These Books Made Me

Pride & Prejudice: Part 2

• Prince George's County Memorial Library System • Season 3 • Episode 7

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We're back with part the second of our journey to Netherfield and Pemberley with the Bennet family. We delve into Lizzie as a character, whether Mr. Darcy really was in want of a wife, and who really got the short end of the stick in the Lydia and Wickham union. We discuss the long reach of Austen's works and marvel at her incredible skill for writing snappy dialogue. Most of us are hoisted with our own petard when all the shade we threw at Mr. Bennet comes back to bite us in a truly tragic quiz. 

These Books Made Me is a podcast about the literary heroines who shaped us and is a product of the Prince George's County Memorial Library System podcast network. Stay in touch with us via Twitter @PGCMLS with #TheseBooksMadeMe or by email at TheseBooksMadeMe@pgcmls.info. For recommended readalikes and deep dives into topics related to each episode, visit out blog at https://pgcmls.medium.com/.

Hawa:

Hi, I am Hawa.

Darlene:

I'm Darlene

Heather:

I'm Heather.

Hawa:

And this is our podcast, These Books Made Me. Today we're going to be talking about the literary classic Pride& Prejudice by Jane Austen. Friendly warning, as always, this podcast contains spoilers. If you don't yet know whose marriage proposal gets rejected, proceed with caution. Just a heads up, we had some technical difficulties while recording this episode, so while initially we had a guest, she could not make it for our re-recording. However we salvage some audio, so we'll be interspersing it throughout this episode. We have a special guest this week. Could you introduce yourself?

Elizabeth:

Hello everyone. My name is Elizabeth Ajunwa, former colleague of both Hawa and Darlene. But now I am serving as the director of the Betty Boyd Dettre Library and Research Center at the National Museum of Women in the Arts.

Hawa:

A scene in a book that I thought was funny that we probably kind of like passed already in the beginning when they want Jane to go to the Bingley's and like the mom's like, I'm gonna send you in the horse instead of the coach

Heather:

< laugh>. Yes. So that you'll get wet

Hawa:

if it rains that you have to stay there and then she gets really sick. I thought that was like the peak of like her mom's silliness in a way. Cuz, but also it was kind of clever.

Darlene:

Yeah, it was.

Heather:

Yeah, it really worked

Hawa:

She had to stay there like, and she was in the room the whole time really. So nobody was really like checking for her. And the sisters were just kind of like talking smack about Elizabeth cuz she walked there and she had the, her stockings were all dirty and she wanted to check up on her sister and

Heather:

< laugh> well, and yeah, we sort of view it as the mom just being ridiculous again. But yes, it worked out for Jane, but it also worked out for Lizzie because at the end when she's asking Darcy like, when did your feelings change for me? Like, I behaved so abominably to you all the time. And he is like, well the affection you showed for Jane.

Hawa:

Yeah.

Darlene:

Mm- hmm.

Heather:

When, when we were at Netherfield. And so it kind of doubly worked for the mom. She landed two big fish for her daughters out of that.

Hawa:

The mom's probably like we all be trying to play me, but I clearly got- got the long game going.<laugh> uh

Darlene:

A true mastermind. Yeah.

Hawa:

I thought that was hilarious and creepy, but also it worked. So yeah.

Heather:

< l augh>. Well it also did seem like the, the sisters knew that Well the, the Bingley sisters knew they had been played.

Hawa:

Yeah. Oh, like< laugh>. That's probably why they were so irritated.

Heather:

She was like, why did they, you know, why did you walk here? Why did you like< laugh>? Why did you come on a horse? Like it definitely seemed like they realized like, uh, we've been had< laugh>

Hawa:

< laugh>. And then towards the end she's like, yeah, we gotta get out of here. I don't care if I have to bor- the mom wants to keep them there. And she's like, I don't care if I have to borrow a horse or carriage I'm gonna make my way back home.

Darlene:

Yeah. I had remarked before that. I do appreciate that. The first few times that I read this were in classes with like female professors. Cuz I feel like maybe it was my, the second time or I took a class on Jane Austen and I think it was that professor that had said that maybe we should think about Ms. Bennet a little more, like with a little more sensitivity. Because if you really think about what she was dealt with, what she dealt with at the time, she had five daughters to marry off. And I mean, she could have easily just been like, well, once I die, like I can't provide for you. Like, that's it. But she was like very determined to get them married so that they're well situated in their life.

Heather:

Well how much of that also was self-interest for her because

Darlene:

Oh, well yes.

Heather:

She definitely is under the impression that her husband is dying before her, which I assume he's older than her.

Darlene:

Okay.

Heather:

But that's a whole bunch of why she's trying to get them married off well is because what's, I mean, that was why Collins was appealing. It's like, well, at least we won't be booted out of our home then.

Darlene:

Mm-hmm.

Heather:

They'll have to let us stay.

Hawa:

Mm-hmm.

Heather:

Because then we're family to them. And so I, yeah. I don't know how much of that was taken care of her daughters versus taking care of herself.

Darlene:

Well that's true. But it, it's still, there's more on her mind than like, it just being like frivolous. Like I just wanna get my daughters married. It's kind of like there's like a reason for it.

Heather:

That's true. But then she was also so excited about Lydia marrying Wickham when that was a terrible match. She knew it was a terrible match. She knew they had to pay for the match. Like she knew everybody knew that Lydia had run off.

Darlene:

Oh yeah.

Heather:

... without the marriage.

Darlene:

That she still wants to like be like, look at my married daughter. It's like, lady, you're not getting it. She married at 15.

Heather:

Yes. After she ran off and shacked up with the dude in London for a few weeks,<laugh> and then had to be shotgun wedding by her uncle. I I, mm Yeah.

