How many times have you read The Bluest Eye by the legendary Toni Morrison, and why is it never enough times? In this episode, we all revisit this literary classic and realize there are several interpretations and layers we missed in previous readings. Like, did you ever consider that Pecola is Jesus and the prostitutes (*ahem* China, Poland and Miss Marie) are the 3 archangels? Neither did we until Heather talked through her religious interpretation. Whether you agree or not, one thing is undeniable, Morrison was an expert writer, deftly weaving in her narrative topics such as community, beauty standards, sexuality, trauma and prejudice in her perfectly lyrical tone. Her works beg to be sat with, processed and dissected. And sometimes it's dissected in all the wrong ways, as it's one of the most commonly banned books. But no worries, we'll always have silent rebels like our guest, Tiana Davis, who read it for the first time in 9th grade despite her school's efforts to ban it.
These Books Made Me is a podcast about the literary heroines who shaped us and is a product of the Prince George's County Memorial Library System podcast network. Stay in touch with us via Twitter @PGCMLS with #TheseBooksMadeMe or by email at TheseBooksMadeMe@pgcmls.info. For recommended readalikes and deep dives into topics related to each episode, visit our blog at https://pgcmls.medium.com/.
How many times have you read The Bluest Eye by the legendary Toni Morrison, and why is it never enough times? In this episode, we all revisit this literary classic and realize there are several interpretations and layers we missed in previous readings. Like, did you ever consider that Pecola is Jesus and the prostitutes (*ahem* China, Poland and Miss Marie) are the 3 archangels? Neither did we until Heather talked through her religious interpretation. Whether you agree or not, one thing is undeniable, Morrison was an expert writer, deftly weaving in her narrative topics such as community, beauty standards, sexuality, trauma and prejudice in her perfectly lyrical tone. Her works beg to be sat with, processed and dissected. And sometimes it's dissected in all the wrong ways, as it's one of the most commonly banned books. But no worries, we'll always have silent rebels like our guest, Tiana Davis, who read it for the first time in 9th grade despite her school's efforts to ban it.
These Books Made Me is a podcast about the literary heroines who shaped us and is a product of the Prince George's County Memorial Library System podcast network. Stay in touch with us via Twitter @PGCMLS with #TheseBooksMadeMe or by email at TheseBooksMadeMe@pgcmls.info. For recommended readalikes and deep dives into topics related to each episode, visit our blog at https://pgcmls.medium.com/.
I don't know if I've ever seen you gush about an author or a book like this. Like, I was not expecting this < laugh > .
Tiana:We're live.
Hawa:Hi, I'm Hawa.
Darlene:I'm Darlene.
Heather:And I'm Heather.
Hawa:And this is our podcast, These Books Made Me. Today we're going to be talking about The Bluest Eye by Toni Morrison. Friendly warning as always, this podcast contains spoilers. If you don't yet know who wants to dismember a baby doll, proceed with caution content warning, this episode contains references to incest, rape, and child abuse. This episode is rated T for Teen. We have a special guest today. Can you introduce yourself?
Tiana:Hi, I am Tiana Davis. I'm the marketing specialist here at the Prince George's County Memorial Library System.
Darlene:All right, so I guess we'll get started on our discussion of this book. So as always, we start with what did this book mean to you? And was this everyone's first time reading? If not, how'd the reread compare to your memories of reading it when you were younger?
Heather:This was not my first time reading the book. Um, I read this book, I think I was probably 14 or 15.
Hawa:Oh, wow.
Darlene:That's rough < laugh > .
Heather:When I read it, I remember I read it in high school , uh, because we actually read another book by Toni Morrison. And then I fell in love with Toni Morrison and I was just reading all the Toni Morrison I could find at the time. I loved the book then. It's a really hard book.
Hawa:Mm-Hmm.
Heather:It is still a really hard book. I think it's still a really beautiful book. So every time I've reread it, I've, I've found other things in the book to appreciate. U m, this time on reread, I, I found myself finding more influences on Toni Morrison's writing.
