you would go out with your fellow international students and you'd have a beer and you'd smoke a cigarette. 'cause that's what you did <laugh> . Yeah.
Speaker 5:Were they , were they also drinking? They did drink. They the weak , it was weak palm wine. Yeah . <laugh> ,
Speaker 4:But also they're teens. So again, like you said, it makes sense.
Speaker 5:<laugh> .
Speaker 2:It's so funny 'cause I was reading that and seeing that, you know, Sasha kept like smoking. And then I got a TikTok that was like, why was I 8-year-old? Why was I an 8-year-old doing this anytime I was around a smoker and it was like all these like really dramatic like
Speaker 5:<laugh> <laugh>
Speaker 2:Or like,
Speaker 5:Ugh ,
Speaker 2:And like making the worst faces ever. I smoke . I
Speaker 4:Heard that backwards now just to be obnoxious
Speaker 5:<laugh>
Speaker 2:Or just like obnoxiously saying like, are am I gonna get secondhand cancer? And I was like, yeah, I was, I was that dramatic around smokers
Speaker 1:Feminism in the book.
Speaker 3:I remember Sonny , uh, telling , talking back to the boys who were like, girls should be on the sidelines. She's like, do you know what Sentry it is? <laugh> ?
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 2:No, I hated the , um, there was the like recipe and um, and it was like how to make , uh, it was like
Speaker 1:Every woman needs to know how to make this for their man. Yeah . And
Speaker 2:At the end it says like salt and pepper too . His taste. Oh , I put ew <laugh>.
Speaker 5:There's something
Speaker 3:About don't do this unless you want to kill your husband. Bon
Speaker 5:Apple tea <laugh> . What was that ? Well ,
Speaker 1:But then also like , that was in the leopard person free agent handbook and it's like, here's the recipe for this, but don't even try it because you're just gonna kill everybody.
Speaker 5:So
Speaker 1:Like ,
Speaker 5:Why
Speaker 1:Write out the whole recipe and then just tell 'em like , don't bother. I just can't do it. I'm
Speaker 3:So intrigued by tainted pepper soup. Now as someone who likes hot stuff , spicy, no , but I know that it's not like, it's clear it's something more than just hot spicy, but like, I really wanna try it now. Yeah .
Speaker 1:Um, back to feminism in the book real quick. Um, I think it's cool that she addresses it pretty head on at times. Like she has with soccer, especially the very like, direct girls can't do it kind of thing. Um , and
Speaker 4:They're rewarded for it almost in a way. Like they're rewarded for being more open-minded. They are . And they ,
Speaker 1:They get the chit . And, and I think it's cool that there's like, there doesn't seem to be at least at the highest levels of like leopard person society any barrier with that. Because when they talk about the people studying at the library and the people that have attained the highest level, like the PhD level they call it, it's pretty even between men and women. And it doesn't seem like that's a thing. The Council of Elders seems pretty evenly split. So I think at times she's showing like the leopard world really wants to be
Speaker 2:Egalitarian.
Speaker 1:Egalitarian, yeah . But there's still a lot of cultural holdovers that like you still have to deal with. And I think that that's a cool approach because it's where we are now. Right? Yeah. It's like, well yeah, certainly in many ways we're in better shape than the fifties, but there's a lot of stuff still there. So you don't wanna get too like, woo hoo, we did it when it's not even close to the work being done <laugh> . You know ?
Speaker 2:Yeah . I think Orlu kind of embodies that a bit where it's kind of like he understands that there is a strength in Chichi and Sonny , but then other times again, that cultural stronghold is kind of like it . He is like , oh yeah, you can't do this because you're girls. Like we are guys . So it's different. And so it's kind of like he's a good character kind to kind of see like that struggle is still present. Well
Speaker 1:And that's interesting too because Sasha is really progressive on it in so many ways because he is, and he's, he's sort of the of the two boys in the group. And maybe just generally, like, I think if you're looking for a character that's like sort of trying to embody machismo, Sasha might be the one you look at. Like he postures a lot. Yes . You know , and he runs his mouth and he likes to be in charge of stuff.