Elizabeth:

Yes.< laugh>. And, and actually with revisiting the book, I was like, oh, I forgot how<laugh> annoying the mother could be. But it's true. I mean this is pretty, it's it's life or death. This is the one job she has is to make sure that her family is taken care of. And also the little that I know about the Regency era, the, the status was very set. And except if you're a woman and unmarried because that's like kind of the moment you could really< laugh> be out to the wolves. Like who, who's going to take care of you? Who's going to make sure you're okay? Uh, so, so for sure it's, it's life or death. Her silliness and ridiculousness is warranted because she's like she needs, someone has to take care of of these girls. And also I don't want to lose my place in society and my reputation in society. And I think it probably would've felt like it reflected on her and her parenting and her as a mother if her daughters are not married.

Hawa:

I think so. It's so interesting because before reading this book, I didn't realize that the first line of this book was one of those things where everyone's like, yeah, it's one of those famous first lines.

Darlene:

Mm- hmm. Yeah.

Hawa:

So for those of you who don't remember or don't know, it's, it is a truth universally acknowledged that a single man in possession of a good fortune must be in want of a wife. So I was reading that to see do y'all feel like that holds truth to the men in this book? Because I feel like Darcy wasn't really all that worried about finding a wife and he just kinda found that he loved Elizabeth and that's why he wanted to marry her. But I don't know

Darlene:

<laugh>. Yeah I think

Heather:

But he did need her.

Hawa:

You said what?

Heather:

What? So like maybe he wasn't consciously aware that he needed a wife, but by the end he very much was like, you've made me a better man. Yeah. Oh yeah, for sure. And none of this would've happened had I not met you. So I feel like yes, I think and.

Darlene:

he does come.

Heather:

holds up for the book.

Darlene:

Yeah. I think he did come off as like a bachelor towards the beginning though.< laugh> there was like a sense that like I'm not in any hurry to get married. Especially not with all of these women that I've like seen in society. I guess

Hawa:

I also think it's funny that this of course emphasize, I mean I guess it makes sense for the story that it emphasis in this possession of a good fortune. Like dang broke men don't want wives too. But then again maybe they don't want'em cuz they don't wanna have that financial burden.< laugh>.

Heather:

Yeah. They can't get'em. Right. Like poor Fitzwilliam. Like I would love to have a love marriage but I'm gonna have to find some woman I don't like with some money. Cause that's all my options are.< laugh>. That was for Wickham too. But then he got stuck with Lydia.

Hawa:

At least he got his debts paid off.

Darlene:

Yeah.

Hawa:

And little allowance and some sister's, sister-in-laws to mooch off of.

Darlene:

Yeah. I still think it's a, it is a pretty tongue in cheek first sentence though. Like I don't think she, I mean I, I think she means it but she's kind of like being playful.

Heather:

It's definitely coming from like the mom's point of view.

Hawa:

Oh Absolutely. Yes.< laugh>, she definitely is like,

Darlene:

Well I think she says it in some iteration a little later, maybe even on that page or the next. I will say it was like really sweet to read it this time around and just see like how much sisterly affection exists between Jane and Elizabeth.

Heather:

Yeah.

Darlene:

I don't know why I didn't like gravitate towards that then but like

Hawa:

She trekked through the mud for her baby or her, her

Darlene:

Older sister.

Hawa:

Oh her old. She trekked in the mud for her older sister< laugh>.

Darlene:

But just the way that like

Heather:

Three miles!

Darlene:

Yeah.< laugh> anything that Elizabeth knows and the only thing I mean she really leaves out is maybe anything related to Jane only cuz she doesn't wanna make her sad.

Hawa:

Mm- hmm.

Darlene:

about the Bingley situation. But yeah, like anything she finds out, she's just like, yep. Jane's the person to tell

Hawa:

<laugh>. Yeah. They do have just a lovely bond together. And then I feel like by the end of the book we see Georgiana gets that with Lizzie as well.< laugh> like I, I thought it was so sweet like when the engagement is announced or Darcy tells his family or whatever that Georgiana like wrote a letter and she couldn't contain herself. So like it was four pages front and back about like how excited she was

Darlene:

Yeah.

Heather:

Just thought that was very nice.

Darlene:

Yeah, I will say I did like that there was some sort of balance cuz it almost made it seem like that Jane was mostly the very naïve one and it was like Elizabeth that always had to be like, no, like you either have to think this way or this way but two people can't be right or you can't think nicely of everyone. And a lot of the times, yes Jane was proven wrong, like she should not have really thought nicely of Caroline but there was one where like Jane outright says you judge people too quickly and you never wanna change your mind on people even though circumstances change. I think you should really like check on that.

Heather:

Yeah.

Darlene:

And I think that she was probably the first time someone's outright told her that

Heather:

She was right about Mr. Darcy.

:

Yeah.

Heather:

Right. Like at the point where Lizzie first relates what she's heard from Wickham, you know, Jane's like, well< laugh>, you know, there's a way maybe they've had a misunderstanding and they both were, you know, she really does try to see from both sides.

Darlene:

Mm-hmm.

Heather:

And ultimately she was right about that. You know, that all of these things that Lizzie was getting annoyed with him about weren't out of malice and he was a good person. He was just real awkward.

Hawa:

Why do you feel like this book resonated with you? If it did? Sorry.

Darlene:

With us or people in general?

Hawa:

With you or people in general. You know, that's a good way of putting it.

Darlene:

Yeah.

Hawa:

I like that. Cuz you know, may not necessarily be a relatable story to you, but

Heather:

I mean we have a spirited heroine. Yeah. That I think is very easy to like, you know, like it's very easy to see things that you like about yourself in Lizzie or things that you wish about yourself in Lizzie< laugh> and there's a good love story in it and you have redemption of a character that looks like a jerk at the beginning, which is, you know, I think that's good too. People want, people have a redemption arc and, and that's good. Um, and then you have a lot of just women interacting with other women and I will be honest, I don't know that I've ever heard a guy say, yeah I love Jane Austen when I live here

Darlene:

< laugh>. Yeah.