Darlene:Mm - Hmm.
Heather:Where I was kind of piecing together like, oh, I bet she read this. Like I could see little nods to other works in her book. U m, I love this book. I think it's so powerful. So I really enjoyed, well, enjoyed might be not the right word 'cause it's a really heavy book, but I really appreciated the chance to reread it again. Do you feel like you responded so well to it to begin with because you're really into poetry? Oh, that's a really interesting question. I don't know. I, I think the story's incredibly powerful and I think the writing's really lyrical and imagery focused and beautiful and yeah, I, I can see what you mean that it's very poetic in points. So, I don't know. I'm not sure why it resonated so much specifically. I just, I just knew that it was like a book in my heart.
Darlene:Mm-Hmm.
Heather:ever since the first time I read it.
Hawa:Yeah. So this is also not my first time reading it, but I wasn't much younger the first time I read it. Like I probably read it like two or three years ago. The re -how the reread compared, I mean, honestly, even though I had read it before, I didn't really remember what happened. Like I remember that I enjoyed it then I think now because we're actually having a discussion about it that will allow it to kind of like, feel like more ingrained in my memory. But I definitely think that , um, there were things that went over my head the first time that I read it, and I'm looking forward to being able to unpack that in this conversation.
Darlene:So for me, it wasn't the first time reading it either. The last time I read it was maybe 10 years ago. It was definitely during college. Um, but the reason I was asking you about whether it was because you liked poetry is because I was thinking about how I would've responded if I read this book in high school because it is so heavy. I think it's probably, yeah, probably one of the heavier books I've ever read. And so I don't know how I would've responded to it in high school. And I think I mentioned this when we talked about how the Garcia Girls Lost Their Accents, that before then I was not really someone that really cared for poetry, but that I really appreciated the like, lyricism or poetic writing style of Julia Alvarez. And I think that Toni Morrison is kind of also very well known for that kind of writing. So yeah, I guess, I guess I just wondered how a reading of it in high school would've gone. But I , I think I'm glad that I wasn't exposed to it until college. 'cause I think I needed a bit more like understanding.
Heather:Seasoning.
Darlene:Yeah. Seasoning < laugh > .
Heather:No, I think that's interesting because thinking about it now, I'm quite sure it wasn't so visceral for me.
Darlene:Mm-Hmm.
Heather:When I read it in high school, like some of this stuff wasn't as real. It was, you know, in a book and it was beautifully written and it was powerful, the story. But I don't think I had as mature of emotional touchpoints for this. Like, reading it now as a mom with kids the age of Pecola and with daughters, you know, it hits on a different level than it did for me when I myself was closer to her age. Um , yeah. It's a book that grows with you maybe, or we grow with the book. I'm not sure how to frame that. Tiana, how about you?
Tiana:So like you Heather, I was 14. I was in the ninth grade when I first read the book. Um, and so I think I liked it so much then because finishing the book was my little act of rebellion, I guess because my teacher actually got in trouble for having us read it. And so we like in the middle of the book had to stop. So I'm one of the few who finished it in my class.
Heather:That Sure. Brings up the whole like, banned books thing. And later, I think we definitely should talk about like what age do we think is the right age to give this book to somebody. But yeah, that's a really powerful personal story of banned books. Good for you. For finishing. Tiana You showed them
Tiana:Rebel without a cause,
Hawa:But yeah. How did it compare to your reread? This is a reread for you. How did it compare to when you read it when you were younger? Do you feel like you understood more? Like
Tiana:Yeah, < laugh > for sure. There was definitely like you a lot that I missed the first time that I read it. I think I just didn't understand some of the things that were going on or , um, you know, the things that were said. And I actually listened to it via audiobook this time.
Hawa:Mm - Hmm.
Tiana:So hearing the narrator and where she put emphasis, that also helped me see, you know, maybe the way that I read it when I was younger wasn't exactly what was intended to be or what I was intended to take from it.
