Oh Judy Blume, you are officially our most frequently covered author on TBMM and oh my, have you ever given us some wild rides. We weren't sure what to expect when we revisited Forever, one of the most frequently challenged books of all time, but it wasn't Ralph. The first rule of the Judy Blume fan club is you do NOT talk about Ralph. Unfortunately for us, we kind of had to talk about Ralph since the whole book is about him, which might be problematic from a feminist perspective. We struggle to reconcile this book with the rest of Judy Blume's oeuvre, struggle to understand why anyone would possibly like Michael, struggle to get through a paragraph without laughing... struggle with the overuse of ellipses in the book... we just generally struggle. We discuss whether the book could have just been an educational pamphlet, dissect Michael and Kath's deeply weird relationship, and try to determine what the take home was supposed to be about Sybil. Hawa makes a shocking disclosure and Hannah is slinging zingers. It's an IUD ad, it's a teen soap opera, it'll ruin the name Ralph for you. It's Forever by Judy Blume.
These Books Made Me is a podcast about the literary heroines who shaped us and is a product of the Prince George's County Memorial Library System podcast network. Stay in touch with us via Instagram @thesebooksmademe or on Twitter @PGCMLS, with #TheseBooksMadeMe or by email at TheseBooksMadeMe@pgcmls.info. For recommended readalikes and deep dives into topics related to each episode, visit our blog at https://pgcmls.medium.com/.
Oh Judy Blume, you are officially our most frequently covered author on TBMM and oh my, have you ever given us some wild rides. We weren't sure what to expect when we revisited Forever, one of the most frequently challenged books of all time, but it wasn't Ralph. The first rule of the Judy Blume fan club is you do NOT talk about Ralph. Unfortunately for us, we kind of had to talk about Ralph since the whole book is about him, which might be problematic from a feminist perspective. We struggle to reconcile this book with the rest of Judy Blume's oeuvre, struggle to understand why anyone would possibly like Michael, struggle to get through a paragraph without laughing... struggle with the overuse of ellipses in the book... we just generally struggle. We discuss whether the book could have just been an educational pamphlet, dissect Michael and Kath's deeply weird relationship, and try to determine what the take home was supposed to be about Sybil. Hawa makes a shocking disclosure and Hannah is slinging zingers. It's an IUD ad, it's a teen soap opera, it'll ruin the name Ralph for you. It's Forever by Judy Blume.
These Books Made Me is a podcast about the literary heroines who shaped us and is a product of the Prince George's County Memorial Library System podcast network. Stay in touch with us via Instagram @thesebooksmademe or on Twitter @PGCMLS, with #TheseBooksMadeMe or by email at TheseBooksMadeMe@pgcmls.info. For recommended readalikes and deep dives into topics related to each episode, visit our blog at https://pgcmls.medium.com/.
Hi. I'm Hawa, I'm Narlene, I'm Heather, I'm Hannah, and this is our podcast. These Books Made Me. Today, we're going to be talking about Forever by Judy Blume. Friendly warning as always, this podcast contains spoilers. If you don't yet know who Ralph is, proceed with caution. Content warning, I mean that's not serious no joke Proceed.
Hannah:You know who.
Hawa:Content warning. This episode contains references to teenage sexuality, suicide, teen pregnancy, abortion and STDs. This episode is rated T for 13.
Darlene:So I guess we can jump into the discussion For a bit of the discussion. What did this book mean to you, and was this everyone's first time reading? If not, how does this reread compare to your memories of reading it when you were younger?
Heather:So I think I read this a really really long time ago when I was a kid, and this was, like known as the Sexy Judy Bloom book. That's all.
Hawa:I remembered about it. I wish y'all could see Heather's face right now.
Heather:I this reread compared poorly because this is not a sexy book, it's just got a lot of sex in it.
Darlene:This was awful y'all, but what does it mean to?
Heather:you. It means there's like hours of my life.
Darlene:I can't get back. I don't know.
Heather:It means I'm never going to meet someone named Ralph Not be able to laugh. I really I don't know what to say. This one was rough. Did anyone else read this before?
Hawa:This was my first time reading it, so I was. I mentioned that I was going to read this a couple of months ago after I watching the Judy Bloom documentary, and I'm very glad that I waited so I could discuss this with this lovely group of people.
Darlene:Yeah, it's. It's my first time reading it as well, so I really did not expect this, because I I came into it not knowing anything other than what we learned about in the documentary.
Hawa:Yeah, so we're just like.
Darlene:Oh, it's a frequently banned book and you know we try to give every book the space it deserves, but I think I could have done without reading this book.
Hannah:I did not read this before this week and I listened to an audiobook and I had to speed it up to make it shorter to get through.
Darlene:Yeah, I made the reading experience worse. To hear it, it made it cringier Like yeah, I can imagine because my read of this book last night.
Heather:I was repeatedly taking sections and reading them out loud to make other people laugh. It's that bad.
Hannah:Oh, I was also doing like hamster voice speed yeah.
Hawa:So, basically, since this is three out of the four of us, this is our first time reading it. It sounds like it's Heather's fault that we're reading this to begin with. Because, we don't ever make a book that nobody's friends. So because when after we watched the documentary.
Heather:So I love Judy Bloom y'all, I really do. She's very important to me and after we watched the documentary we went to see are you there, god? It's me, margaret, which we loved the book, we loved the movie. Oh, judy Bloom forever. It was like we should do another Judy Bloom I really wanted to do, otherwise known as Sheila the Great, which I stand by. We should still do that book, but we're like no, forever, it's banned. Like let's do forever.
Heather:I was curious yeah, we were in our rock band era and we were just like we're going to do a band book. This was not the one.
Hannah:Are we the cat that got killed by curiosity?
Heather:Yes, oh okay, we're going to be dealing with this whole episode, yeah, so I guess fair warning we are trying to keep this sanitized because this is a work podcast. It's going to be very difficult to do that with this, so this may be a short one, folks, I'm going to dive into a plot summary as best I can. 17 year old Catherine Danziger meets senior at another school, michael Wagner, and their relationship quickly blossoms into first love. As their relationship blooms, catherine eventually decides to have sex with Michael and tell him that she loves him.