Heather:

I'm sure that person exists and I don't mean that to be offensive, but it's pretty common I feel like for girls to talk about Jane Austen books mm-hmm as like a favorite or something that was influential for them when they were younger. And so, yeah, I mean I think that you just have a lot, lot of things in there that are just sort of classic themes. I think you have a very classic heroine. I think it's, it's also just really well written. Like the dialogue just pops and you know, I rewatched the movie and the miniseries, the 1995 one with Colin Firth in it. I don't think they cut a single line of dialogue from the book. So it's six episodes and these are very, it's a dialogue heavy book. There's a lot of back and forth and that's the best part of the book is the conversations. And I think they kept every line.

Hawa:

Okay, sounds Like I need to get into the miniseries< laugh>.

Heather:

It's really wonderful. And you know, they didn't need to put any filler in around that. I mean yeah you have beautiful scenery and like, okay there goes some horses or there's, you know, music at the ball but they didn't have to do anything.

Hawa:

Mm- hmm.

Heather:

They basically had the script like just cut out the stuff that's scenery notes and you have the script already there. I don't think there's a lot of books like that where it's, it's that well drawn and that dialogue heavy and I think that that really, that really works like that, that's accessible even if the language is a little dated.

Hawa:

Mm-hmm

Heather:

I think you really feel the characters come through, they're talking to each other. I, I think that that's just a really, really well drawn piece of the book and I think that it holds up and I think it's, it's very accessible to people even if it is an old book.

Darlene:

Yeah. And I mean I think it also plays a little on like you said, certain established themes. There's like, I feel like it almost mirrors like Cinderella in a way as well. It is like a sort of Cinderella story cuz I don't think even in Cinderella, I don't think she was really of a lower class. I think it was just

Heather:

Her dad died.

Darlene:

Her lot in life. Yeah.

Heather:

Evil stepmom,

Darlene:

< laugh>. Yeah.<laugh>. Yeah. And yeah, I think her focus on the minutia of people's lives I think made it so much more interesting and yeah, I think it's a really good character study cuz she fleshes out her characters really well. Even if they don't have a lot of dialogue or a lot of pages dedicated to them, you still get a sense of who exactly they are. Cuz even as someone like he's on a small character but he's like a smaller character like Mr. Collins, you still.

Heather:

mm- hmm.

Darlene:

like you know a Mr. Collins.

Heather:

Yeah.

Darlene:

Or like you just get a sense of who he is. And I would say that if you were to tally like all, like all the pages where you see things on, see things written about him, it wouldn't be that much. But you still get a sense of that character. And I think she does that for all her characters really. I don't think there's anyone that I don't feel like I know on some level and I think that we like in opposition a little bit to like Angela Johnson where I think we kept like wondering about certain characters. Mm- hmm., I just feel like that wondering wasn't really there for any character in this book for me.

Heather:

That's true. Like you have a lot of context.

Darlene:

mm- h mm.

Heather:

For all of the people. And I think that's a really good point about the Cinderella story. Like there is a reason we wanna see the, the nice girl that we relate to gets the castle in the end. Mm- hmm. And she doesn't have to change really to do it. And I think that that's appealing. Like who doesn't wanna castle? A rich husband< laugh> and a manor and servants.

Hawa:

So I was gonna ask y'all if y'all think Elizabeth is a good role model, I personally think that I do like her as a character and I do think that she's a pretty good role model. She doesn't really do anything that's like ridiculously crazy like in the book. Right. And I think ultimately, you know, she may be judgy in the beginning, but she comes around and I think that's, I think being able to come around and accept, you know, you may have been wrong in the beginning is always good quality of a role model and she stands up for herself. Right. Like, so she's like very clear on not wanting to marry Mr. Collins, which I think is great because I feel like there could have been a lot of pressure surrounding that. Like, do it for your family. And she was just like, no. So those were my two favorite things.

Heather:

She doesn't take crap off of people. Yeah. And I will say she wasn't wrong in the beginning. Darcy was incredibly rude at the dance.

Darlene:

I mean he, he even owns them to it. Yeah. I think it was interesting that Austen said that she really hoped people liked Lizzie. I'm like, yeah, if your goal was to make a very likable character, I mean I think you've achieved on all accounts. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that Elizabeth is not their favorite character.

Hawa:

Yeah.

Heather:

She walked three miles in the mud for her sister and put up with those awful women.

Darlene:

Yeah.

Heather:

And the dude she didn't like just to be with her sister.

Darlene:

Yeah.

Heather:

She's great.

Darlene:

And she's very ride or die for her sister. Like if anyone started to say like anything snarky about her, she would like set them straight.

Hawa:

Yeah. True qualities of a sister.

Heather:

She's told Lady Catherine to get off her lawn. Like she was just not having it with her even that probably was scary.

Darlene:

The dinner scene with them was funny too when she like didn't wanna answer her questions like outright.

Heather:

Yeah. She didn't want to say how old she was.

Darlene:

Yeah. She's like, well you can't expect me to let you know with all my sisters being out

Hawa:

<laugh>.

Darlene:

So yeah, I think she has like a lot of admirable qualities and I think it's very purposeful cuz obviously Jane Austen wanted us to really like her and true. Like even all of her faults, she recognizes them.

Heather:

Mm- hmm.

Darlene:

in the end. I think that that's really important because I think the mark of bad characters are people that don't end up being self-aware. Cause I'm thinking back like, I feel like< laugh> now that we all rewatch, like Gilmore Girls again and everyone's always like, oh gosh, Lorelai,

Heather:

Oh Lorelai Yeah.

Darlene:

Yeah. Lorelai and Rory are just horrible.

Heather:

They pretty much are, and actually that's really interesting to bring up Gilmore Girls cuz we've talked about how resonant this book is and like there's no way that, what's her name, name Amy Palladino. Yeah,

Speaker 4:

Amy Sherman

Heather:

Was not a Jane Austen reader.

Darlene:

Mm.