Speaker 4:The guy America with the swag. Yeah .
Speaker 1:<laugh> . But he's like, no , you're gonna let her play and she's gonna embarrass you. And he really is an advocate for her.
Speaker 3:I love that he did that.
Speaker 1:I do too. Yeah . But then he's horrifically jealous when chichi like has attention from other guys. So, you know, it's a , again, it's like the work's not done. Yeah. But you know , everyone's trying,
Speaker 2:Everyone's at different levels .
Speaker 3:He's a flawed person. He's a kid, you know, it's , uh, it's real realistic. His heart's in the right place. Alright . For the game portion of the pod, we are going to take a quiz together. And this quiz is from Black Nerds Create and the quiz is what Black Fantasy book should you read? The first question asks us to pick a movie or a TV show. And our choices are Men in Black. A kid in King Arthur's Court, the Woman King, the Little Mermaid. Um, it looks like from the photo, it's the live action version. Yeah , I think so . And not the Disney version. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> , uh, blade, penny Dreadful and Coral Line . So this is
Speaker 2:A
Speaker 1:I'm torn . This is hard. Yeah. This has a lot of good ones on it. Personally,
Speaker 4:I'm gonna go with The Little Mermaid because I loved the animated movie was one of my favorites. And I also loved the live action version. I love Halle Bailey. I think she did a great job. So yeah,
Speaker 3:I'm gonna go with Coralline, I think just 'cause it's a delightfully disturbing story.
Speaker 1:<laugh> , I'm really torn too .
Speaker 2:The child in Me wants to put Men in Black 'cause I loved that movie . Movie .
Speaker 1:That's a great movie . That
Speaker 2:Movie's so
Speaker 1:Nostalgic for me , but so Is Blade, honestly. Yeah .
Speaker 2:So is Blade . There's a lot
Speaker 3:Of choices here. Yeah ,
Speaker 2:I went with Men in Black though.
Speaker 1:Okay . Okay. I'll go with Blade then. Just to see where it takes to see where we go. See if we get
Speaker 3:Different choices. All right . Second question is, what is your favorite genre to read other than fantasy? Our choices are historical, romance, mystery horror, contemporary sci-fi or action slash adventure.
Speaker 4:I'm very much torn between romance and contemporary because overall I I I'm a huge like, contemporary fan, but I've been in a real romance kick this past like year. So I'm going to go with romance.
Speaker 3:Yeah . This is hard because like, let me , it's like, what month are you asking <laugh> ? Yeah .
Speaker 1:Like what's my mood that day?
Speaker 4:Right . Definitely a mood reader. So I feel that
Speaker 1:I'll go mystery . I'm torn though 'cause I love sci-fi too. But
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm torn between those two
Speaker 3:Or between horror and sci-fi.
Speaker 4:I love the range that we have here. Yeah . Yeah.
Speaker 2:I was gonna say like, how dare you ask a library . What's your favorite genre?
Speaker 1:Like picking your favorite child. You can't do it.
Speaker 2:<laugh> . I'm gonna go with mystery though. 'cause I've been on a really big cozy mystery. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . Um , yeah,
Speaker 3:I guess I'll go, I'll go with horror. I think I've been reading more horror than sci-fi recently. Okay, now we have to pick an element. Water, earth, fire and air.
Speaker 4:I'm gonna pick air
Speaker 1:Fire and just <laugh> tell y'all that I completely scandalized my whole family when we watched Avatar the last Airbender. And then they were asking, well if you could, you know, if you could be a an an earth bender or what , what would you be? And I was like, well obviously Fire <laugh> . They were like, why? I was like, well, 'cause you can kill people. <laugh> like ,
Speaker 2:Well no, but like the air nomads, they were like, you could literally snuff out like oxygen from people and they were like, if they weren't so peace loving , they really could do a lot of damage .