Heather:Senior year is a whirlwind of parties, sats, ski trips, school plays and sexual escapades on various area rugs. There's friend drama a closeted friend who can't go to the acting school of his dreams, premature ejaculation, parent drama, a teen pregnancy, stds, pelvic exams, a drunken evening after an unsuccessful suicide attempt and promises to stay together forever. While spoilers, folks, promises don't mean much when you go to tennis camp and meet a college senior named Theo, kath Cheets on. Michael breaks up with them, tries to play it, cool when she runs into a mid-store and then moves right on to Theo. That's it, folks. Everything happens and nothing happens. It's a book about teenage sexuality.
Hawa:I'm falling down. I love it.
Hannah:That sums it up All right. A little bit about our author. Judy Bloom was born Judy Sussman on February 12, 1938, two parents, esther Rothenfeld and Rudolph Sussman. For the majority of her childhood she grew up in Elizabeth, new Jersey, with her parents and older brother, david. However, when Judy was in third grade, the entire family, except for Rudolph, moved to Miami Beach, florida, for the sake of David's health. He was recovering from a kidney infection and the Florida climate was both beneficial. They lived in Miami Beach for two years.
Hannah:Judy was an avid reader and attended an all-girls high school called Baton High before earning a BA from New York University in 1960. She married a lawyer named John Bloom the year before she graduated, 1959, which was also the year that her father died. The couple had two children together, a daughter, randy Lee, and a son, lawrence, andrew. John and Judy would divorce in 1975.
Hannah:Bloom began writing stories and books when her children were still very young. Her first published book was a picture book entitled the One in the Middle is the Green Kangaroo in 1969. Her next published work was Iggy's House in 1970. Bloom would also publish Are you there, god? It's Me, margaret, in 1970, which would become one of her best-known books and make her a well-known voice in fiction. For readers at the cusp of young adulthood, the book attracted censure and banning attempts, in addition to accolades. Bloom continued to pen novels devoted to the experience of growing up, with frankness and humor. Her books continued to stir up controversy and account for the talks they covered. Blubber was published in 1974. Bloom continued to write books for young readers, but later branched out into adult fiction. She wrote Forever in 1975. Her last published work was a book called In the Unlikely Event in 2015. Bloom has remarried twice and she owns a bookstore with her husband, george Cooper, called Books and Books in Key West Florida.
Heather:Alright, folks guess we're talking about this book now. So obviously sexual health is a huge part of this book. In fact, there's an entire chapter that is just a blow-by-blow of a pelvic exam and a screening visit with a sexual health nurse about STDs. How do we feel like this held up on that front?
Darlene:I mean, I think even the book acknowledges that it didn't hold up in certain parts, because at least in the audiobook there was a section at the very end that said oh, like I included, it's Judy Bloom speaking and saying that she had included information that was what was recommended at that time, but that some of that doesn't hold up today, Like she would say. You know, like different things now.
Hawa:Yeah, there's a note to the readers at the beginning.
Heather:Yeah, she mentions in the preface of the physical book that today, hiv and AIDS are definitely a part of sexual health and that you're not just looking to prevent unwanted pregnancy, which was what she focused on in here, though I think that's a bit of a cop-out too, because Michael had gonorrhea.
Hawa:Right. So it's just like. Were they not thinking that okay? Well, yes, condoms to not get pregnant, but also to not get STDs.
Heather:Yeah, it's very odd because that is a whole piece of it's actually a very important piece of the book, because Catherine makes an offhanded joke about Michael, says guess what I have? Catherine says VD, and then he gets really, really upset because he did in fact have gonorrhea but got treated for it. To me that's odd because clearly STDs were mentioned in the book.
Darlene:I actually thought that might be a plot point at one point, which is during the Plant Parenthood chapter, because they were going to test her. And then she's like well, michael would never do that to me.
Heather:And then they were like but it's like well, he already told you that he has a clap.
Hawa:Do they use condoms every time, is it?
Heather:implied. That was unclear too, because they did the first time and then Then she gets on the pill, obviously. Yeah, I mean, I don't even know what to say. They did the first time and he didn't get it in. And then the second time. To me it was ambiguous as to whether they use the condom or not and then they mention it again the third time.
Darlene:It almost makes it seem like once she gets on first control.
Heather:They ditch it. Yeah, that was my.
Darlene:I don't know that's yeah, that's what I felt like was implied.
Hannah:Yeah, they kind of hand waved a lot of those details yeah.
Hawa:Which I mean. I guess she's probably like oh, I don't want to mention it like every single time, but I guess maybe she thought it wasn't sexy for the like.
Heather:I'm still not sure what her motive was with this book. Good point, because I don't know either, like a lot of this reads more like a manual for like. This is how you make an appointment with Planned Parenthood. This is how you get screened for an STD during a pelvic exam.
Hawa:This is what a speculum is.
Darlene:But, they don't even ask for a parent.
Heather:Oh, consent, consent, yeah, but you don't need. No, that's what I'm saying Like, but she included that for like it felt really instructional or informational, so you understood that, like you didn't need your parents to take you.
Darlene:Exactly Like if you were concerned about something like you had to tell your parent about it. You don't need their consent.
Heather:Yeah, there's these chunks where it like is very manual, like almost granted. It's all told through weird verbatim dialogue.
Heather:You really get the entire dialogue between the nurse and Catherine on the on the screening for which type of birth control method might be best for her. But then I think a lot of the scenes that are the actual sex scenes and there are a lot are meant to be sexy but they're not. Do we want to talk about that? I mean, I think that that's a major failing of the book. These are the least sexy sexual encounters I've ever read and they are deeply weird.
Hawa:And I think there was like like I think the first time they have sex was like um in front of the fireplace and like that.
Heather:So they try to like turn it, they do it on rugs, they turn it like circle back. They are in places with beds repeatedly and they still use the floor.
Hannah:This is how you get rugburned, but the thing.
Heather:That's really weird to me. So, oh my God, I can't even believe these are the details we're talking about today. So the first time that they have intercourse, they are concerned that breaking her hymen will result in so much blood it will stain something. So they're like we'll get a towel, but then they decide that it will soak through the towel and stain the bed. So the solution is put the towel down on a rug.
Hawa:So are you not concerned, the rug is going to get stained Right.
Heather:So now you think you're going to bleed all over the rug. But that's fine.
Darlene:But then she's like oh, it's such a pretty rug.
Hannah:And they get two towels, I think they decided that there were so many colors in the living room when no one would notice the stain, which is real gross. But this is also so like.