Heather:

Because just the pitter patter of the banter in Gilmore Girls is obviously drawn from something like this where again, like there's this and there's Shakespeare. Like those are the things that I'm thinking of where the dialogue back and forth just snaps like that< laugh> and it's, yeah, very, very long, um, long wake for this book. In terms of influence, I think, yeah.

Elizabeth:

I think this book is so, remains so popular because she just has such a strong character. She reads, she has thought, she has strong opinions. It's just, I I I don't think you really saw a lot of characters like that until this book. So I would say for her time, she is a good role model. She's, she has a, uh, I don't wanna say a personality, but she just has like opinions. She, I think to see a woman in what this, where this era is coming from, have strong opinions and try to have some decision making in her own life is a, is a thing that could be inspiring because she only had so many choices and ultimately she did get to choose who she married. And that's not something that as we see as other characters in the book, uh, people could have. So yeah. I like Lizzie. She can, she, you know, she can.

Hawa:

be a little biased.

Elizabeth:

Um,< laugh> Yes, I am. I am. And can she be, uh, a bit snobbish at times and a little bit, uh, superior in her thought process? Yes.< laugh>. Um, but I think she also is, uh, you, Darlene you were saying she does have a self-awareness and an a, a recognition. She does learn like, hey, I was not being fair all the time in my opinions on people.

Hawa:

Well, my only other question for y'all, which I feel like I already know the answer to what you're gonna say is if you would recommend this book now?

Darlene:

Yeah, I think I would. I, I feel like at this point I've reread it so many times and I don't really like rereading things, but I feel like every time I reread this I enjoy the experience and I feel like I always get something new out of it. And I don't think that there are many people or many writers that have that effect. And so I think for that reason I would recommend it. I think even of the things that you're critical of or maybe if you're looking at it from a modern perspective, like just all the things that you're not in agreement with about like how things were done at that time. I think it's still really interesting like conversation piece just to like talk it through with someone while still having a side plot or it's the main plot, but like of just the really nice romance of two people that like misjudged each other and by the end, you know, realized that they were a lot more alike and ended up being in a relationship where they both made, like helped each other grow mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And I think that that can resonate for modern readers even now.

Heather:

Yeah. I also would recommend it. And like you Darlene, I've read this book multiple times though I went a long time between this reread and the one that I had done prior. And I'm not somebody that historically has said, oh, Jane Austen's one of my favorite authors, you know, I think she's a good author. And like, reading it again, I saw more stuff in there that I didn't remember and like I had forgotten how fresh it feels for being it's 250 years old.

Darlene:

Yeah.

Heather:

Like it's a really old book.

Darlene:

Yeah.

Heather:

And, and I struggle to think of other books from that time period that have held up as well, you know, and, and then on top of that I think it is, it's very instructive as a classic. It shows a piece of time. It shows, uh, you know, what it took to be a female author then, which.

Darlene:

Mm- hmm.

Heather:

Which was no small feat and, and just, it's one of those books I feel like you almost have to read to understand modern literature well, because I think it's that impactful.

Darlene:

Yeah.

Heather:

Especially for women who write, it would be hard to not have this as context for a lot of the, the books that are being written now. Like even something like Normal People, which I think I brought up in another episode, there's no way she didn't read.

Darlene:

mm- hmm.

Heather:

Pride&Prejudice and Sense& Sensibility and Emma, I mean.

Darlene:

Mm- hmm.

Heather:

...all the Austen books. There's no way that the way that she writes dialogue doesn't somehow stem from having that foundation when she was probably a child.

Hawa:

Mm- hmm.

Heather:

Because I think again with Jane Austen, a lot of us read her young.

Darlene:

Yeah

Heather:

She's definitely one of the more accessible classic works I think

Darlene:

Probably one of the first female authors that you encounter, especially like in terms of classic books, I mean, I think there's a push now to introduce more like female authors.

Heather:

mm- hmm.

Darlene:

but I feel like.

Heather:

it's her and Louisa May Alcott. That's who you read when you're young.

Darlene:

Yeah.

Heather:

Like,

Darlene:

Yeah. Like I actually read it pretty late. I, so I had said this I think in the previous recording that I hadn't read it until college, but I remember like most of high school, it was a lot of like male authors.

Heather:

Mm- hmm.

Darlene:

And that's just what my male teachers like gravitated toward. I think the only female author that I really remember reading was Zora Neale Hurston's. Their Eyes were Watching God.

Hawa:

Well at least it was a good one.

Darlene:

Yeah. no<laugh>

Hawa:

< laugh>.

Darlene:

Yes. But even, but that was very impactful too. And I feel like a lot of that had to do with the fact that for a really long time all I was reading were like, like male-written stories. And there's no real like identification with that. That I think that goes back to what you were saying that a lot of like female readers really resonate with Jane Austen and her writing. And it's mostly like women that tend to say that she's their favorite author.

Heather:

And I just think of how many books we've now covered for the pod that to me, I feel like have roots in this book in some way.

Darlene:

Mm- hmm.

Heather:

the Garcia Girls, mango Street, like these relationships between sisters, Jane Austen and I think Louise May Alcott were the example books for many people growing up of like, this is how you draw a family.

Darlene:

Mm-hmm.

Heather:

Um, in in a good way. You know, certainly all books have families in them. Yeah. But those are well drawn families where every person has their own weight and they take up their own space and they seem real. And there's that dialogue< laugh>, you know? Um, and we've seen that. And so many of our books, A Tree Grows in Brooklyn the same way. The relationships between Katie and Sissy and Evie and Francie. And it, it's just, uh, I I think anyone that's writing women now probably owes something to Jane Austen.< laugh>.

Darlene:

Yeah,

Hawa:

Right.< laugh>,

Heather:

Which is, you know,

Darlene:

Yeah. And it's just great sourced material. Like you just think about all the modern adaptations like Bridget Jones diary.

Heather:

mm- hmm.