Hawa:Mm - Hmm.
Tiana:But I also don't know if that's just the age thing. Whereas, you know, now I'm 30, so what I'm reading is different than how I read it. At 14,
Hawa:Toni Morrison was born Chloe Anthony Wofford on February 18th, 1931 in Lorraine, Ohio to Ramah and George Wofford, her mother was a homemaker and her father worked some odd jobs. And as a welder, despite living in an area that was somewhat integrated, there was the constant threat of racial discrimination. At the age of two years old, her family's apartment building had been burned down by the landlord while they were inside because the family couldn't pay the rent. The author's nickname Toni came about because when she was 12 years old, she became a Catholic and took the baptismal name Anthony as a child. Toni Morrison loved to read and mentioned Jane Austin and Leo Tolstoy as some of her favorite authors, quote, seeking the company of fellow black intellectuals. And quote, she enrolled at the historically Black university Howard University in 1949. Morrison graduated from Howard with her BA in English in 1953. She then attended Cornell University and earned her Master of Arts degree in 1955. Her thesis was titled The Virginia Wolf's and William Faulkner's Treatment of the Alienated. After graduating from Cornell, Toni Morrison taught English for two years at Texas Southern University and then taught English for seven years at Howard University. During her time at Howard University, she met architect Harold Morrison, the two married in 1958, had their first son in 1961 and got divorced in 1964. At the time of their divorce, Toni Morrison was pregnant with their second son. After the divorce, Toni Morrison started working in publishing and after two years, she became the first black woman senior editor in the fiction department. After transferring to Random House as the senior editor in the fiction department, she was instrumental in bringing a lot of Black literature of the time into the mainstream, including work by Muhammed Ali, Angela Davis, Huey P. Newton, and Toni Cade Bombara. In 1970, at the age of 39 years old, she published her first novel, the Bluest Eye. The novel didn't sell well initially, but was eventually added to the reading list of a few colleges, which helped to boost sales. Her second novel Sula was published in 1975 and landed her a National Book award nomination. Her third novel Song of Solomon was published in 1977 and was the first novel by a Black author to be chosen as the main selection for the Book of the Month Club. Since Richard Wright's Native Son in 1940, she went on to release eight more novels, including her most celebrated novel beloved, which won her the Pulitzer Prize for fiction in 1988. It was eventually turned into a film produced by Oprah Winfrey in 1998. In 1989, she started as the Robert F. Goheen Chair in the Humanities at Princeton University. And she remained in that role until her retirement. In 2006, Morrison's younger son Slade, died of pancreatic cancer in 2010 at the age of 45. While she was in the middle of working on her novel home, she had taken a break from working on the novel, but eventually continued saying that she knew her son wouldn't want her to not continue on because of his passing. Toni Morrison passed away on August 5th, 2019 in New York City at the age of 88 years old from complications of pneumonia. A memorial tribute was held for her in November of that year where she was eulogized by many literary giants.
Heather:I'm gonna give a quick plot summary before we dive into our discussion. Pecola Breedlove is a young Black girl growing up in the forties in an abusive and dysfunctional home in Ohio. Her life is a series of tragedies and challenges teased mercilessly at school for her dark skin and appearance. She thinks of herself as ugly and unlovable. Her greatest wish is to be beautiful and have blue eyes so that people will see her and love her. She's eventually sent to live with the MacTeers, a local family with two similarly aged girls, Claudia and Frieda, after her drunken father, Charlie burns down the family home and yet another episode of domestic violence. In Claudia and Frieda Pecola finally finds friendship and something like Belonging. Pecola eventually is returned to her family only to be raped by her father and beaten when she informs her mother. Now pregnant Pecola is again an outcast in the community. She seeks help from pedophile, snake oil salesman, Soaphead Church who convinces her that if she poisons a dog and he dies, she will then have blue eyes. The dog dies and Pecola descends into madness, truly believing her eyes to be blue. Claudia and Frieda plant seeds as a form of prayer for the health of Pecola's baby. But the baby dies, Pecola returns to her mother's care trapped within her own delusions. So I think to start off, we should talk about Blackness in The Bluest Eye. I think that's a hugely powerful motivator for Pecola in the book and it's really a focal point for the book as a whole. So I wanted to get everyone's take on how that's represented in the book and how it drives the plot forward and, and what your feelings are on it.
