Forever was a real headscratcher for us. We *think* Judy Blume was trying to disseminate information about teen sexual health in an easily digestible way but we wanted to check in with an expert. In this frank conversation, we untangle the complex dynamics of the book's central relationship and contrast the sexual health services of the past with the ways teen access health services today. Our expert thinks this book may be a miss for the teens of today but sees a role for podcasts (!) in sexual health education in 2024. Join us for a deep dive into consent, STI prevention, healthy relationships, and responsible authorship.
These Books Made Me is a podcast about the literary heroines who shaped us and is a product of the Prince George's County Memorial Library System podcast network. Stay in touch with us via Instagram @thesebooksmademe or on Twitter @PGCMLS, with #TheseBooksMadeMe or by email at TheseBooksMadeMe@pgcmls.info. For recommended readalikes and deep dives into topics related to each episode, visit our blog at https://pgcmls.medium.com/.
Forever was a real headscratcher for us. We *think* Judy Blume was trying to disseminate information about teen sexual health in an easily digestible way but we wanted to check in with an expert. In this frank conversation, we untangle the complex dynamics of the book's central relationship and contrast the sexual health services of the past with the ways teen access health services today. Our expert thinks this book may be a miss for the teens of today but sees a role for podcasts (!) in sexual health education in 2024. Join us for a deep dive into consent, STI prevention, healthy relationships, and responsible authorship.
These Books Made Me is a podcast about the literary heroines who shaped us and is a product of the Prince George's County Memorial Library System podcast network. Stay in touch with us via Instagram @thesebooksmademe or on Twitter @PGCMLS, with #TheseBooksMadeMe or by email at TheseBooksMadeMe@pgcmls.info. For recommended readalikes and deep dives into topics related to each episode, visit our blog at https://pgcmls.medium.com/.
Reading Forever by Judy Blume left us with a lot of questions. In this special bonus episode of these Books Made Me we're talking to an expert in teen sexual health. We hope you'll enjoy this interview with a peer health educator. All right, if you can just introduce yourself.
Speaker 2:Hi, my name is Cora and I'm a second year undergraduate student at Vanderbilt University in Nashville, tennessee, but I grew up here in Prince George's County and you had a job working for Planned Parenthood.
Speaker 2:Can you talk a little bit about what your role was with Planned Parenthood has a program called Peer Health Educators, and not just in DC but in multiple areas. So the PPMW of DC worked with the Planned Parenthood of Charlotte and other peer educators around the country to create programming that would serve to educate our peers on sexual health matters, relationship matters, what it looks like to be in a healthy relationship, what some red flags are, what Planned Parenthood provides, birth control methods, sdi prevention and testing methods and overall, just to create a more open conversation about sexual health and romantic relationships.
Speaker 1:So I think Judy Blume was trying to make something digestible for teens that focused on sexual health and romantic relationships by writing this book Forever. How well do you think she succeeded in that?
Speaker 2:Well, the relationship that's modeled in Forever is not great. There's constantly pressure, even after they have sex, from Michael. There's constantly this sort of power dynamic that has been modeled for centuries in heteronormative relationships that we're trying to sort of break down today. And in the sexual health component like, she spends chapter 15 talking about um, the main character's visit to a planned parenthood to get consulting on birth control, and she really wants to go on the pill. And she talks about how there was like a group counseling session where they gave all this information and then there was private counseling where they asked some questions, which were not all the questions that you would probably be asked today. You'd probably be asked more about.
Speaker 2:You know, do you have migraines with aura Like? If so, that affects what kind of hormone you should avoid when considering birth control. And there's a walkthrough of the physical pelvic exam, which I think was very helpful. It may feel a little bit strange and out of place to put it into a story, but I think the walkthrough can be helpful. However, I feel that doctors today generally, at least at Planned Parenthood, are a little bit less invasive and not only tell you should try to relax, but say this is how it should feel and if it doesn't tell us, because that's not normal and sort of stressing that aspect of like you shouldn't feel pain.
Speaker 1:Do you think that that version of a visit to Planned Parenthood tracks with what a visit to Planned Parenthood would look like for a teen if they went today?
