Bonus Episode: Councilwoman Deni Taveras

For our A Tree Grows in Brooklyn expert segment, we reached out to Prince George's County Councilwoman Deni Taveras to reflect on whether Smith's depiction of New York reflected any of her own experiences growing up in New York. The conversation morphed into a much broader discussion about affordable housing and public education and was simply too good to reduce to one segment. We're happy to offer the entire conversation here as our first bonus episode. 

Transcript

Heather 0:12

We gave you a little preview in Our Tree Grows in Brooklyn podcast, but some conversations are just too good to trim down in editing. So it's time for our first bonus episode.

Deni 0:25

Hi Heather, thank you for inviting me. I'm county council member and prince George's county vices chair, Deni Taveras I represent district two. And in my capacity as vice chair, I represent the whole county.

Heather 0:40

We are thrilled to have you on the podcast today, as we take a deep dive into A Tree Grows in Brooklyn. So in the book, the tenements in the neighborhood of Williamsburg, Brooklyn in 1912, come to life almost as a distinct character. Betty Smith offers vivid description of the mix of sounds and smells and colors that are part of the multi-ethnic neighborhood Francie lives in. I know you grew up in New York. Does this description ring true or resonate with how you experienced your neighborhood as a child?

Deni 1:13

Um, well in reading the caption, um, I would say yes and no. Uh, uh, we, we were, um, we were really, we, were not as diverse. Um, we, as, as the, maybe 1920, maybe 1912, Brooklyn, we were basically African- Americans and Latinos and where I grew up in Harlem. And, um, and I did enjoy the people, the sounds, the music, um, you know, the smells in terms of the great food that came out of all the restaurants. I mean, there is no shortage of good food in New York, um, at all, even, up, even from a hole in the wall, um, it's like the best food you've ever had. Um, and, and I just loved like the people sitting down playing dominoes, you know, in the middle of, um, the islands in the street in, in, on Broadway and, you know, but I also grew up so on that that's the positive side, right? But on the, on the more negative side, I also grew up in a New York that was also at the height of the crack epidemic and at the height of AIDS. And so we, we, you know, while I saw the children playing, you know, at the water at the water pumps at the, you know, at the fire hydrants, and that was a lot of fun, you know, and paying, people playing baseball in the middle of the street, it was also real that we had drug dealers standing almost at every single block in all four corners and, and the, the illicit activity happening in a lot of the crack buildings that primarily that I grew up in, um, you know, so you saw, you saw the negativity of how that negatively affected communities like mine, the, you know, the abuse and addiction of drugs and how that drove people to do certain things. And you're seeing people shoot up, urinate in buildings, you know, you know, the gun violence that comes with that, you know, and so on. And, and then you see the deter- I mean, we could talk about the deterioration of a solidly affordable housing and the boarded up buildings all around us. So, you know, it's, it was, it was both positive and negative, but I mean, for somebody who didn't know better, um, you know, you always were protected in that, in that, in that fear, if you came from a, a solid house where you knew you had somebody there every day, you know, at the end of your school day. And so for those that have stable lives, it was a protected environment. You didn't know, like, like people often say, oh, you didn't know you were poor when you grew up, because you had everything you needed, you had your three meals. And so those are kind of things that, you know, you kind of, you kind of don't sense it, and it's only until you step out and you see from outside. And then you're like, oh, wow. I survived that.

Heather 4:40

It's interesting to hear you say that, because I think, you know, in spite of this book being almost a hundred years before your childhood, Francie seems to have that same dichotomy, uh, she has this wonderful, strong female set of relatives with her mom and her aunts and her grandmother. But her neighborhood is really struggling with poverty and alcoholism, you know, Francie actually, a person tries to assault her at one point and her mother physically has to intervene to protect her. But at the same time she has these sort of vivid connections to her community, a very like, rich sensory experience of living there and being part of her neighborhood, which, like you said, the positivity and the negativity, and that's all part of her childhood.