Darlene:

And like Clueless and there's just so much richness there that then they can.

Hawa:

Did you just, you say Clueless. Yeah, Clueless is a modern and uh, a daptation of Emma. Oh, okay. So I haven't read Emma, so that's why I thought you were talking about this book. I was like, wait, what< laugh>.

Darlene:

No.

Hawa:

Did I miss something? It's been a while since I've seen that< laugh>. Sorry.

Darlene:

Yeah. But no, yeah, they definitely borrowed a lot from like Jane Austen's like source material, but I'm just like, yeah, there was so much there for them to really dig through and kind of like modernize. And that's why I say like, it, there are certain elements that still feel like very modern. I feel like that's why we still are okay with it. Like it doesn't feel so dated that it feels like of its time.

Elizabeth:

Yeah. I feel like every, every romantic comedy is usually trying to recreate this in some way, the people who hate each other and then like each other. And it's, it's very enduring and it's, it's fun. It's fun to read. And uh, marriage is still very much an important aspect of people's lives today. And it determines a lot< laugh> in our, I mean it does, I mean, being married in today's society, you get, uh, specific financial benefits and tax benefits and< laugh>, you know, it, it's very important. There's so many Pride& Prejudice references out there. So I mean, I just, yeah, so just to know the references alone, you can recommend it, but I just recommend it because it's a well written book. Like the, the book is well, well, well written, even though some of the language can be a little, you know,< laugh> regency era. It's, it's funny, there's some funny jokes in there now. I'm like, now I kind of wanna re reread it to see if like, and just read it as Mr. Bennet just being sarcastic the whole time. No, it's a different take on it. Yeah. I, I definitely recommend it. It's, it's a good book to reread too actually. Um

Hawa:

Yeah, as somebody who this was their first time reading, I definitely would recommend it and I'm looking forward to reading more of her work in the future. So yeah, Each episode we are heading into the library and talking to you, well not you, but people like you right here on the stacks today we wanna know, have you ever changed your mind about something or someone?

Person in the Stacks #1:

I am probably like in the 1% of the people who don't understand or don't like the Leonard Cohen song, Hallelujah. Until I heard it was on the movie Sing and it was being sung. by the elephant. And that one verse she was singing really like, got me like, oh, that's what the song's about. Got it. I still don't like the song completely, but I love that verse and I love the way it was in the movie,

Person in the Stacks #2:

I would say like, Sound of Music. Cuz at the time I, I liked the movie, but I didn't wanna say it cuz ever cuz I feel like I would get made fun of. But no, I really, I I like it a lot so I feel like I don't really need to like fake, I guess

Person in the Stacks #3:

My first impression of Mr. Rogers was that he, and that he was just a guy on tv, but then I matured and realized what a wonderful and magical human being he was.

Person in the Stacks #4:

I I did think that the new Top Gun movie was gonna be really great cuz I had heard great things and then I watched it and thought it was just garbage.

Person in the Stacks #5:

I, at first I thought Among Us was a stupid trend, but then<laugh> during the pandemic I got lonely and watching people play Among Ss with their friends made me less lonely.

Darlene:

Alright, so now we're gonna take a little quiz. It's a SparkNotes quiz and it's Which Pride& Prejudice character Matches Your Personality. Alright. So the first question is, when you meet a new person, how long does it take you to figure out whether or not you like them? Is it maybe five minutes, it takes a couple of days, 20 minutes? Or it's instantaneous?

Hawa:

This, this was a hard question because it's just like to figure out whether or not you like them is just like, okay, so I mean, if I don't like someone, I'd probably figure that out maybe within like 20 minutes. But like to say, if I know if I like someone that I don't know, I'm rambling, but I'm gonna say 20 minutes because yeah,<laugh> like if, if, if there's something about someone that I don't like, I probably am not gonna figure that out right away. But people are, if you can tell if people are likable, I feel like within that long time,

Darlene:

Yeah,

Heather:

I'mma tell on myself as probably it's instantaneous.<laugh>.

Multiple Laughers:

< laugh>.

Darlene:

I think I'm like Hawa. I think it would be like 20 minutes. Like it wouldn't be, it wouldn't be like instantaneous or within the first five minutes, but maybe like after talking to someone a little bit and getting a sense of like their mannerisms and stuff.

Elizabeth:

I said 20 minutes.

Heather:

Yeah, I'm torn with like five minutes. I need to see someone like, yeah, it can't just be

Darlene:

Like, it can be as soon as your eyes locked.

Heather:

I walk into a room and I see somebody immediately. Nothing has happened but like it's pretty instantaneous. I don't know that I need the whole five minutes.

Hawa:

< laugh>

Darlene:

Well it says maybe, maybe< laugh>. The next question is, do you open up to people easily?

Heather:

Oh wow.

Darlene:

The responses are, yes, I'm an open book or not at all. It takes years to unlock my backstory.

Hawa:

Why are the options for this quiz so extreme?

Elizabeth:

Yes, is there an in between?< l augh>.

Heather:

These are very binary options and I don't feel like either is right

Darlene:

We did just read a book called Pride& Prejudice< laugh>.

Hawa:

Well that's true. So I'm gonna go with not at all, it takes years to unlock my backstory because I'm not really an open book.

Darlene:

Yeah, same

Hawa:

I'm also kinda like, people think that I'm like, I'm not, I'm, I'm actually kind of shy and introverted. People think that I'm not. And I think it just depends on where you meet me in context. But that doesn't necessarily make me an open book. I'm just chatty when I'm nervous.<laugh>

Darlene:

< laugh>.

Heather:

Yeah, I'll go with not at all as well.

Darlene:

Yeah, same.

Elizabeth:

Yeah. Not op-. Yeah, not whatever's not open book because< laugh> I'm comfortable with people I've, you know, gotten to know, but I dunno.< laugh>.