Hawa:So while reading this book, I'm like , um, I'm trying to like imagine what everyone looks like in the book, right? Like we know most of the other people in this book are also Black, but Cola's Blackness is described as being the ugliest type of Blackness. Like the it's in hearing that from other people around her, like in reading it, it may sound like it's so like unfathomable, but it's like that's reality. You would think like, oh, like this hatred wouldn't be coming from your own people. But it does. And it's really sad to read it and like how it's coming from all these like different like angles. Like, oh, like every time they see her they think, oh what an ugly little girl. It's just so bam in your face. It, it's like, no wonder she feels the way she does because it's almost like she can't go anywhere without being reminded of her specific type of blackness.
Heather:Even her teacher making her always sit separately by herself in a two person desk. Desk. Yeah.
Hawa:And how old are we? Is she like, 12?
Heather:I mean, he's a preteen.
Darlene:Yeah.
Heather:She's so little. I, yeah, so little
Darlene:I think I think that's, I think that also speaks to what you were saying about liking books more than movies. 'cause you can add in your own context. I think similarly with like the Blackness in The Bluest Eye, I was thinking about how when I read how the Garcia Girls Lost Their Accents in high school, I knew what the difference was between different immigrant groups within the Latino community. And so for me it was easier to access that like as she was speaking about certain things. And so I think a lot about kind of whatever, like what I know about what those experiences are like in the Black community. And because I'm not Black, I wouldn't know how to like access that information, but I feel like exposing yourself to like more people in your life and kind of seeing what they've gone through, I feel like you get more at that and you can see just how much more devastating it is. Because I don't know that I would've gotten that before. Like, she, I think she does a really good job at trying to explain it to you, but it's one of those things like Heather was saying, that you don't know how devastating it is back then because you don't know how to access those emotions or that understanding. But yeah, I mean the more that you kind of like live life and like see it for yourself, even if it is from like an outsider's perspective, it, it gives that book that much more context and you realize like why it was so important for her to show all those levels of Blackness within one narrative.
Heather:I wanted to ask if you all thought that this was something that struck me on this read that I don't think had jumped out to me before. That Toni Morrison is in some ways almost making the reader complicit in the colorism Mm - Hmm. She describes every character using color, like throughout.
Hawa:Yeah.
Heather:You'll hear somebody described as high yellow or, um
:Mm-Hmm.
Hawa:or milky brown, right?
Heather:Mm-Hmm.. So you have this constant sort of like systemic colorism that runs through the book. So all of our views of these characters are now shaped and our mental images are also colored by the color language that she picks to use for every character. And like, I think we are supposed to obviously hurt for Pecola, but I think much like with Claudia being sort of the proxy for us, we are complicit in it as well. Right? Yeah. Because we're also feeding into this. Oh, that's how I'm seeing the people too. Yeah. Like, oh, the little girl that's new in town, Maureen like bright, she's beautiful, bright.
Hawa:and shiny
Heather:she's light, she's, you know, so pretty. And you understand why everybody's like wanting to be her friend and why she's popular. U m, and the sort of unrelentingness of how Pecola is described as ugly and her description of herself, you know, like, um,
Hawa:Of her family.
Heather:exactly Like her mother and like the, the low foreheads and the hairlines and the, it's, it's unrelenting. And so you start to internalize that as a reader too. And so my image of Pecola was like a really unattractive little girl. And so that was part of like, well, I feel for her, but like I'm playing into the exact same thing that it's trying to point out. If that makes sense.