Deni 5:29

Yeah. They hand- they're hand in hand and it's interesting, uh, you should mention that because I, I mean, I've, I, I remember being in precarious situations, there was like, I remember when I was 12 years old and I was gonna, I mean, I had like my family, I had like at least three or four family members that lived all on the same block in different apartments. So it was just like me jumping into my grandmother and my aunt go onto my cousins going, you know, it was like, we all lived like in the same neighborhood and even in the same building. And, uh, I was walking to, to one of my aunt places down the street. And I remember that I was in like a short t-shirt and shorts and I remember distinctly this man approaching me, asking me, oh, can I show him where a supermarket was or a grocery store, a bodega. And I'm like, if you know, New York city, there is a bodega at every single corner, you don't need to go anywhere. And then the man was dressed in a fur coat in the summer with, with, uh, with this round top hat, which anybody who's ever read. The pimp knows this is a pimp, but I had never seen that in my life. I had never encountered that, but I knew my spidey senses came on really quick, just as a man, you've got to run away from, and you got to get away because this man came to hunt, you know? And so, and so I was streetwise enough to protect myself from that kind of incident or, or incidents where you, you sense that somebody was trying to do you harm, you know, sexually molest you or something to that nature, even from trust, even from trusted individuals in the community. And, and so in that sense, I was able to always be protective and always, you know, be respectful, but at the same time, no, no I'm going back home and that's okay. But thank you. But no, um, and so, so I was able, but there are some people who, you know, who, whose lives were traumatized because they didn't maybe have the same sense of protection or, you know, or awareness of what was going on. And so it's sad, but it's, it is, it's real.

Heather 8:00

Absolutely. Another issue in the book um, that I wanted to talk to you about is public education. So that's a social issue tackled in the book. Francie initially goes to her neighborhood public school, which Smith describes as quote,"3000 children crowded into this ugly brutalizing school that had facilities for only 1000." Later on, she sees this other school in a more affluent neighborhood and kind of falls in love with this school. She wants to go there. Her dad falsifies her address so that she can transfer. Does the neighborhood, a child grows up and still have impacts on educational outcomes and how much progress do you think we've made in the last hundred years in terms of equitable access to education?

Deni 8:48

Whew! Now, that's a question for you.

Heather 8:50

Asking the big questions here!

Deni 8:52

You are. I mean, I can, I can share with you my experience in New York. Um, my, my New York experience was similar in the sense of that. We were exceedingly in overcrowded spaces. We were, there were 40-50 to a class in my high school. Um, in my, in my, uh, elementary school, we were, there were so many and I went to many, several elementary schools, but I remember in one particular elementary school, in the north side of the city where the Dominicans were arriving in Thrones, there were so many of us that we had to share one room, both the fourth and fifth grade class together. Um, and I remember distinctly that we had one in one classroom, um, in another school that I went to, where I ended up, you know, finishing my, my, you know, growing up there in Harlem, that we had a teacher that would make us do things that I, I mean, for all intents and purposes were illegal, you know, like kneeling on rice, holding books up in the air, kind of, you know, commando, you know, style. Um, I mean, I'm sure the ones found out the, the teacher was probably fired, but, um, but it was, you know, it's, it was, it's tough because how we were a rambunctious group. I mean, I also remember that in elementary school, I remember that in fifth grade we were, we were forced to be made to watch a film of the effects of heroin, um, on, on the community. And, um, on certain individuals, since I saw that movie never been able to look at a meal and throw an arm. I was completely traumatized to this day. Every time my grandmother had to inject herself for diabetes, I left the room. Um, and I still look away when I'm getting shot. You know, I just can't, it's not in me. Um, but I, but at the same time, I would say that I, so that again, that's on the negative, but on the positive is that I met some of the most amazing, amazing, amazing caring teachers, um, that I've ever encountered in my life, you know, and some of them are still in my life to this day, to this day. And, um, I still talk to them like all the time. Um, and, uh, they are people who introduced books like, a Tree Grows in Brooklyn. And I was just talking about it with somebody like oh, how, how we were made to read books that were really creative and ethnic and diverse in those spaces and how we cherish, you know, how it was so rewarding for us to see ourselves in literature for the first time. Um, and, uh, and so, and maybe because I was in a school that, um, I was maybe because I was in a classroom where we were the honors kids, they really honed in on us to try to put us through, through private schools. So we were made to train, to apply to and take the SAT exam so that we could go to Andover Phillips Academy and these privileged schools that would pull us out of our neighborhoods. And, uh, and some of us survived that and some of us didn't, uh, frankly, um, but, um, but we, we, my, I had, uh, I had been um, accepted to Andover by my grandmother, didn't understand the importance of that. And so I ended up going to like a local high school, but despite that, I felt that, um, you know, even in the spaces that I was in, the teachers were so vested in me that I would be able to end up in an Ivy league school and et cetera, going on to college, but I would say at least in New York, I think the transformation of the school system, and I mean, this may sound a little controversial, um, through, through, um, through Bloomberg and Klein was so transformative that I do think, it, it, um, made a significant difference because it drove schools as a marketplace. Um, so if they were popular, they stayed open if they were not, they closed. And, and if they were effective, they stayed open. If they were not effective, they closed. And that's really controversial because unions don't want to hear that, you know, and that's very difficult conversation to have politically, but all I can say is that given the high number of the Dominicans that are there in that area in New York and how well they've done for themselves financially in terms of educational outcomes, um, I'm not saying that it's perfect, but I do see that we have significant improvements over time, um, even for students of color. Um, you know, I still feel like when I look at areas like Prince George's County, we still have so much more to go and still have so much more to learn. Um, like hiring diversified teachers, that the students can identify with, um, providing culturally sensitive curriculums. So, so Latinos and African-Americans can actually feel like they're a part of the process and a part of the curriculum right now they're not, you know, and as a result of that, I think that a lot of our youth feel less grounded here. And if you don't know who you are, where you stand, you know, you're bound to fall for anything and anyone, and that can breed problems in the future. And so I think we want to do better and right by our youth. So we, I would say that we still have a better way to go. And as whether parents are still falsifying addresses to send kids to better schools, I think as you can see this since the beginning of time, cause I do see as I, so I do see that happening consistently and, and people do have opportunities here to send their children to private school. You know, we've got several schools here, um, but it's rare for people to know, especially first generation to understand how to work that process so that their child may have a better opportunity to enter into a specialized school and have better options.