Darlene:

Alright, so you're at a party where you don't know anyone. How do you handle it? Is it you gravitate towards the snack table? Begin an immediate search for the dog? Pretend to text on my phone? Go up to a group of people and introduce myself. Find someone else who's alone and start a conversation with them? Or I stand outside and wait for my friends so we can go in together.

Heather:

Give me the dog.

Multiple Laughers:

<laugh>

Hawa:

My answer is pretend to text on my phone. Even though I probably won't be pretending to text, I'll probably just be scrolling through social media. I would say stand outside and wait for my friends, but I don't have a car and it's cold. So yeah.< laugh>, I'll be texting.

Elizabeth:

Yeah, for me it's between, I pretend to text on my phone and then it would be I find someone who's all alone and start to chat with them. Cuz I'm really good one-on-one with people.

Hawa:

<laugh>.

Elizabeth:

Um, so I'm gonna choose that one just to be different.

Darlene:

Think. Ooh. It really depends on the day.

Hawa:

< l augh>.

Darlene:

I think I find someone else who's alone and start a conversation with them.

Heather:

I'm talking to the dog.<laugh>.

Hawa:

I wish you all could have seen Heather's face. She's like yeah, no.

Darlene:

Yeah. Would you ever marry for any reason other than love?

Heather:

Yes.

Darlene:

Yes or no?

Heather:

Yes.

Darlene:

Yes.<laugh>

Hawa:

Um, no. But if, if I were to, so my answer is gonna be no. Right? But if I were to say yes, the other reason would probably be something like extreme. Like a boatload of money or like a oh. Yeah. Like you gotta marry this person or I'm gonna kill your family. You said what?

Heather:

What if I'm old and they have a really good pension.<laugh>< laugh>.

Hawa:

Heather was so quick to say. Yes. I love that.< laugh>.

Elizabeth:

Yeah. I, I don't, I, I'm, I would say no as well just cuz I, I, I mean I feel like, I don't know, it's like, uh, I, because I, I think about getting married for money cuz that's literally the only reason that I would get married for. And it's just, it's like why I could just be rich and not, you know, like I it's somebody else or Yeah, it's like, you know, may, I don't know. I don't know if I would want to marry them. It's like why< laugh>.

Hawa:

I to see her face?

Elizabeth:

Just, I dunno. It's like, you know, just to take advantage of money. I don't know. I'll take advantage of the money while I'm spending time with that person and then move on. Like just, I dunno. And now I sound judgmental, right?< laugh>? I'm not judgmental

Darlene:

I think I'm like the opposite. Only because I don't have any sort of like, desire to get married. So I don't, yeah, I don't know.

Hawa:

that I don't have strong desire to get married. If you're listening to this, you know,< laugh>.

Darlene:

< laugh>. Very subtle. Hawa< laugh>? I don't know that I, that there would be any reason aside for like, love that I would feel the need to say yes.

Hawa:

Okay. Okay. That makes sense.

Heather:

Inheritance.

Darlene:

Inheritance.

Hawa:

< laugh>. Heather's like, let me spell it out for you.

Heather:

because you might be old and need somebody.< laugh>.

Darlene:

I mean, that's fair. That is fair. Okay. You know what, I'll change my mind.

:

< Multiple Laughers>.

Darlene:

You guys helped me change my mind? You're right. If I don't care either way, I might as well do it for money.<laugh>. Alright. What first impression do you give off? Quiet, easygoing, modest? Reserved, haughty, unfriendly? Good-natured, spirited, headstrong? Clever, sardonic, indifferent? Lively, amicable or sympathetic? Smart, practical, down to earth?

Hawa:

Lively, amicable and sympathetic. I'm gonna go with that. Maybe, I don't know. It's also hard to know what first impression you give off.

Darlene:

< laugh>.

Heather:

Yeah, that's the thing. Like I could say what I think I'm giving off, but I dunno how successful that like, I dunno if that's actually how people are perceiving it. I'm gonna go with good natured, spirited and headstrong. Just because I think people always say I'm very stubborn. So

Hawa:

<laugh>

Heather:

I assume that people get that early.

Darlene:

Okay.

Heather:

Andrea can back me up on that.

Multiple Laughers:

< laugh>.

Hawa:

Darlene, I feel like for you we had said quiet, easygoing, and modest.

Darlene:

Okay. Yeah, I was stuck between that or smart, practical and down to earth. I think it was one of those two.

Hawa:

I think it was smart, practical and down to earth actually. One of those two.

Darlene:

Okay. I will choose the latter.

Hawa:

I feel like for Darlene's answers it's a group effort, like< laugh>.

Darlene:

Okay, so do you believe in love at first sight? Yes or no?

Hawa:

No.

Darlene:

No.

Elizabeth:

<laugh>? Yeah. Three nos.

Hawa:

< laugh>

Heather:

Yes.

Hawa:

Not for me anyway. Maybe for other people.

Heather:

I judge people like that.

Darlene:

Which stands to reason I love like that.

Heather:

Exactly. I've decided right from the jump.

Multiple Laughers:

< laugh>.

Darlene:

Alright. You see someone attractive across the crowded room, what do you do? Smile at them. Ask someone else to make an introduction. Go over and say hello or ignore them for the rest of the night. But occasionally steal a few side long glances.

Hawa:

< laugh>. I'm torn between a smile at them because I feel like I would do like an awkward smile. Like after we accidentally make eye contact like a, like a hey and then ignore them for the rest of the night. But occasionally steal a few, a few sidelong glances cuz ignore feels so dramatic.

Heather:

That's strong. I think you have more game than that.

Hawa:

< laugh>. I'd probably just smile them to be honest. And then if you know you trying to see what's good, then you know you go, you know where I'm at. Yeah, go with that.

Darlene:

I'm actually gonna put ignore them.

Multiple Laughers:

< laugh>.

Heather:

You're gonna be Mr. Darcy.< laugh>. Oh gosh, I don't know. I guess I'll smile at them.

Hawa:

You're not gonna go over and say hello.