Hawa:Yeah. And then it almost like feels like, like I'm, I'm looking at the certain part of the page where it's just almost like, it's like the excuse for every, not excuse, but it's almost like their ugliness and their Blackness is the reason for why things are not going good in their life.
Darlene:Mm - Hmm.
Hawa:Right. So like it says , um, the Breedloves did not live in a storefront because they were having temporary difficulty adjusting to the cutbacks of the plant. They lived there because they were poor and Black and they stayed there because they believed they were ugly. And then it goes on to describe what their ugliness is. And it really just talks about like, like the, the things that they talk about are like just maybe features that you think about when you think about like darker skinned people and it's just like, yeah,
Heather:They just seem normal.
Hawa:Yeah. Honestly, like, I'm like,
Heather:But you do start to internalize the like, oh, I guess they're just, you know, really unattractive and they, you know, look a certain way and that you start to accept that as truth because they've accepted it as truth as well.
Hawa:Yeah.
Heather:Like, 'cause that's all they're hearing from people and Oh gosh. Yeah.
Tiana:I wonder too if some of what's described adds onto the ugliness for the reader. So, you know, the mom is disabled. Mm - Hmm. , she has like the shriveled foot. Um, and then the father is an alcoholic. So, you know, he's probably sort of, I think
Heather:She describes him as like disheveled and like kind of bloated almost at one point.
Unknown:Mm - Hmm. .
Tiana:Yeah. He was probably like a little sweaty. Like, you know, so I wonder if all of that adds to it. Like, you know, it's ugly to look at sort of a family and, you know, I assume Pecola is maybe malnourished because they don't have a lot of money so her clothes don't fit well, what few clothes she has.
Heather:Yeah. And I think also on that same topic , um, even though color is such a focus, we also have this concept of invisibility. Nicole is trying to not be seen or she sometimes feels unseen and then that becomes almost like a comfortable spot for her sometimes when things are going poorly. But then other times she wants to be seen. And this time that I read it, you know, that had such echoes of Ellison's Invisible Man for me.
Hawa:Mm-Hmm.
Heather:So like this equating of Blackness with invisibility and um, that kind of runs as a through line in the book as well. So thoughts on that?
Hawa:No, That makes sense. Almost as to like, not wanna bring attention to yourself so that people don't have a reason to like, make fun of you. I can totally relate to that, especially growing up like yeah. <laugh>
Darlene:And it, it's interesting when characters do notice her and then it just, it ends up worse for her. Like it's , uh, what's that kid's name that asks her to come back to his house?
Tiana:Junior
Heather:Louis Junior. Yeah.
Darlene:Yeah.
Heather:With
Darlene:The cat. Yeah. With the cat. And it's like,
Hawa:I hate that kid.
Darlene:Yeah. Had he...
Hawa:And his mom? Oh,
Heather:They're awful.
Darlene:Oh yeah.
Heather:They're so awful.
Hawa:Like, she literally, I don't even, I'm not even gonna repeat the words that she, like if you read the book, you know what she said, the mom said to her like, oh, I was so pissed.
Darlene:But yeah, I mean, had he just like let her go on through, she wouldn't have had to endure that. I mean, it was just like, it, it was just like a really devastating part 'cause right. Like there's the abuse that he's doing in that moment, but then also like blaming her for the cat's death and then subjecting her to like the mom's verbal abuse. And it was just like, you could've just let her go through the playground and just, she wouldn't have had to endure something like that.
Hawa:Yeah, no. He saw her, he saw her in her Blackness and was like, I'm, I can do whatever I want.
Darlene:Right.
Hawa:Because if nobody's gonna come checking to see what happens, like nobody's gonna care.
Heather:No one's can believe her
Hawa:Like no one's gonna believe her, no one's gonna care. And the mom's just gonna be like, okay, get, get out of here. Like, the mom didn't give a care or like, and they said this cat scratched up her face. Like you would've thought, oh, the mom would've been concerned, but she was like, no,
Heather:That was just evidence of her having hurt the cat.