Speaker 1:The thing was that I was like, well if I couldn't do that, I'd wanna be a blood bender. So I guess what what <laugh> It's like you have to think about yourself living in that world. Yeah . And like, gimme the power then so that I don't get killed. Yeah,
Speaker 4:That's
Speaker 3:Fair. So they'll be killed.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I can't look at these options and not think of Avatar. So I'm saying I'm gonna go in the water. Water .
Speaker 3:Alright . Um, what's your zodiac sign? I guess we don't really choose this one.
Speaker 1:No, we just are what we are. Yeah, we
Speaker 3:Are . Unless you're on the cusp by
Speaker 1:Well I'm a cusp. But you still, you still one more than the other . Yeah . I'm last day of Leo, so
Speaker 4:I'm a Libra. Oh, so you have a birthday coming up.
Speaker 2:Okay . I'm a Capricorn.
Speaker 3:I'm Sagittarius. I'm almost a cap.
Speaker 2:Wait, so you guys chose your elements? Mm-Hmm ? <affirmative> because your fire, your fire, your air . Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . Yeah . Yeah . <laugh> tank . <laugh> . I was like no to Earth. 'cause I was <laugh> . I'm very much an earth fan . But
Speaker 3:Are Leos and sage Terrace is both fire. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, okay. Pick a color. Blue, green, red, black, yellow or pink.
Speaker 2:I don't even know how to think about this one. Green,
Speaker 3:Blue,
Speaker 1:Yellow,
Speaker 4:Blue.
Speaker 3:<laugh> .
Speaker 4:They should had purple
Speaker 3:<laugh> .
Speaker 1:They should , should be orange. Where's the orange?
Speaker 3:Limited choices. A relative die and leaves you clues that hint at foul play . What do you do <laugh> ? I don't believe they're dead. I've got to rescue them. Go to the authorities, plot my revenge, launch my own investigation. Strike a deal with a dangerous magical be to bring the relative back, enlist the homies to help <laugh> take up their cause and accomplishment no matter what. Or cry. <laugh>
Speaker 2:A cry . Me crying <laugh> .
Speaker 1:Nobody should strike a deal with a dangerous magical being because it always goes so poorly. We know
Speaker 3:What happens.
Speaker 1:We , we don't want that. Um, oh , realistically probably plot my revenge. I would pro I would launch an investigation first maybe, but I think assuming that it was foul play , well plot my revenge. Well,
Speaker 3:One leads into another <laugh> .
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah . <laugh> . I was gonna say one leads to another, but it's like cry and then maybe launch an investigation.
Speaker 3:You could have a whole sequence here.
Speaker 4:I like enlist the homies. Yeah . I think I'm gonna go back and enlist the homies because like, I can't deal this by myself.
Speaker 2:Own have your own Scooby gang, right? Yeah . <laugh> .
Speaker 3:I'm gonna launch my own investigation.
Speaker 4:Get my own little , uh, gang , uh, loo and , uh, Sasha and Chichi .
Speaker 3:If you had a magical ability , what would it be? Cast delusions, control animals, control plants, blood magic,
Speaker 2:<laugh> . I really want blood magic.
Speaker 1:I wanted blood bending so I could
Speaker 2:Go . I'm sure that's equally as devastating though. Whatever blood magic means, <laugh> ,
Speaker 3:Invisibility, flight, mind reading , control, water.
Speaker 4:I could tell you what I absolutely would not want. I would not want mind reading . I do not want
Speaker 2:Say people stressful too . I was gonna say I'd go insane, but I wouldn't want mind reading <laugh> .
Speaker 1:It's whether you can turn it on or off. Yeah ,
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 4:Like if you could turn it on or off, definitely.
Speaker 3:But would you like have the discipline to turn it off when you should? I feel
Speaker 1:Like you'd have to because otherwise it would be like being in a room full of screaming people all the time.