Heather:to me, this is bad information. So I understand that teens might have a profound lack of understanding about how much blood is involved with breaking a hymen. You don't hemorrhage out. That's not what's happened. That never gets corrected. Yeah, and then why every sexual encounter after that? Do they still do it on the floor? Why don't we do it in the room? It doesn't matter where they are. They're doing it on the floor in the den. They're doing it on the floor in the love shack that his sister and her stoner doctor husbands set up with them, which is deeply weird y'all, why?
Heather:Why Is this boy's older sister and husband seem to have got an apartment that they lend to them solely for the purpose of them having a place to have sex.
Hawa:So did she know that? Like that's where they were going? Yeah, that was the whole point.
Hannah:I wasn't clear on that. On her, I thought I knew she gave them the key. It wasn't clear to me that she was sanctioning them going to have sex at her place.
Heather:I think, she kind of had to know she had to. I think that was the whole point, because otherwise they could go anywhere. They were fine hanging out at Catherine's house. Yeah, I think that was very wink-wink. Here's the key. Hey, you want a joint? They were at the ski trip.
Hawa:Because I know.
Heather:They were trying so hard to be the cool sister and brother-in-law and it came across as super creepy, yeah, like the brandy and the hot chocolate.
Hawa:I don't know if that was a thing back then, considering how old they were, but also, were they old enough to drink?
Heather:Yeah, because it was 18. It was the 70s.
Hawa:I was just because I know. When they went to the bar they mentioned the idea.
Heather:Yeah, I know, it was 18 back then, so that was fine.
Hawa:They were cringe.
Heather:It was real cringe and just weird. So, all of these scenes okay, we have to talk about the Ralph and the Whale.
Heather:Maybe the most cringy part. So Catherine is presented, as she's had some boyfriends before, she's dated a little bit, but she's still a virgin. It seems like things have not gone too far because she's apparently, you know, the first time that Michael unbuckles his pants, is the first time she's encountered male genitalia which he takes it out of his pants and introduces it. This is Ralph. I don't know what to do with that, and I'm like huh, I was confused.
Heather:Like that's the least sexy thing anyone has ever done in their entire life and I feel like that is a universal. Is there any girl on the planet that would be like that's hot. You named it, ralph. No, you'd be like you are clearly not ready for this and put it away.
Hannah:And I'll fair enough. I'm not sure there's a name that would have made it less weird.
Heather:No, but the part and introducing it is incredibly weird. Like you know, he was like, oh, this is going to hit.
Hawa:This is going to be the one.
Heather:She's going to be like yeah that's real sexy, no yeah.
Darlene:And then it was like an inside joke. Yes, it.
Heather:I think I don't know how many times did Ralph appear in the text, how you did some research.
Hawa:I looked it up, it was 23.
Heather:I did some informal research and asked a man if he had ever named his bits and he said no, people don't do that. So and I said, if they did, would they introduce it to somebody during a sexual encounter? He said no, that's weird.
Hawa:And I think for that to have been like the first time is just so weird, like you know, I think I guess maybe it wouldn't feel so weird. I mean, it's still pretty weird, but it would probably wouldn't feel so weird if, like, okay, they'd been together and then like, after the fact they came they jumped in by they came with a name together. Like no funny.
Heather:And passing. Her first encounter with him and his penis is this is Ralph Like so hard?
Hawa:to read. I wish overdrive wasn't acting up right now so I could read to y'all how cringe some of these.
Hannah:And you said it was only 23 times. But I swear to pure my text so many more times.
Heather:It felt like so many more. No, it's really bad.
Darlene:And it's its own entity too, because when he writes letters he says Ralph loses you.
Hawa:Never will be able to look at someone named Ralph. The same again, never. Those poor people.
Hannah:I was saying before we started recording that it's going to ruin the Beverly Cleary Ralph books for me.
Heather:Yeah, hi.
Darlene:Are you guys trying to do dramatic reading? You said doing one Are you guys trying to? Is that what you?
Hawa:guys are, I was looking. I mean, and we talked about the fact that you know, it seems like you know the use of Ralph is obviously so she's not saying penis in the book 23 times. But yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't know if hearing, I mean, I was perceived I want to talk to a teen. Somebody who read this as a teen remembered how they felt. Or just give this to a teenager now and get a reaction. I mean.
Heather:I can't imagine at any time that somebody felt like this was compelling dialogue. I get what she's going for from an educational perspective, but this plays so much as like an educational video they show you in health class. Michael, do you have something? What? For? You know, didn't you finish your period last week? But I'm not taking any chances. If you're thinking about VD, I promise I'm fine. I'm thinking about getting pregnant. Every woman has a different cycle.
Hawa:It's all right. I told him it's okay. Really no, it's not. It doesn't matter. Maybe not to you. It could have been all that talking. We shouldn't have talked so much. Next time it'll be better, Michael said. I promise Ralph won't fail me twice. Oh my God.
Hannah:Ralph, you had one job, oh y'all this book. You can just cut everything I say out.
Heather:Okay, I think we do need to like backtrack to the beginning, because while I said that basically it's just constant sex scenes, the first half of the book is really more like almost sex scenes. So there's a lot of like will they, won't they? For the first half of the books, because Michael's real eager to get things going and Catherine is a little bit more concerned. Right, it's going to be her first time. She wants it to be special, she wants it to be perfect, she's nervous about it. So there's several interludes between them where they do not have intercourse. There's sexual contact, but they don't go all the way. There is a whole lot of pressure put on Catherine by Michael. The first half of this book I was like he's awful, Like just a terrible person. He will not leave her alone. He's just constantly like oh, you're making it awful for me. Like this is so hard, I'm, you know, we've got to do it. Like why aren't you ready? She's not ready yet and he just won't. He keeps pushing.
Hawa:She'll say no, he keeps pushing, it's that, and you know I was trying to figure out if the library I got this from has this book labeled as a romance. But nothing to me about this book feels romantic.
Heather:And.
Hawa:I don't know if, like the hymn, like you know, constantly mentioning and trying to get, like pressure her. I didn't know if that was supposed to be like oh, maybe like a lesson or something like that, but I don't think so because she, you know, I mean, I guess she decides what she wants to, but it doesn't entirely feel like she. She probably could have had some more time to, you know, ease her way into wanting to do that Like.