Heather 16:21

Finally, the book focuses on how systemic issues and the grind of trying to get by can keep people trapped in poverty and prevent them from doing better than their parents before them, or achieving their American dream. Can you talk a little bit about how access to safe and affordable housing is tied into broader social issues?

Deni 16:40

I mean, definitely. I mean, here's the thing, I think that, um, and this is a hard question in the sense of like, it, it's, it's very personal to me, right. Um, having grown up where I did in Harlem, uh, literally everybody I grew up with is still there. They are still living in the same apartment for the last 60 years, and we're still good for two generations deep if somebody were to die and it's still rent controlled, you know, and while the apartments there are going for maybe$2,500 a month or more that's in me is exorbitant rents that were, that people are paying. The reality is that my family is in that they're struggling to come up with$700 a month, you know? And, and that's a problem because you know, what I see is that people can say, well, living like that is a choice. And but the thing is, is hard to see yourself in a different environment if you've never seen anything else. So if you, if all you see is somebody struggling, like you living on welfare, like you getting SSI checks like you, um, food stamps like you and you live like what I call the 10 block experience here, it would be the 10 mile experience and everything in your world is within that 10 blocks. That's what you live. And it took me to literally walk 20 blocks and go from where I grew up to Columbia university, 20 blocks down the street and say, wow, they've got trash cans. Wow. They've got trees wow they don't have a lot of homeless people on the corners. Wow they've got clean streets. And when you, when you start to ask the questions, why is somebody invested here in the city than invested here? But not in my neighborhood, not in my building, not in my, you know, main fare, main thoroughfare, then you've got to ask the questions, what's the difference? And when you see the people who are walking the streets, well, my area is black and brown and this area is predominantly white. Then you recognize what the difference is, you know? And, and, and so it does make you think, and it's like, well, if I could enter these spaces, you know, the thing is, you know, some people it's, again, it's about not losing yourself in that process because some people may, may become malleable. If you don't know who you are, you, you try to fit yourself in to this new white culture that you're entering in so you could better fit there and try to forget your past, or you figure out, Hey, I know where I'm from. Um, I'm proud of that too, but how can I better able to make that connection between these two worlds, right? Um, and, and try to elevate the conversation within communities, like the ones that I grew up in. And so I would say, at least for me, um, I'm the type of person that I moved into a community. That's similar to the one I grew up in because I feel that I want to make, have that conversation and elevate that conversation. But, and the reason why I didn't do it back home is because even Jesus had to leave Jerusalem to become a prophet. Sometimes if you, you know, if you tell your family what you think they need to do, nobody listens to you. But if a stranger comes in and tells them the exact same thing, they're like, oh, that's a good idea. So that's just the nature of why I decided to, to, you know, sink my roots into Prince George's County in particular in the Langley Park area. But I do think that another issue is that with the browning of America, what I see is a complete disinvestment from corporate America and from the way that it used to be when it was, when it was a response to helping, um, Italians and Irish coming out of World War Two, um, to kind of fit back in kind of get themselves elevated and get themselves integrated, you know, corporate America doubled down on infrastructure, doubled down on unionization, doubled down on everything to contribute heavily, to again, infrastructure, u m, education, all of it. And with the browning of America, there's been a complete disinvestment in that. And I think that as a result of that, this is the first time in the history of this company, of this country, where we can see that the children are worse off, worse off than their parents, because that's truly never happened in the past. You know, that's in that to me, is it's truly sad? It should not be.