Speaker 4:Yeah . Like imagine being in here , you
Speaker 1:Couldn't do anything and hearing
Speaker 4:Everyone's thoughts.
Speaker 1:All of the people in the library, I
Speaker 2:Thought you meant in here. And I was like
Speaker 1:Horrible . Oh my God .
Speaker 3:Just imagine all the things you couldn't unlearn about like that people are thinking about you. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1:Yeah , yeah . Flight <laugh> . Yeah.
Speaker 3:I have to choose flight.
Speaker 1:Like give me invisibility .
Speaker 3:Okay, so you , you're going with the the one ring power <laugh> .
Speaker 1:Yes . I totally would. Like, I would be, I I would not have frodo's level of discipline . <laugh> . I would just always be making myself invisible.
Speaker 3:Okay. Gollum
Speaker 1:<laugh> . Jeff , you can't . Awesome. I got legend born, love
Speaker 4:Legend born .
Speaker 1:I haven't read it yet, but now I must.
Speaker 4:I'm typically I typ . So I got an arc of that book when it first came out and I didn't finish it and I circled back when around the second one was coming out when I saw she was gonna be at Oxen Hill. And so I got to see the author talk . I was like, oh my God, I love this series. I don't even typically read this genre, but it's a pretty good one. This ,
Speaker 2:Yeah. I feel like I have to check mine out now too. Um, so I got a comb of wishes and it's Keila or k , um, makes a bargain with a mermaid to bring her mother back to life. Something she's been warned against. Time after time. When more troubles unfold as a consequence of her actions, she must find solutions fast.
Speaker 4:So the book that I got is called Son of the Storm by Sui Davies, Okun Boa . And it says, when Don so stumbles across a warrior wielding magic that shouldn't exist, he's drawn into the ancient city of BAA's darkest secrets. His journey beyond his borders leads him to a discovery that could bring him down an empire. Did you, what happened to you? <laugh> ?
Speaker 1:I
Speaker 3:I the quiz rejected.
Speaker 1:Oh no . <laugh> ,
Speaker 3:I got a Hey smiley face. This Typeform is now closed. It would've been awesome as it was made with Typeform. What's that? Check out Typeform. I I don't know what happened.
Speaker 1:<laugh> . I put , put your answers in again real quick and see what happens. Maybe
Speaker 3:Lemme try in a different browser.
Speaker 1:<laugh> here I can I can try on mine and then answer for you. Okay. And see if it gets you a result. Well
Speaker 4:I click , I want a different book and I think it'll let me take it. Oh. No it didn't . Lemme take it again
Speaker 2:Except it is taking a while to load. Yeah,
Speaker 1:We broke the quiz. It's taking forever to load.
Speaker 3:It wasn't meant to handle this much traffic . They
Speaker 4:Said , look , this is a black history month quiz and it's July.
Speaker 1:We're even here . You waited too long .
Speaker 2:Each episode we ask whether our book passes the Bechdel test . The Bechdel test asks whether a work features two female characters who talk to each other about something that doesn't involve men or boys. So does it pass?
Speaker 4:Yes. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . Mm-Hmm . Yes . Um , of course there I feel like there's a good amount of scenes, but the first thing that comes to mind to me is , um, you know, when she sits and talks to her mom , um, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah. They, that I was thinking of that too. They definitely have all sorts of conversations that are about family and identity. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> and , uh, safety and Yeah.
Speaker 1:Even like the letter she gets from her grandmother, I would say that's a conversation between two women. Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm . <affirmative> that is focused on them, not men or boys. I love it. I do too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's , and she even has a conversation with like sugar cream who's her mentor or becomes her mentor. So,
Speaker 4:Well that's it for this episode of these books Made me join us next time when we'll discuss a book in which our main character has a Hello Kitty themed bedroom. If you think you know which book we're tackling next, follow us on Instagram. We're at these books, made me and drop a comment on our guest , our next read post .