Heather:Well, and did it not seem to you all that Judy Bloom wrote this, as this relationship is what, in a perfect world, to her at the time, a healthy teen relationship would look like right, and her parents are educational and supportive you know, the provide a space for them as opposed to them doing it in the car they're safe about it. She goes to Planned Parenthood, she gets on birth control, but we have like a hundred plus pages of him just constantly harassing her to go farther.
Hannah:He doesn't ask, he keeps assuming, and then he winds when she puts on the brakes. And she's constantly having to put on the brakes Like it's exhausting.
Hawa:And then there's no acknowledgement about that.
Heather:No, nothing, that's just like it's treated as though that was fine and reasonable.
Darlene:Yeah, I agree that that's what I think she was doing, because it's also like how he responds, like he has these moments where he's like trying to be understanding or he'll follow up as if he understands, but like when you're reading it you're like you know that that's not how it feels in that moment. Does?
Heather:that make sense. It feels bad and like every time he's doing that, she as a teen girl. The reason pressure like that works is because when he does that, her mind triggers like oh, I like him so much he's not going to like me anymore. I like him so much, he's going to break up with me if I don't go farther.
Darlene:Or like I'm the one doing something bad by stopping Like because this is natural.
Hannah:He calls her a tease.
Darlene:Yeah. And then she says, is that what you think of me?
Heather:And then he says, oh well, no, but it's like he hedges it with, like I would say you're acting like a tease, which is like when people say like you're acting like a bitch. I didn't call you a bitch.
Darlene:Oh my god. He calls her. He says why are you acting like such a?
Hawa:bitch in a book too, and I was just like seriously.
Hannah:I think he says I know you're not, like it's very manipulative, like if I didn't know better, or something like that. He said that.
Hawa:That's why you've been such a bitch all night, because I guess she was jealous about the girl that he kissed on like a little bit yeah and old or something.
Darlene:Yeah, yeah, and she looks not go too easily as well. I think she just was like.
Heather:She ends up like kind of apologizing for it and whatever I think I would have rather this book.
Hawa:Try to take a look at what a healthy teen relationship would look like, as opposed to just help the teen sexuality.
Heather:I think she thinks it did. She probably doesn't think it did. I think she believes this portrayed or at the time, believes she was portraying what an ideal, healthy teen relationship would look like at that age.
Hawa:I think it just feels like it focused more on like the sexual part of it as opposed to like oh hey, I'm having some really real emotions. Let's talk through this.
Heather:Well, that's the thing is they don't really delve into anyone's emotions in this book. You don't really see a whole lot of emotional impact on stuff until Catherine and Michael are discussing like having to leave for college and they're kind of panicking about being apart. And then you get sort of a chapter of her like I love her with my whole heart, what am I going to do without him? And her parents are trying to put the brakes on it and saying like y'all, this is too much, too soon. That's about it, because the rest of this she's nervous about having sex. I want to, but I'm not sure That'll be it. You get one sentence throw away and on we go to the next encounter and I found their first scene, by the way, sparkling dialogue here. Help me, michael, I feel so stupid, don't wiggling out of his pajama bottoms. Catherine, I'd like you to meet Ralph. Ralph, this is Catherine. She's a very good friend of mine. You endanger her. Does every penis have a name? I'm endangered. Why do we live in this world?
Hannah:We're in the bad place. This is the bad place, maybe some books need to be banned.
Hawa:No, I'm kidding, I'm just kidding y'all. I don't mean that. Damn.
Darlene:Now, I was going to say, we should have put that in our intro like in the case study for why some books maybe should be banned.
Heather:Or maybe this book actually makes you not want to have sex.
Hawa:It's not the best choice. That's the point.
Heather:It is a tome for the virtues of abstinence. So you don't run into Michael and Ralph.
Hawa:Shut up, ralph, shut up. You know what that makes sense, though it could totally just be like yeah, it's not really all, it cracked up to be.
Hannah:It's not all that Because like y'all.
Heather:I mean, and it definitely, isn't for her.
Darlene:Well, I wasn't sure if you were supposed to read that, as like all the other times that weren't mentioned after the first time she has. But I don't know, I don't think.
Hannah:Michael's capable y'all? I also don't think, neither, michael nor Ralph Yikes.
Darlene:Oh man. But, I think I agree with how I was saying that if it had explored the healthy relationship aspect, which I know that you were saying that you think that's what she was doing, but I do think it had.
Heather:I don't think she succeeded.
Darlene:Yeah, like if she had clocked those remarks and like how unhealthy that was, and maybe even like comparing it to maybe Theo being a little different, like something to state that, like Michael was not a great guy. Like Bad boys, bad boys, what you gonna do.
Hawa:What you gonna do when they come for you, bad boys, bad boys.
Heather:But see, I don't think she, when she wrote this, was even tracking that. That wasn't OK, like I think. That's how I mean. I guess there's some value in reading it that way now, like how internalized misogyny is? We traced the call, it's coming from inside the house.
Hawa:Do you hear me? It's coming from inside the house.
Heather:It was cool for him to act like that, like it's fine, he wanted it. So that's how boys are.
Hawa:Yeah, I feel like the extent of this work was like OK, in terms of like talking about them having a healthy relationship, like OK, yeah, they're teens and yeah, they're having sex, but that doesn't make them bad people or like sluts, it just makes them teens who have sex, OK. But then, on that same note, who are having babies.
Heather:I don't, frank. I don't think she's even consistent on the. It doesn't make them sluts. She only gives Michael and Catherine that sort of grace. The character of Sybil, ok. Ok. So for context, there is another girl who goes to school with Michael and is the way that Catherine met Michael is at this girls party, sybil. Sybil is depicted as she's called fat multiple times in the book.
Darlene:Literally from the beginning.
Heather:She is presented as promiscuous. She's judged for being promiscuous. Erica, the best friend of Catherine, says that she she analyzes Sybil and says that Sybil sleeps around a lot because she it's basically trauma based, like because she's fat and because she's insecure. She wants that attention and validation from boys so she gives it up easy, like that's what Erica says. There's all sorts of problems with all of that, but OK, we're accepting that.
Heather:At the beginning of the book Judy Bloom is saying that the character of Sybil is having sex for wrong reasons and she's having a lot of unsafe sex for wrong reasons because she's craving attention and validation. Sybil gets pregnant. Sybil does not tell anyone she's pregnant because she wants to keep the baby. Sybil is overweight and wears tents that's a quote from the book that hide her pregnancy until she's eight months along, so no one knows she's pregnant. Sybil thinks this is great. Sybil pops out a baby. She says that that's words from the book. Pop right out and then Sybil at that point says she's not going to give up sleeping around, she's going to continue to be promiscuous, but she's getting an IUD because she just wanted the experience of having one baby. But now it's cool, so she's going to have an IUD so it doesn't happen again. Which are we supposed to think? That that's?