Speaker 2:I think somewhat. I think the format of group counseling and then private counseling may still be a thing at some Planned Parenthoods, where they give sort of information in this larger groups setting so that it creates this environment of this is not shameful and this is a, you know, a normal and regular thing that should be talked about. But I think, based on how the Planned Parenthood workers are portrayed, I think they are much different today. Everyone I've come into contact with who works at Planned Parenthood is much more supportive and sort of aware of the feelings involved and talks more about that explicitly and how to sort of break down the stigma and shame to make sure consent is clear and the patient or student is actually comfortable with what's going on.
Speaker 1:So Catherine gets to Planned Parenthood because her grandmother gives her some information about Planned Parenthood and makes it clear that this is an option for her. Is that a typical way that most young people find their way to Planned Parenthood?
Speaker 2:Definitely not. I think hearing it from two generations removed is not very typical, especially with the political climate today. I think one of the goals of the peer educator program is to make social media presence larger. We helped run a social media account and tried to get information out digitally, which I think is how a lot of teens receive it nowadays is through sponsored ads, through Instagram or referral from friends, or actually a lot of colleges, especially private colleges, make it clear that Planned Parenthood is an option or they have a center at the actual college. That's pretty similar to Planned Parenthood or partners with Planned Parenthood. So it's much more common to hear it from either the same generation or one generation removed, rather than directly from a family source.
Speaker 1:When Catherine goes to Planned Parenthood she is still a minor, but she does not need parental consent to be there. Is that an accurate depiction of how an appointment at Planned Parenthood would work for a teen today?
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely. I don't remember. There is an age where you don't need a parent, and I think it may be 14 or 15. I can't quite remember, but it's kind of like if you're allowed at a public pool alone, then you're probably allowed to go to Planned Parenthood and have everything that's discussed there, everything you do there, completely confidential real focus on preventing teen pregnancy?
Speaker 1:Is that the primary focus for most teens going to Planned Parenthood? Should it be, and how well did the book hold?
Speaker 2:up on that front. I would say it is definitely the primary consideration for teens who visit Planned Parenthood, which is part of why the people who visit Planned Parenthood are disproportionately female, and that should definitely shift, like a lot. Most of our peer education was about healthy relationships, both romantic, sexual and completely platonic, like family relationships and STIs, which is incredibly important to focus on, because if your main focus is pregnancy, like Catherine, you may go on the pill or some sort of birth control um and then discontinue a birth control method that was preventing STIs, like using condoms.
Speaker 1:Which I think is what happens in the book is that they start with condoms as their primary birth control method and of course he complains about them and pressures her to look into other methods, which she does in close to Planned Parenthood. But after she decides on another birth control method, it seems like they abandon the condoms pretty quickly and it's never really brought up again. He also has a history of contracting an STI. Specifically, he got gonorrhea from his first sexual encounter with a girl on the beach. He did not disclose that to Catherine until she found out via making a joke about VD. Is that appropriate in a relationship?
Speaker 2:Absolutely not. That violates consent, because consent needs to be informed, and if you're not offering that information and being transparent with your partner, then you are not asking for consent. And that is something that Planned Parenthood teaches a lot today and something that I was surprised wasn't brought up in her appointment Um, her private consultant she was. She said, um like so what birth control methods have you been using? And she said, oh, we've been using a rubber condom. And she says and you're unsatisfied with this method? And she's like I don't know.
Speaker 1:And so I think for context he blames the condom when he can't finish the first time that they have sex and then it's a very unsatisfying first encounter for both of them. I think so with STIs. This book was written 50 years ago and Judy Blume did include in a preface that had she written it later she obviously would have focused more on HIV AIDS prevention, but in the 70s it just wasn't front of mind as a concern for teenage relationships. Michael did have the experience with gonorrhea. He says he was treated but then he doesn't disclose it, which you've said is problematic. What is the sort of healthy relationship model for disclosure of previous sexual encounters, sexually transmitted infections and diseases? What would sort of be the healthy way of approaching a new sexual relationship with someone as a teenager?