Heather 22:15

It definitely is. I want to go back real quick to something that you mentioned, um, about, you know, the Irish and the Italian coming back and unions being a driver of pushing corporate America to invest in infrastructure and sort of paving the path better for those groups. That's a real theme in the book. You know, her dad is union and when he loses his place in the union due to his alcoholism, their world sort of crumbles, um, because the union takes care of so much in that community, they take care of the politics. They take care of the jobs, they take care of everything, uh, to the degree that things do improve there. How much do you think this is also tied to the labor movements decline in this country?

Deni 23:05

Well, again, that's the whole issue again, that, that unions were so strong because unions created that middle class, but with disinvestment or corporations taking it abroad and dismantling, um, the unions that existed here, I mean, cause you can't really have a union without jobs, right? So that's the thing. I mean, as these companies are choosing these tax brackets where they're taking their money outside, when they're looking to do free market development outside the United States...

Heather 23:40

They lower wages, outside of the US.

Deni 23:43

Exactly. They're paying lower wages outside of the US I mean, I remember when textiles were still in the U S I used, I used to work in a sweat shop in New York. Um, uh, and that I was to, um, oh, what is that? Uh, Senator, uh, his, his, his dad was one of the founding members of the textile company, textile union in New York. And, and so unions are super strong because they're the, they're the last frontier to having a solid pension for retirement, especially for the poorest of the poor. And without that, um, I mean, I get goosebumps thinking what's going to happen. You know, now, like what, um, it's interesting, you should mention because I'm actually tackling this very issue in legislation for displaced workers. Um, and this is a 32 BJ bill, um, where we are looking at, um, right now, what we're seeing is that these com-, these companies come in through the switching of political administrations and they'll either kick out everybody and start fresh with lower wages or keep these people, and then find out how the business is actually run through these people. And when it's convenient for them, they'll bring in that other people to train the new slate, kick the people out again, to bring in cheaper wages, people for a cheaper wages. And just, and, and to the end of it, all these people may be working here in the county for 30 years, with zero pension, zero pension, they're 65 or almost 70 years old with no pension to name up. And so I'm like, I'm literally floored. And I'm like, if they're only saving grace is to receive social security, God help us because social security, anything on a pay anybody's bills, you know, and, and I've seen, and I've encountered situations where a senior woman was abandoned by her 80 year old husband, for whatever reasons it may have been. And, and she, and he, and they took all the money and all she had to save herself was$700 a month. And so we had to round up per family go about this, you know, all kinds of ways to get her new apartment paid off, switch apartments, something to she can afford. Uh, but it, it was scary. I mean, a woman that is 80 years old, it's scary and God, God help us all. But if we're not preparing to prevent something like that from happening, that'll be us.

Heather 26:41

It definitely feels like we're swinging back towards not having a safety net or like a social safety net anymore.