Hawa:a normal reaction Like now that's cool.
Heather:You said earlier that the only reason Sybil was sleeping around was because she needed attention, which is a bad reason for having sex. Now you're saying she's getting an IUD, which is what you've kind of promoted as the ideal here, like that's safe sex, so it's fine that she's promiscuous, and then it felt like it was sort of turning it into a like oh no, sybil wants to do this. She has agency, but you've been slut shaming her the whole book for doing that exact same thing.
Hawa:Yeah, that's really weird. And then I think also the whole like oh, she had the baby and gave the baby up, no big deal.
Heather:She's going to lose 50 pounds and go to Smith. That's also a quote from the book yeah, Wild stuff. I don't even like know how to process that as a like. Was that supposed to be funny? Was it supposed to?
Hawa:I guess the whole thing of the book was like oh well, nobody noticed she was getting pregnant because she was pregnant because she was already fat, even though there's a line here where she says Sybil would play at his mother and Elizabeth played. I guess from the play Sybil played his mother and Elizabeth played his girlfriend, but they couldn't compare to Arty. It didn't help that Sybil looked fatter than ever and kept fiddling with her great wig and I'm just like no, it's constant fat shaming every time she comes up and, I think, a very confusing depiction of Sybil's sexuality.
Hawa:And also a random plot twist, like I guess, like her mentioning that she looked even fatter, like looking back was supposed to be like an allude to her being pregnant.
Heather:Big pregnant, but it's just like she could have done that differently.
Heather:On top of that, yet another weird look at sexuality where I'm not really sure how we're supposed to interpret it, as the whole thing between Arty and Erica. Arty is clearly coded as gay in the book, like he is an actor, he's a fabulous actor and he and Erica really hit it off, but she can't really get him to engage with her sexually. She keeps trying, she keeps trying, she keeps trying. Erica, do you think maybe Artie doesn't like girls? Like maybe he's not attracted to girls and Erica's like he's trying to figure that out, but like, don't worry, I'm going to bring him around.
Hawa:Yeah, like we're working on it, Like is that something that you and someone work on together?
Heather:No, and so she spends the whole year kind of dating this guy Cause she wants to do it before college? Yes, and she eventually gets tired of doing that, so she breaks up with him and he attempts suicide. What is going on here?
Heather:I, I it just felt like she was just dropping things in, Like she's like oh, I can pull that in and pull it, no, in like a three page span you have a breakup, a suicide attempt, and then Erica and Michael get so drunk that they have to like sleep over at Catherine's house. I just, I don't know what she was trying to say with some of this stuff. It's very confusing and I can't imagine being a teen and reading this book at the time if I was confused about my sexuality. What are you supposed to take away from that?
Darlene:Yeah, and I agree that it's even more confusing cause I think the what Erica lands on is okay, yeah, I'm not going to just try to have sex with anyone this summer. I agree that it should be something like with you and Michael, and that's what she's telling Catherine. So then it's like again. What I think is Judy Bloom's message is that you shouldn't just have sex.
Heather:The ideal is Michael and Catherine's relationship. They're so loving.
Darlene:So then I don't see even though you can have that interpretation, I don't see Sybil having any sort of agency with the, you know, with the IUD, like I don't, of course, with the timing of that.
Hannah:I know I'm worried she's going to have gotten a dolphin shield and ended up with like pelvic inflammatory disease. Oh, I mean, there's horrible Cause of the timing of 75 was when this was published.
Heather:There's a lot of problems with some of.
Hannah:I mean a lot of the sexual health information is super dated now I mean IUDs in the 70s. I think we're a lot sketchier than they are now.
Heather:I don't know. It's really confusing. And then at the end of the book, you know so she's kind of spent this whole time building up Michael and Catherine. Is this like look at this ideal teen, healthy sexual relationship. They love each other so much. Catherine ends up cheating on Michael at the drop of a hat at the end of the book and it seems like Judy Bloom is kind of saying well, that's okay too, because see, they weren't really in love. You think that because you're a teenager, which I feel like is also a really confusing message to send if you've just been telling people the whole book like this is so great, see, they're really in love. I don't know. It's very confusing. So which one is?
Darlene:it.
Hawa:Exactly, and then, and then it just ends. I'm not gonna talk about ending yet.
Heather:Well, I just did, so, keep going.
Hawa:It just ends so abruptly, almost like like they have, like she basically tells them like I love you. But you know, I met this other person and I think I have feelings for them. Some slight happened and he's like did you, did he? What is he? I don't remember what he said, but he's like oh, did you sleep with him? Or something like that. And then, and then they basically like go off on each other. He drops her back off at the camp, they have this huge blowout and then nothing. And then they run into each other in an apartment store before they go off to college and they just kind of like what are you doing here? Oh, hey, hey. And I'm like I just think that is so unrealistic.
Heather:I mean, I get that teenage relationships. You know, I remember being a teen, I remember my relationships at that age. I remember a lot of this stuff. Everything feels more intense, especially the first time. Everything feels more intense.
Heather:You do the end. When you're a teenager, you think you know everything. So it is love. I do, you know, I am in love with him. We are gonna get married. We are gonna like you feel that on some level and part of it's because people are telling you no, you don't feel that. That's not right. You're not actually, you know, and you're contrary yeah Right, so I get that, I get that they had this big blowup, but like she moves on so fast, regardless of you know how real your first love is in terms of, like, lasting power. They break up and she's just like yes, cool, cause, I'm with Theo now he called.
Hawa:She never grieves the loss of the relationship in a significant way, and you would think that she was going to right, because when she's starting to have these feelings that are kind of conflicting, she's like what does it mean or what does it feel like to be in love with someone and be attracted to someone else? And I'm like, okay, dave, maybe we might get kind of deep here. And then it was just kind of like, well, nope, onto the next.