Speaker 2:I think that's one of the harder questions, just because people are so afraid especially teens of it ruining the mood and they're so focused on how they are perceived and how they're coming across that they don't want to risk that by disclosing information that is unsexy unsexy and but that that is a hump that people need to get over and that is something we need to talk about and that needs to be modeled in media like books and shows is, before anything, before you kiss someone, like like, if you have HSV-1 or if you get cold sores and that is something that's not talked about at all, despite over 50% of the population having HSV-1.
Speaker 1:And that's herpes simplex virus.
Speaker 2:One yes, and which is oral herpes correct? It's commonly known as oral herpes. It can appear other places, but it is most commonly found on or inside the mouth and usually it is only spread when there is a lesion, but can be spread when there aren't lesions. So that information should be disclosed, especially, um, because if you meet someone on a dating app and you go on a date and like you have no idea that could be immunocompromised or not disclosing that you have HSV one to your partner like before you kiss, like if it's about to happen, say like, just to be clear, I have this, um, this is how it's typically spread, and then letting the partner make a decision from there. And similarly for for any sexual encounters, like you should talk, have a talk before anything progresses to any sexual activity about you know when the last time you got tested was, and ideally you should get tested like at least once a year, depending on how many partners you have.
Speaker 1:And because there are STIs that can be dormant for a while before showing up on tests. Is that correct?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's correct and, like for HSV-1 and 2, if you don't request a blood test, they often won't automatically test for them and they won't, you know, show up unless you like, have lesions and they swab the lesions. So you also want to be clear on, when you go get STI testing, what exactly you're getting tested for, what's not covered, and be clear with your partner what the specifics of your test results, and there's also STIs, where a partner can have it without knowing and be asymptomatic, but then pass a symptomatic case to the other partner.
Speaker 1:Is that?
Speaker 2:accurate. Yes, that is also accurate.
Speaker 1:How has that well backtrack? So obviously medical treatments for a lot of STIs have improved a lot in the 50 years since Judy Blume wrote this book. Again, hiv wasn't even on her radar at the time and it went from you know within a decade of writing this becoming pretty much an automatic death sentence for somebody if you got that diagnosis, to now a very treatable thing with PrEP that many people are able to live healthy lives with an undetectable viral load. But how does that blur the lines around consent and disclosure? Now that there are treatments and herpes the same way you can have sort of symptom-free it's managed Do you need to disclose? What sort of calculations do you make about disclosure with a new partner?
Speaker 2:If you have a history of an STI but it's treated and it's, you have an undetectable load or you're in some type of remission or yeah, we talked about this a lot in Planned Parenthood and it it absolutely still should be brought up, even though it's difficult, because, again, there is still always a chance. And having that conversation and starting the foundation of a sexual relationship with open communication in general is a very great way to start off in general is a very great way to start off and like, even if you are, you know 99.9% sure that you won't pass anything to them, still talk to them about it. At the very least you are informing someone else, even if immediately they're like turned off or scared or run away, like, yes, that sucks, but they were probably not the right partner for you and they're better off for having known the information that you gave them and the transparency they gave them, because they will carry that forward in their future relationships. Yeah, so, even though it is you may feel like it should be a calculation, it still should be disclosed.
Speaker 1:There's also in the book several other moments where the information conveyed might be things that teens worry about with sex. But Catherine and Michael's sort of interpretation of things maybe isn't entirely accurate and then it doesn't quite get corrected in the book. One of the interludes that we were kind of scratching our heads about is that when they are preparing to have intercourse for the first time, they comment that they know that she might bleed from that because she has not, to her knowledge, had her hymen break yet. They get very concerned about this to the degree that they won't do it on the bed because they're afraid of staining it. So they get a towel and put it down on the floor on an area rug with a busy pattern, so that if she bleeds through the towel no one will notice the stains.
Speaker 1:We were kind of laughing at that because it seemed like they were imagining like hemorrhaging happening when the hymen is broken. But that's not really what happens. So do you think that there's a responsibility of the author in a situation like that? She's presented something that might be a very authentic misconception by teens, but then it's not corrected, other than that we don't see that she like hemorrhages out all over the floor, but then they keep using towels and having sex on the floor, which is really weird. Do you think that the author has a responsibility to somehow insert accurate information in there, or is her responsibility to depicting something faithful to the mindset of the characters? Do you have an opinion on that?