Deni 26:48

Exactly, That's because these companies don't give a damn. I mean, when you have a company paying$0 in taxes that's a problem and people are doing major money, transfers and taxes to the 1%. That's a problem. I mean, I just know that when I did my taxes, um, for the last several years after the, the, the Trump tax cuts, I mean the level of money that I saw going out the window and going into the coffers of the government, it was just outstanding. So it is troubling for me because I do see a lot of systemic issues, um, that are keeping us trapped. And then there's, and I'm not going to say that there is a portion of it. I'm not going to, I'm not going to deny that there is a portion of it that is, um, mental, but it's kind of, it's kind of programmed. It's like the fly that it's like the fly that if you have a, if you have the fly in the jar and you have a top, and then the fly just gets used to just hitting the top of the, of the cap. But once you take off the cap, the fly doesn't fly out because it's so accustomed, that's the same issue. It's customization, it's, you know, indoctrination or whatever you want to call it. And so it's thinking, how do you get out of that jar? And for me, I think it's experiencing new things, um, engaging with new folks and, and looking out what else is possible because, um, I still experienced that. I still experienced this whole idea of, is it because I've never seen anybody really. Maybe now I've started to meet more people that make over a hundred thousand dollars. But that to me was not real. I never knew a lot of people that made over a hundred thousand. So, and I'm like, if it's not real to folks here, could it be real to, you know, as we elevate is like, you know, what about 250? What about 300? What about 500? Have I met somebody that's ever made 600? You know, and that's, and that's what I'm talking about. You know, that I just saw a job posting for, for a salary range from 600 to$700,000. And I'm like, who's that, you know what I'm saying? I'm like, I don't know. I don't know anybody in that. And so it's, and it builds up people that walking around those$600,000 circles, God bless them, you know, but I'm like, I want to find out who they are, but I want to do it from here from Langley park. And I want to be able to bring, I want to bring those opportunities to Langley park the same way we want to do it to every community that's experiencing the same thing. So the same way I want to bring it here. I want to bring it to Suitland, Capital heights, district heights. You know, we want to be able to give those people, vision, opportunities.

Heather 29:46

Right, it feels like a different world, but it shouldn't be a different world for anyone you should to have entry. And yeah, it's, it's, it's interesting to now see this book from the perspective of it almost being a cautionary tale, you know, a hundred years ago, you would think, well, we've made so much progress, but are we in danger of falling back to something even, you know, that we couldn't have imagined 20 years ago?

Deni 30:17

And here is a thing, I mean, I don't know. And I just, and I'll tell you, I'll tell you that, um, I was reading Freakonomics and, um, you know, the, the first edition and, and I always, you know, had the suspicion. And then I saw, and, you know, given the fact that I grew up around the crack epidemic, the impact that crack had in our communities. But I remember, us, seeing the, the documentary on Netflix that just came out and somebody said, you've got to watch it. You have got to watch it. And I'm like, you know, it was somebody that I respected and I said, okay, I will. And I just wanted to cry literally because the role of the federal government and allowing, um, crack to enter our communities, basically I was looking in, in Freakonomics, they highlight that the African-American, um, human development index day at the, that basically all social determinants health education, um, every social determinant for, for African-Americans was on the upswing from the sixties to the height of the seventies and it's just as, as a culminated to the highest point it had ever been then crack head and everything went down. Um, so we would've been having a different conversation, essentially had crack, not existed in our communities. It just would have been night and day. Um, and I think that, that that's when people start these conspiracy theories. And then when you look at a film like this, where they, when they show improve the, the, the conspiratorial nature of CIA and the federal government in participating essentially in the distribution of crack in the country, you know, it's hard to, to, to be able to look and see and say, you know, um, you know, does America care about black and brown, you know, in the way it should. Um, and then when you, and even amongst ourselves, Uh, there's a book of, I forgot the name of the title of the book, but it's basically talks about how we, as people of color doubled down and participated in the criminalization of our communities, by doubling down on wanting more police wanting, you know, more stringent, you know, Rockefeller laws, et cetera. And so, and the, and the consequences that, that happen in terms of disparaging and the disenfranchisement of our border of our voter base. So those are the, those are the challenges. I mean, and I think, um, now we're opening up our eyes. Now things are on the upswing. And as long as we stay focused on, um, empowerment, self-determination, I think that we can rise above, but it's not going to be easy because it never is when you're starting from the bottom and starting your way up.

Heather 33:30

Well, Councilwoman, I would like to thank you so very much for your time today. This has been a delightful and eye- opening talk. Um, and we really appreciate you being willing to participate in this, and I took way too much of your time. So I apologize for that.

Deni 33:48

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for inviting me. This was like I said, this was a heavy topic. Um, but I do think we have to remain optimistic, um, because I do think that even, even in the, in light of the things that, that we read in this book, I do think that we are, there ae, there are still people who care. There's still people who can do and, and even, and we all with intentionality can make a difference. So I'd like to leave that on a more positive note than the conversation that we just had, but I want to say thank you for the invitation. Call me back anytime.

Heather 34:33

Thank you so much. Have a wonderful rest of your day. Thank you. Thanks for joining us for this special bonus episode of These Books Made Me. We'll see you next episode!