Heather:I don't know. I'm gonna guess with Blubber too, we were really confused as to what the message was, but I think Blubber was a better written book, like on every level, even though I felt like the message was muddy. I have no idea what she's trying to say in this book Same At all. I mean, it really feels like she was like I'm concerned about teen pregnancy and teenagers don't have a safe place to learn about sex. So I'm gonna write a book so I can get that information out there and then constructed a story around that information, rather than working that information into a story that needed to exist. Mm-hmm, I don't know. Hannah, you look pensive. I was thinking Hannah's stuck on Ralph.
Hannah:I'm having a hard time getting over Ralph. I have to admit I was thinking about, I think, in the afterward this book. Judy Bloom said she wrote this kind of in response to her daughter, I think.
Heather:She said that about Blubber too. Stop blaming your daughter.
Hannah:I mean so she had, I don't know. I'm wondering if, like this, the mom is supposed to be kind of a stand-in for Judy Bloom.
Heather:I mean so too, like she's hip, she's cool, she's like, understands how it is to be a teenager. She's not judging her, she's getting her good information, which, yeah, I'm sure Judy Bloom felt like that was the kind of parent she was or wanted to be.
Hannah:Yeah, I think that's how she sees herself.
Heather:And that's good, like I do think it's, that's a good message, like it's good for parents to be open and honest with their kids about sexuality, for sure I. Just I don't understand this book at all. It just.
Hannah:I expect so much more of Judy Bloom, who writes marvelous books with wonderful characters.
Darlene:And this was like cardboard. I think this is her least developed protagonist.
Hawa:Oh for sure, we know nothing about Catherine she played tennis and she got a sister that she's jealous of, that can cook and is artistic and is more interested in Jamie than Catherine. Yeah, Catherine is the oldest sister who has sex. There's that identity.
Hannah:What's that conversation she has with an adult who asked her what she wants to be or do when she grows up? Hold?
Heather:on. We gotta read that one. Yeah it's there's nothing about that.
Darlene:She doesn't have it with an adult.
Heather:I don't think the one that she has with.
Darlene:I thought it's with her.
Heather:I thought it was with the party, with Sharon and Ike, but there's nothing that makes it more clear. I thought it was.
Hannah:Michael's uncle. Sorry, it's all right Arlene.
Heather:Yeah, it was, but it was at that party with Sharon and Ike Just that conversation made it so clear to me how empty she was.
Darlene:character development wise, yeah, which is so strange because you've seen Bloom like right characters that have a lot of like. You know she can do it. Yeah, they have a lot of personality. They have like you can get a sense of what they could be. But I don't know that you get a sense of what Catherine could be, because the only bit of sort of personality that they give her is the records. At the beginning, like I think Michael came to retrieve some records and some of them are, some of them are Catherine's and that's like how they bond kind of like over their musical taste, but then that's never carried throughout the rest of the book.
Hawa:I was like oh, who does my dad get real cute and romantic? Like no it's not.
Hannah:It's never mentioned again.
Darlene:Yeah, yeah, and even like them talking about their interests like tennis and skiing, it's very like superficial. It's just like I want to get my. You know, I want to become a skiing instructor. And for tennis, it's just like. I play tennis Like I don't know that there's any sort of like, so the enjoyment she gets from it.
Heather:The party says. So tell me, what do you want to do with your life? Do yes, you've thought about it, haven't you, Sure? So I want to be happy and make other people happy too.
Darlene:Young lady, what do you want to do with your life? I want to live in a van down by the river.
Heather:Well, you'll have plenty of time living in a van down by the river, when you're living in a van down by the river, and then he says very nice, but not enough.
Darlene:Is that like an adult interpretation of like how teens feel to be asked that question? I guess, but no, teens talk like that. No, yeah, they don't, but I'm just like again. Oh.
Heather:I don't think so, and I feel like she doesn't remember what it was like to be a teen, because it's just an idiot.
Hannah:I'm surrounded by idiots.
Darlene:Because we said in Blumber, though, that she seems to access, like the thoughts of a fifth grader.
Hannah:Yeah, she remembers that. Yeah, she taps into that. Well, very well, yeah, very well.
Hawa:Teens are a harder age demographic, I guess, but do we have any information about how they, like teens, received this book? They feel like, oh my god, this was so life changing.
Heather:I mean, I understand it was again. It was a controversial book and so teens liked it because it was the edgy sex book you weren't supposed to read.
Darlene:There was also less information. So then they were just thinking like, oh, she's telling me the truth.
Heather:Yeah, that's true. They didn't have the internet or anything to look at, so probably for some kids this was a really valuable source of information. And I'm sure I mean sex ed in schools now is not particularly good about giving you information about Planned Parenthood or STDs and stuff, so at the time I'm sure it was much, much worse, but like no boy. But then just write an informational brochure, write a blog.
Hawa:This quote from a New York Times book review says a convincing account of first love.
Darlene:Well, but then I mean, like that checks out, because the reason, another reason we wanted to watch it was because of the forever documentary and like all those authors that came like that were speaking about it, their testimonials on her different books and how they changed them, I think people had positive things to say about forever.
Heather:I mean I do think it is accurate that your first love when that happens for you, especially if you're a teenager, it feels different than all of the times. After that, everything's heightened and because you're a teenager, you infuse it with so much drama. You do have these stupid conversations like the VD joke that like turns into this, like oh my god, and that like it's the end of the world kind of fight about things. That's accurate. But she got the emotion right, but she got none of the words right. She got none of the characters. I mean there are no characters, they're just paper cutouts. Do I know this thing?
Hawa:They're two nice kids. Well, she's under. I don't like either of them. So in her this says you know, my daughter, randy, asks for a story about two nice kids who have sex without either of them having to die. Well, they didn't die.
Darlene:but oh yeah, all that because I did read that excerpt before and I and reminded me just of the screen movie.
Heather:I mean, yeah, that's a joke right.
Heather:Yeah like punish the sexually active teenagers. Yeah, so, yeah, OK, you succeeded there. They did not die. That's about all I can give her with this. I oh, it's just so poorly written compared to her other stuff and it Like she has such a tin ear in this for how human beings talk to each other and that's really. It's just really hard to reconcile with how well she does dialogue in some of her other books. Like I feel in some of her other books she really captures the sort of snarkiness that kids have at times, the kind of humor how overheated emotions become when you're a tween, and this just doesn't land at all, and I do. I refuse to believe that people ever talked like this.
Darlene:It does not sound honest to human language to me Human language I mean Catherine's dialogue and her mom are not really that far off, Like in how they speak about like sex. It doesn't sound that much different, no one's is.