Speaker 2:I think you can still be faithful to the mindset of the characters and like it seems almost unfaithful to not mention it afterwards, because if it was such a big concern, catherine's obviously going to think about it afterwards like, oh, that is not what I expected. Even if she doesn't outright say it to Michael, she is still thinking it common misconceptions and then sort of sweep over it without saying what actually happened or making it clear that that was a misconception in the first place.
Speaker 1:As a young adult today, a book like this. Do you think that it holds any appeal for people the age of the main characters to read, or do you think it's too dated to hold any appeal at all? Do you think that there's any kind of like expiration date that should be placed on a book that includes really quite detailed medical information?
Speaker 1:I mean, I've never read a book where you have a chapter that is just a pelvic exam. You have a chapter that is just a pelvic exam, but there's some value to depicting that in a frank way, because that probably at the time kids didn't have internet. They wouldn't have been able to learn about that other than through someone that had experienced one, and obviously in the 70s probably a lot of women weren't comfortable talking to their daughters about that. Catherine has the privilege of having a very like, progressive and open-minded grandmother and parents, but that probably wasn't the case for a lot of teens. So do you feel like there's some type of expiration date on a book like this or do you feel like it holds up for some facet of the young adult experience?
Speaker 2:the young adult experience I can see that it would probably be appealing for preteens and sort of younger adolescents going into puberty. But beyond that, I do feel that one the conversation around sex has become a lot more open, and not necessarily always in the best ways. There is a lot of sexual activity, you know, modeled in TV shows and even video games and movies.
Speaker 1:And we did sort of bring that up because we heard that they were looking to make a Netflix series about this book. I mean, it would be a, I think, a loose adaptation I think they were. It had been assigned to a director who was planning to rework it from a the perspective of two black teens and at one point we were talking about like well, what, what is, what would that look like? Now? Because this is doesn't line up, you know, with modern anything, and we, we came to the conclusion that it would look like euphoria. But you know, I think, again from what you're saying, like that would not be the healthiest set of behaviors depicted, but maybe somewhat more accurate to some teens' experience than this book would be, at this point, more accurate to some teens experience than this book would be.
Speaker 2:at this point I think I think that's correct.
Speaker 2:I don't think that this book models very many common experiences among young adults and teens today, and I think it is shows, unfortunately, you know, shows like Euphoria and 13 Reasons why do depict some more likely experiences, but still usually unrealistic and either sort of well, usually dramatized.
Speaker 2:And I think it's important that there is media that, if they represent inaccurate or experiences that are so experiences with a subject that is really taboo, there should be some sort of like disclaimer or educational content or just something included to make it clear that you know this is not what everyone goes through and is something important to learn about from your own perspective and what it would mean to you. And I think that's that individuality is always often lost in in sexual experience depictions in modern media and past media. So I worry that the teens who would read this book would probably like most likely not take the information to heart as much because it wouldn't align with their modern day experiences, whereas younger kids might internalize it more because it's something they haven't experienced yet and they like think about and that could be absolutely harmful if there's there aren't proper disclaimers or footnotes or corrections, because you're feeding misinformation to those who are uninformed.
Speaker 1:What are the best ways for a teen to get accurate sexual health information today in a way that is somewhat private for them? Because I think that this book did serve that purpose, probably for a lot of girls in the seventies, where, even if they couldn't check the book out, they were reading it in the stacks to get information that they didn't have a way to get otherwise. What would something similar be today? That would be an accurate way for kids to get information that is centered on the teen experience and, you know, not like WebMD.
Speaker 2:Honestly, I think one main medium that could be used more is podcasting. There are several great podcasts by like sex therapists and pelvic floor physical therapists on Spotify and Amazon music and those are typically pretty private histories. You don't often have your parents looking at your Spotify history in your own account. I'm not even sure how to do that with a shared family plan and most teens listen to so much music and podcasting anyway that it would be too much information for any sort of helicopter parent to sift through. And advertisements for that on social media would be really helpful.