Heather:

I might, it depends on the setting.<laugh>.

Elizabeth:

This quiz is interesting because also I feel like it just depends on who I am that day. Like, like there, there's a version of me that probably would smile at them. There's a version of me that would, you know, go up to them and then there's a version of me that would ignore them. I would not ask anyone to introduce me though. I wouldn't do that. But yeah, I think it just depends on how I'm feeling that day. I, I'm going to say, I'm gonna say go over and say hello.

Darlene:

Alright. What's most important to you in a significant other similar values? Honesty. A sense of humor, dependability, attractiveness, or a good career.

Hawa:

It just felt like this was a, I don't know, this is a hard question and I ended up.

Heather:

All of these are important.

Darlene:

Yeah.

Hawa:

Yeah. And I ended up picking similar values because I feel like all the rest of the other things could count as values. So that's my way of cheating. Um,<laugh>.

Elizabeth:

I think where I am in my life right now,< laugh>, um, uh, dependability is probably like a big one for me. I definitely think I'm in a space of a partnership. Uh, if the, you know, so that's probably my, yeah. Yeah. I just would hope they would have all these things< laugh> and we don't have to worry about it.< laugh>,

Heather:

This is again like what stage of life

Hawa:

Yeah.

Darlene:

Yeah.

Heather:

Because like right now sense of humor or honesty, but if I need the pension< laugh> that's gonna change things

Hawa:

Um, Heather is very concerned about this pension

Heather:

< laugh>. I'm getting old, that's the thing I guess I will go with. I will go with honesty. I don't like liars.

Hawa:

See, I feel like honesty is a value of mine.

Darlene:

Yeah.

Hawa:

So that's how I pigeonholed that in there.

Heather:

I was torn, sense of humor's really important too.

Darlene:

Mm- hmm. Agreed. Yeah. I'm gonna go with similar values. Do you hold grudges? Yes or no?

Heather:

Yes

Hawa:

Absolutely

Heather:

< laugh>. Hundred percent. Yes.< laugh> Forever.

Hawa:

It's giving Elizabeth

Heather:

Long memory.

Hawa:

< laugh>

Heather:

There's that quote about like, the mills of God grind finely, but they grind exceedingly small or they grind slowly, but they grind exceedingly small. That's me.

Hawa:

<laugh>,

Heather:

You don't know it, but 20 years later I've come for you< laugh> I remember.< laugh>.

Darlene:

I'm gonna put no, because I feel like I would just forget< laugh>.

Hawa:

No,

Darlene:

No. There's like legitimately things that people have had to remind me of. I'm just like.

Heather:

That offended you.

Darlene:

Yeah. And I'll be like, oh yeah, that did happen.

Hawa:

No, my feelings be hurt.< laugh>.

Darlene:

So is that a yes?

Hawa:

That was, oh that was Heather. That was like absolutely. Darlene's, like, so you can hang on to it for years.< laugh>.

Elizabeth:

Okay. I wanna preface first by saying, even though I said I'm still mad at Lydia, she is not a real character< laugh>. Um, she's not real. Um, and so I don't think I'm, I don't think I hold grudges. I don't think so. I don't think I so. I don't think I do.< laugh>. No, I can forgive and move on.

Darlene:

< laugh>. Alright. Somebody insults a person you care about. How do you respond? I confront them. I stay quiet because I don't want to rock the boat. I insult them right back. Or I seethe with quiet rage until I snap and do something stupid,

Heather:

I probably insult them right back.

Elizabeth:

I feel like I would insult them right back< laugh> because yeah. Yeah. I, yes< laugh>. Cause I, and I feel like I would do it not as aggressively as this question makes it seem, but I'd more so, you know, if if I'm in the conversation which this question makes it seem, then yeah I would whatever snarky comment they said, just say it right back or you know, I don't think I'd be like confront makes it feel like you're gonna fight them. I don't think, yeah, I don't think I would do that. But I definitely would find, I would definitely find a retort. I think, you know, of course it depends on the situation, but yeah.

Darlene:

Yeah I think, I think I would do the same.

Hawa:

Yeah. So it's funny cuz the first time we talked about this quiz it was, it was a hard question for me cuz I'm just like, eh, I stayed quiet cuz I don't wanna rock the boat. But I think I would probably insult them right back or confront them. I'm torn between the two and I'd probably more so say confront than instead of insult them right back. I'd probably be like, that's my man's, what are you talking about?

Heather:

See I was torn with the like I seethe with quiet rage, but the snapping No, no. Like that's the long game There is right< laugh> but uh, the doing something stupid is not. Yeah.

Darlene:

Alright. What's your least favorite social situation? Going on a first date? When the waiters at the restaurant all sing Happy Birthday to you? Hanging out with a group of people you don't know well but they all know each other? Or not being able to hear what someone's saying but you've already said what three times, so now you just have to laugh and hope what they said was funny?

Hawa:

This is my favorite question of this whole quiz and

Multiple Laughers:

< laugh>

Hawa:

And you know, the, the, the not being able to hear what someone's saying happens to me so often.

Heather:

That's me every day.

Hawa:

So it's not even like my option for like wor- least favorite social situation. My least favorite social situation is hanging out with a group of people that you don't know well. But they all know each other because it's like, why am I here? What are y'all talking about? Um, you try to slide your way into the conversation and it just don't be working out. Like it's just awkward.

Heather:

I hate the happy birthday song<laugh>,

Hawa:

But you know, you only have to deal with that every so often.

Heather:

I suppose< laugh>.

Hawa:

< l augh>,

Darlene:

But it's very particularly when the waiter

Hawa:

Or you could just not tell them it's your birthday.

Heather:

Yeah.

Hawa:

But somebody probably will tell them anyway.

Darlene:

Hmm. I am hard of hearing too.<laugh>. I think it's hanging out with a group of people you don't know well, but they know each other. Cause that's always weird.