Heather:It's not far off from the nurse at the clinic, that's true. So there's, there's nothing characterizing the dialogue for any individual character. It's all uniformly back and forth. Let's convey information. It's really bizarre. It's a very strange read. I think when we were talking on chat I said that I feel like Judy Bloom was like you know what teens need to know about sex? I'm going to write a book about that and just kind of like, cranked it out With not enough editorial process and she's off her game on this one.
Darlene:Or maybe it was too much editorial, like maybe an editor cleaned it up so much that it like, took any characterization out of it. I just want to give blue.
Hawa:Maybe the editor is why, the F word fly like twice. Yeah, I was going to say we were saying, like editors, why they say Ralph instead of penis? She was like, yeah, you have the word penis. I hear it so many times.
Heather:But, like in the same book, they do use the word more than once to refer to sex. So, like, why did you clean up the rest? That might actually be. The only thing that I felt was like authentic. In here, when they play like dirty words scrabble, I was like, oh yeah, we did that stuff when I was a kid. That was about it, though these are not authentic relationships that anyone's having, because we don't know anything about these characters and they're all just the same.
Hawa:Y'all want to know how many times F word is in here.
Hannah:Sure.
Heather:Three.
Hannah:Five.
Hawa:Five Four.
Heather:Split the difference.
Hannah:I was going to say, when I was a teenager, I read this. My mom got me this book that was designed to like teach you SAT words. They were like integrated into the plot.
Darlene:Oh, I used to read those. They were like folded.
Hannah:And the plot was terrible. It was just it was like the most it's just convey vocabulary. Yeah, basically, and this kind of reminds me a little bit of that, but like the point is to like to convey, you know, like sex ed.
Darlene:Yeah, you're right. I think it reads a lot like that.
Heather:No, the dialogue in some ways reminds me of the kind of dialogue I would have written for a story for class when I was in like sixth grade.
Darlene:I have to hit these points that my teacher put on a checklist.
Heather:And it's an impression of how people talk. It's not actual dialogue.
Hannah:I'm imagining it with puppets now. Oh no, no, no.
Hawa:I don't want to mention that.
Hannah:Oh, please, god, goodness, love that for you.
Darlene:I'm unimagining that I kind of want to do a deep dive of like good reads and seeing, like, what people say about it.
Heather:There was a wide range of reviews when I looked at them and I bet this is a good example of a book that people are nostalgic about because it was important to them in some ways when they were a kid. But I think a lot of that is probably related to like I knew this was the edgy book or I knew it was a banned book, and I get much of the same sense of like revisiting something like Flowers in the Attic, which is absolutely terrible as an adult to read it, though I would argue it's better than this. It's similarly weird, but better than this. Or like Clan of the Cave Bear, which again is a terrible book. But like I have that nostalgia of finding it at the public library and like flipping to the page that my friend said that the dirty stuff was on.
Darlene:I'm reading the good one Goodreads review and they're like. But I just recently turned 18 and I've got a good idea of what most teenagers think love to be and what I think it's supposed to be. And with all that in mind, I can't for the life of me abide the portrayal of love in this book. But it's funny because then they're like guys might go around naming their underpants, but I'm always going to think that's disgusting, like her. Fourth point is like all caps.
Darlene:I hate ellipses and any book that has 15 ellipses per page will automatically carve its place in my hated this book list.
Heather:She's right about that, because we've got three ellipses in one sentence here.
Hannah:When you listen to the audiobook, you miss all the ellipses.
Darlene:Yeah, that's true, especially when you listen to it on two times.
Hannah:Yes, there are new ellipses when you listen to it on two times she is correct.
Heather:The pages are littered with ellipses. Everyone is trailing off a conversation constantly. That's unfortunate, which just reminds me that it's like an in joke about like how much people of a certain era use ellipses in like text and emails, writing like you were in sixth grade I think my stuff was full of ellipses then too Like that's a very, because I thought that was how adults wrote. You know, then you don't actually have to say this thing, it's just implied Like you. Let the reader do the work.
Darlene:The way that Catherine lets Michael do the work about, like her last stare off at the end and then she's like I hope he gets all of this from my meaningful stare at him, but all I can say is see you around.
Heather:It's so corny, you guys so bad. Forever is a feminist work, folks.
Hawa:Is this a yes or no question?
Heather:That's the best I can give it. She tried, maybe at the time.
Hawa:I don't know, feminist for who? Because not for the fat woman, you know what I'm saying.
Heather:No, not for Sybil, Certainly, you know. I question like how good this was for Catherine, because again, half the book he's just pressuring her and then she's like, yeah, okay, I guess.
Darlene:That's not yeah, and she never really realizes that that's what he was doing. And I think that that's what was really frustrating about reading it is that you come away feeling like well, that's awful, Like she comes out yeah, like loving this guy and having like really fond memories, and I'm sure I don't know maybe go on to say that you know it was a really great first love, but what?
Heather:was it.
Darlene:Yeah, there was just so much time.
Heather:What's about. As much as I can give her credit for, though she at least acknowledged that it should be pleasurable for the girl, though it seems like that was minimally achieved, and it's still presented as that's the best you can do, because you know he'd only probably really did it one other time with that girl that he got twice. On the beach.
Hawa:I.
Heather:So cliche Well, and she gave him the clock so I went poorly for everyone, yeah.
Hawa:And attempt was made an attempt was made.
Heather:that's, yes, the subtitle of this book oh Boy there's a lip-sync even in the title.
Hannah:Uh-huh right.
Hawa:Bestselling beloved. Bestselling in band.
Heather:This book makes me sad okay, Feminist from the perspective that grandma seems like a bad. She's like a high-powered attorney. She's send him birth control pamphlets to her granddaughter. She's Taking care of the law firm after her husband has a stroke. I don't know. Yeah, her granddaughter who has no life goals other than Michael.
Darlene:You know what's an interesting, like almost self-reflection, but I don't know that. Bloom has it. She say something about that, rob Robert Redford. Oh, yes, like movie, doesn't? Oh, doesn't Catherine say something about it? Didn't ring true. What does she say?
Heather:She did. She was like, well, robert Redford's hot, but it didn't feel authentic or something. Yeah, this book didn't feel authentic. I mean I do. One of you did say that this had been made into a TV series.
Hannah:Yeah, like a limited-run TV series, I think so. I haven't looked deeply into it, but I believe it's on.