Hawa:You heard you my cat Yeah, exactly. Like, mind you, it's not like, it's not like Junior didn't have a pattern of like, harming the cat. So you would've thought, like, as the adult in this situation, right. The smart thing to do would've been like, you know, to genuinely wonder what happened. She just took his word for it. Like, you know, he hates that cat, but you took his word for it. Like, how'd the girl get in here to begin with?
Heather:Well, and that was real, like generational trauma repeating itself. Right. Because , uh, Pecola's mother Pauline or, or Polly as she gets referred to sometimes, you know, her life really kind of goes off the rails when she starts to feel less than the types of women like Louis Junior's mom.
Darlene:Mm - Hmm.
Heather:,you know, the lighter skin, very proper, churchy , um, you know, always just starched and buttoned up and everything done right. And she can't ever fit in with them and she feels marginalized and so then she kind of
Hawa:Stops trying.
Heather:Yeah. And, and tries to be like that because she leans real hard into the like God-fearing woman thing, but she never quite can be with the nice house and the nice things. So she just accepts this abuse from her husband as part of like, well I'm just too Black to be like her, so I'm, I'm going to do what I can of that kind of, I don't know, way of living. Um
Hawa:And you know, it was in reading her, her her little, the little tidbit section about her and, and how she used to be before what is, what made me realize like, these are not like people that are like, like ugly. They're just Black. 'cause she talks or she kind of like, you kind of read into about like how she's like, you know, I used to try and I used to do this and I used to like really like kind of like kind of try and enjoy even though I wasn't great at it. And they would laugh at me, but then I just stopped altogether and just leaned almost like she leaned into the ugliness that was expected of her. .
Heather:Yeah. I , um, also along those lines with Claudia and Frieda, other than the incident with Maureen where they like, they turn on her, which, you know.
Darlene:Yeah.
Heather:Feels warranted.
Hawa:<laugh> .
Darlene:Yeah.
Heather:Um , and but other than that, you know, they're able to navigate sort of society a little bit better because they are I think like not viewed as ugly and they're,
Hawa:Yeah. Their parents are probably slightly better off.
Heather:Their home is a little bit nicer and, and their parents are more respected and , um, seemed to have like a firmer place in the community. The contrast between like Claudia and Frieda and Pecola, how much are we supposed to make of those two little girls being really the only ones to like accept her? And I don't know, what are we supposed to feel about that?
Tiana:Throughout the book? Claudia and Frieda seem very naive and that sort of pushed a lot. So, you know, they're friends with her because they don't really understand why they wouldn't be friends with her in, in my view, you know, at the beginning they talk about how they still love Mr. Henry despite what happened later. You know, they were praying for the baby to survive because they didn't really see why maybe the baby not surviving would be the best outcome for Pecola.
Heather:Yeah. They don't really think out. I mean, that is a very like, naive 'cause what would happen to that baby?
Hawa:Yeah.
Heather:You know, what possibly would that baby's life look like? It wouldn't be good. But they don't think it out that far. They're just like, oh, finally something sweet for Pecola. Like a baby is beautiful. So that's finally something good for her. And it's like, no, that's not good for her. Um, yeah.
Hawa:And I think also part of it, I like that you mentioned that they were like, they didn't really see it. Like, why wouldn't we be friends with her? Because I feel like children are like so much more. They have, they can have so much more of an innocence I say can have, because you also see like there are children who are already at the point where they're like bullying her and stuff like that. But I feel like a lot of like the dislike or the hate that children have or things they pick up on from like their parents or things that they hear their parents say. So either like with some situations, they either repeat those things or feel that same way or they hear it and they're just like, mm, yeah, I really don't like that, so I'm not gonna be that person. I don't know if like, I mean, the worst thing they heard the mom say about Pecola, like from what we could see is about like, she was mad that she drank up all the milk pretty much. Like, but then there are other things that their, their parents say like their, their mom has said that they repeat like about the, what's her name? Her, her name is Miss Marie, but they called her, what'd they call her
Darlene:The Marginot Line.