Elizabeth:

I mean, the one that's jumping out to me is going on a first date. And I think it's just because it's, I'm, I'm imagining that I don't, I've never met this person. So that just being one-on-one with someone I don't know is like, ugh. I'm sure it would work out, but I wouldn't be looking forward to it, right.

Darlene:

No

Hawa:

Ha!

Heather:

I got Mr. Bennet.

Darlene:

I got Mr. Bennet again.

Hawa:

I got Mr. Darcy and I don't remember who I got the first time. It says like, Mr. Darcy, you're socially awkward and occasionally quite rude. But underneath it all you, you have a good heart. You have never successfully expressed a feeling even once in your life. But you would do anything for the people you care about. Most importantly, you're able to learn from your mistakes and grow and, um, I feel so attacked.

Darlene:

At least. At least there's like room for growth like Mr. Bennet

Heather:

Mr. Bennet is just rude.

Darlene:

Yeah. Mr. Bennet is just a roast< laugh>. It's like you are wry, intelligent and probably bad with money. Not unlike the patriarch of the Bennet family. You often make poor decisions that you'll spend the rest of your life paying for< laugh>. But you've adopted a can't be bothered philosophy to deal with it all, which you lack in zeal you more than makeup for in witty banter. So at least we have witty banter.< laugh>.

Heather:

Yeah. I just, I'm not sure how we got that one< laugh>.

Darlene:

It's like

Heather:

How did we ever answer

Darlene:

Yeah. We didn't.

Hawa:

And then another thing is like there was nothing on here that touches on money for them to have gotten that response

Darlene:

Yeah. For them to like target us that way

Heather:

Yeah. I did talk about pensions a lot, which I feel like I'm more concerned about that than Mr. Bennet. And he's just like, whatever, I'll be dead.

Darlene:

Yeah.

Heather:

< l augh>.

Darlene:

So yeah, because he'll live a comfortable life while he's living.

Heather:

Right. He's fine. He just doesn't care about the girls.

Darlene:

Oh, okay. Well

Elizabeth:

< laugh>. So I got Elizabeth Bennet< laugh>, um, many want to say they're Elizabeth Bennet. But you, you are one of the few who actually is, you're clever, easygoing, fun to be around and well-read< laugh>.

Hawa:

< laugh>.

Elizabeth:

Um, you make snap judgments about people and often, um, must swallow your pride upon learning that you were in the wrong. However, you're always able to recognize your flaws and do better. Hmm. Good.<laugh>.

Hawa:

< laugh>.

Elizabeth:

No, I I do think that's true. Each episode we ask whether our book passes the Bechtel test. The Bechtel test asks whether a work features two female characters who talk to each other about something that doesn't involve men or boys. So does it pass?

Hawa:

We pretty much all agree that it did not, unless you feel like you have a different take on that.

Elizabeth:

Well, Um, based on another episode of this, I think some people know how I feel about the Bechtel test in general.<laugh> um,

Hawa:

I was waiting For you.< laugh>.

Elizabeth:

Oh,< l augh>. Yeah. Yeah. I I mean their marriage, uh, prospects are basically life and death for them. It's, it's, you know, and so it's just like to to question whether they're gonna talk about other, uh, men. Cuz this is, uh, you know, heterosexual society that we're assuming in this, in this book. Yeah. That's what they're going to talk about< l augh> like, it's like literally the, the, um, this, the book that's the plot of the book. So of course it does not pass. But again, I just want people to put it in your mind and question the Bechtel test. It's even worth thinking about<laugh>.

Heather:

I think it does pass the Bechtel test.

Hawa:

Oh really? Then tell us more.

Heather:

Well, I was going to say that like her conversations about her family.

Hawa:

Mm-hmm,

Heather:

Like, she talks about her concerns about Lydia for sure.

Hawa:

Okay, well then there's that.

Heather:

Mary never talks about men really. She's always just talking about morality and.

Multiple Laughers:

< laugh>.

Heather:

I don't know, whatnot. There's talk about fashion. There's the whole thing about Kitty's bonnet.

Darlene:

Mm.

Heather:

Where Lydia's gonna, like she stole Kitty's bonnet and then she's gonna redo it or something. Cuz it looks better on her when they go into town.

Darlene:

Well, I, yeah, I think the only one I'm remembering is when they go later and she buys like ugly ribbons and then< laugh> Lydia's like, don't worry about it. Like, I, I'll fix it, it'll look better. And everyone's like, okay.

Heather:

< laugh>. Yeah. So there's the talk about the bonnet

Hawa:

Little things.

Darlene:

Yeah.

Heather:

There's, there's moments.

Hawa:

The bar for this test is pretty low.

Darlene:

Yeah.

Heather:

It is.

Darlene:

But I, yeah, I I think it was just like even, cause I was trying to think, yes, she does talk about her family a lot, but it's always like in how ridiculous they are, how that would make them look in society. And then someone always ties it to marriage like Mr. Bennet did it. He's like, oh, Lizzie, like, is Lydia's ridiculousness, like causing men to like, like see you badly or something? Like, is that what this is about? And there was some other time, oh,< l augh> and u h, there was Elizabeth's zing where she's like, wow, they could not have acted any worse. Like even if they had been given these roles, like they literally out acted. And I think that had to do with how badly they looked in front of Bingley and Mr. Darcy. But yeah, I mean you're right. There are like small moments where yeah, it's not about a man at all.

Heather:

She and Jane talk about the Bingley sisters.

Hawa:

Mm-hmm.

Darlene:

Yeah.

Heather:

But yes, I mean most of it certainly centers on topics that concern the men because all of the economics in the book are driven by the men.

Hawa:

Yeah. Well I was wrong. Well that's it for this episode of These Books Made Me, join us next time when we'll discuss a book in which someone gets a slate smashed over their head. If you think you know which book we're tackling next Drop Us tweet. We're@pgcmls on Twitter and#TheseBooksMadeMe.