Heather:Netflix. I could see something like that working well for these topics and like being able to explore it better. Some of this stuff wouldn't be as hard to watch as it reads on the page, but you'd still have to change up the dialogue. I don't think it's happened yet, but I've seen that.
Hawa:Mara Brock Achille, who was behind girlfriends of the game she's doing a reimagining Upcoming series will follow the epic love story of two black teens exploring their identities through the awkward and and then it kind of oh.
Darlene:I thought it already come out.
Heather:I mean, it's another one they're. This is definitely not a book where, even though it's extremely dialogue heavy, like you can't take the dialogue for this and use it at any point.
Darlene:There was a made for TV movie in 1978, which I'm really curious.
Hannah:Looks like it's fairly loosely inspired, which might mean good things for it.
Heather:I mean again, I feel like that's almost all you can do. This is so generic, there's nothing there to work with.
Hannah:So they might be trying to update it. Like I don't, it doesn't.
Hawa:The details are sparse, but yeah, I wonder if that's even still happening.
Heather:It's just euphoria.
Darlene:That's the update forever, the more they change it probably the better at this point. That's interesting because I feel like you could have just made a show and not even given any Do you know what I mean.
Heather:Like you could have like not even acknowledged I had anything to do. You gonna pay for the rights to something when nothing's usable right?
Darlene:But maybe just to say to be able to get marketing around it, to say like it's loosely based on forever, like a book that comes up very often as like a band book and Judy bloom is having like a research.
Heather:I have to pay for the right to say that. So I bet a lot. Get your money, judy blue, I guess. All right, let's get into this game.
Hawa:Today we're taking a BuzzFeed quiz. Shout out to Daniela Emanuel, take this Judy bloom quiz and we'll guess your high school click, all right. So first question Are you there, god? It's me Margaret, or forever. Are you there? I'm gonna say are you there, god, it's me mark.
Heather:Oh, it's such a better book, but I feel like I probably should. If I'm trying to actually get an answer that's accurate, I feel like I almost have to go with forever, okay.
Darlene:Is it just based on which you like?
Heather:High school click, shouldn't it?
Darlene:I don't know.
Heather:I haven't read more than that. Pick that high school book, all right. Well, I'll be contrary, I will pick forever, even though Are you there, god? It's me. Margaret is a far, far superior book.
Darlene:I'm choosing. Are you there, god? It's me, margaret, same.
Hawa:All right, next up tiger eyes or blubber. I Hate blubber. I haven't I got eyes, but I hate it blubber, so I'm going tiger eyes as well insane.
Hannah:I have not read tiger eyes.
Darlene:Oh no, I've never read them.
Hannah:Which one are you going with? Tiger eyes? Cuz I haven't read it, but it maybe it's better than blubber.
Hawa:Okay, all right. So next we have Deanie, or then again, maybe I won't.
Heather:I really do not remember either of those, but I know I read them but both. So I'll go then again. Maybe I won't, cuz I have a vague recollection. I really liked that book when I was very little.
Hawa:I like the cover of Deanie. I guess I don't know. I'm just reaching here at this point.
Heather:I remember Deanie being good too, but I remember liking Deanie.
Hannah:I didn't read the other one.
Darlene:I'll go with Then again. Maybe I won't.
Hawa:All right, next up just as long as we're together.
Heather:Or here's to you, rachel Robinson I'll do just as long as we're together same.
Hawa:I'll do here. See you, rachel Robinson, I haven't read out of them.
Heather:I feel like this quiz is like Sheila erasure Where's my other one?
Hawa:Oh sorry, I'm reading questions.
Heather:Yeah, you're in charge.
Hawa:It is Iggy's house, or starring Sally J Friedman as herself.
Heather:Oh, iggy's house, I liked that one.
Hawa:I'm gonna go with Iggy's house, iggy's house.
Hannah:I don't know what happens either of them, so I'll pick Iggy's house too.
Hawa:All right and last but not least, we have freckle juice, or tails of a fourth grade, nothing tails of a fourth grade Nothing forever.
Darlene:I loved that book I liked freckle juice.
Heather:I did too.
Darlene:I went with tails of a fourth grade nothing.
Hawa:I'm gonna also go with tails of a fourth grade nothing. Huh, what'd you get? The bookworms? You and your friends had the highest grades in class. Most of your time was spent hitting the books instead of the parties, but it sure paid off on your college applications.
Darlene:I Got the rebels.
Hannah:I also got the bookworms.
Darlene:So you were one of the troublemakers. Class was overrated, the rest of the school was lame and your parents were the worst. Your town was boring, but you definitely knew how to make the best out of it.
Heather:All right. Well, the quiz was kind of his anti-climactic. Is the book fair?
Hawa:Michael's relationship.
Darlene:Each episode we ask whether our book passes the Beckdal test. The Beckdal test asks whether a work features two female characters who talk to each other about something that doesn't involve men or boys. So does it pass? No.
Hawa:I mean they talk about civil having the baby, which is kind of a reach and, if you think about it, kind of directly related to her and men in a way.
Heather:So maybe not yeah, that's kind of where I'm out with stuff, because All the sexuality stuff is still I'm. I guess with civil it's more focused on civil because she doesn't even know who the dad is.
Hannah:I mean her mom asked her if she looks bad in the bikini. Her father bought her, her husband bought her for her 40th birthday.
Hawa:I could show her some exercises.
Hannah:I hated that conversation.
Heather:So much there's a lot in there about that too, like there's serious body image stuff going on with Judy Blum, because she like gives their height and the mom's weight and does that whole like? They're close and yeah mom so thin and she can eat everything and she always looks great. And then by the end the mom's like are my size, getting flabby?
Hawa:Yeah, so this might be a no which is interesting because we don't have a lot of books. That because the standard is so low.
Heather:If it's a pass, it is just barely like I Don't know if I can commit that much credit. All right, yeah. I'm trying to think yeah, I can't think of a Conversation because even stuff about like college she's focused on where else is Michael applying, and like she goes to the counselor and talks about her college choices, but it's all with the goal of getting to where Michael is right?
Darlene:Yeah, yeah, I don't think so either. You're gonna say something?
Hawa:no, Well, that's it for this episode of these books. Made me join us next time when our main character is a native Marylander, who's one heck of a crapper. If you think you know which book we're tackling next, follow us on Instagram. We're at. These books made me and drop a comment on our guess our next read posts you.