Speaker 2:I think the sponsored ads on social media like I've been seeing a ton about PrEP recently and usually they're really short and they give you know a snippet of information and have an area for you to learn more. But there are so many of them that you see that like it adds, it compiles information together over time, um and de-stigmatizes the subject. Subject and I mean this isn't as private. But I think it is important to have these conversations in schools, which I know is heavily controversial. But opening that line of communication or at least giving resources for students to ask questions and creating an environment where students feel safe to ask questions is really important so that students can get help outside of the home when you know they might not have the means of transportation or the time to otherwise go to somewhere like Planned Parenthood and get counseling.
Speaker 1:One thing I've noticed with all the ads about PrEP and I've seen them too, I think it's we've been commenting recently how often the ads are about PrEP when we're watching shows on apps that we don't have premium subscriptions to, but all of those ads seem to be focused on people in their like, late 20s or 30s, who are, you know, they're living a nice life and they're going to clubs and they're, like you know, meeting someone at a paint and sip, and so they're kind of depicting this like very rosy, like nice life, but everyone is a lot older.
Speaker 1:Of depicting this like very rosy, like nice life, but everyone is a lot older, and so, at least to me, it seems like those ads are targeting a very different demographic. Is there, is there, stuff specific to teens being done, or is that something where marketing folks are kind of scared because it's minors? You know it is a political hot button now sexual health. Do you see that there are targeted ads for teens? I mean, as a young adult and a teen, are you seeing ads that are targeted to you? Are you seeing the same kind of generic ads that I'm seeing that are you know, they're really focusing on the 30, something who is living their best life with prep, you know.
Speaker 2:I'm seeing a mix of both. So I have seen some some of the same ads with teens, but I think that is also definitely something that marketing avoids. I think there are maybe sneakier ways or subtler ways that they could make it clear to teens watching the ads that like this is something that affects them, and you know places that are already under fire do also provide that advertising, like Planned Parenthood They'll send out, you know, sponsored posts of just information, like not selling anything, and I think like that's really important. But I think there are also some some people are still excluded from that based on their social media usage, what they look up online. That can reinforce some cultural stigmas, I think. So there may be better ways of advertising on billboards or something that's not personalized ads based on some algorithm.
Speaker 1:You mentioned that school-based sexual education is really important. Can you talk a little bit about what your experience with school-based sexual education as a kid growing up in a pretty progressive blue area where it's maybe not as politically fraught as it might be somewhere else?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it wasn't great. I went to Prince George's County's public schools and in middle school we had like a unit in health class in sixth and seventh grade and we were supposed to in eighth grade. Like we had to get our parents to sign the form, which is another problem, like parents have to consent for their students to receive sexual education, but we didn't even do that unit in eighth grade. Um, in sixth grade I remember watching some Mickey mouse video from the fifties about periods and like all the boys sniggering and um. I remember our textbook in seventh grade had a very heavy focus on STIs. Um, which I thought was was great Um.
Speaker 2:But there is also a question that I don't know the answer to of you know how to most effectively teach that without fear mongering? And a lot of the textbook was like fear mongering. Um, and I think STIs were definitely a heavier focus than pregnancy, which I also think is good Um, because it sort of balances, you know, the concerns that most, most people initially have um growing up in the U S? Um in high school I took my gym credit and health credit over the summer and I remember pretty much the same thing, like being told you know to wear some sort of physical barrier, although, like, female condoms weren't really mentioned and there wasn't really there weren't really given alternatives to just the regular condom. And there was there was talk in the textbook about like, like peer pressure and not giving into pressure, but there wasn't really a specific address of the power dynamics that go into sexual pressure and consent in a sexual or romantic context, and I think that is something that's extremely important for minors to learn in schools.
Speaker 1:All right. Thank you so much for appearing on the podcast today and talking to us a little bit about your experience as a young adult sexual health educator. Thank you. Well, that's it for this bonus episode of these Books Made Me. Join us next time when we'll discuss a book in which our main character works in her family's motel. If you think you know which book we're tackling next, follow us on Instagram we are at these Books Made Me and drop a comment on our guests. Our next read post.