Heather:Mango line or something.
Hawa:What does That even mean? < laugh > ?
Heather:I don't know. I did not look that up.
Tiana:I think it's like a, a train < laugh > . That's what I, how I always out .
Hawa:< laugh > .
Tiana:Let's see if we can
Darlene:It says Maginot Line.
Heather:Maginot Line
Darlene:named after the...what?
Heather:why on Earth?
Hawa:a massive system of defenses that became famous for failing to stop a German invasion. It was built between 1930 and 1940.
Speaker 2:I, I got no clue on that one.
Hawa:I got no clue on that one. But that's why when Pecola was like, what Miss Marie and, but yeah, no, so like you see how like, you know, sometimes they're, they how, how they can be influenced by the adults around them, but that didn't necessarily stop them from wanting to be friends with Pecola.
Heather:So was Toni Morrison do we think making sort of a, well a religious imagery there that Pecola finds her place with the prostitutes, you know , um, and you have obviously that imagery in the Bible as well that, you know, Mary Magdalene's the one that tends to Jesus.
Hawa:Mm - Hmm.
Heather:when things happen and he's like, y'all need to back off because she's the only one that cares. Like what I'm going through right now. She's the only one that thought to take care of me. Just like the prostitutes are the only ones that really, of the adults.
Hawa:Yeah .
Heather:That think to take care of Pecola. U m, is that a Pecola as Jesus reference?
Hawa:Hmm .
Darlene:Or is it just that <laugh>,
Heather:I mean there's a lot of religious imagery in the book.
Darlene:No, no, no. There is, but I was gonna say, like, when I was reading it, I think I just, I think I just understood it as like a prostitute would know, like the, like being at the bottom of society and like not really having a chance. And so they might be able to access that a bit more in terms like, in terms of understanding what Pecola goes through. And so they, I feel like because of that you can have that sort of empathy and like compassion for this child. And that's why maybe they, they were like, they extended that empathy to her. At least that's how I took it. But yeah, now I have to sit on < laugh > , the idea that of the religious elements to it.
Hawa:There's an article that I found that we should probably look at and see if we can find it. It's on Jstor, but it's called the Fourth Face, the Image of God in Toni Morrison's the Bluest Eye.
Darlene:Mm - Hmm.
Hawa:So that might be interesting to, to look at or Yeah.
Heather:Yeah. I mean I just, I think that there's, there's something there that she was doing intentionally because there religion does weave its way through the book a lot. And I think that there is sort of, you know, with the struggles of Pecola and at the end, the destruction of Pecola for our sins.
Hawa:Yeah.
Heather:Like,
Hawa:And you know, when she leaves the, was it when she leaves the Junior's house? Like, and there's like the image of Jesus kinda like looking down at her as she's leaving.
Heather:Yeah.
Hawa:Interesting. That's why I like talking about books with people. 'cause I never would've came up with that <laugh> <laugh> .
Heather:So with , um, with Pecola having her mental health crisis, who are we supposed to blame for this, do you think? Yeah,
Hawa:Everybody failed that little girl with maybe with like the exception of like the prostitutes that lived above her. But like, even then it's like,
Heather:Yeah, I mean it's, societal all around
Darlene:It was nothing they could do
Hawa:Yeah.
Heather:Yeah. Poor thing. She just doesn't get a moment of kindness really from anybody. Right.
Hawa:Because the few people that were kind to her, right, like say like, you know, the kids and stuff like that. Like what can a kid do in a situation like that? Literally nothing. Like, they don't even have a full understanding of like why this is happening to her. Like what can they do?
Heather:Well and even the adults, it's a really odd dynamic. The, the women, so Claudia and Frieda's mom talking with, with the other townswomen, the proper townswomen, I think like , um, that happens a few times in the book. And there's, you know, initially they're sort of talking about like, ugh, the Breedloves what a mess. And like he's no good and she puts up with it and there's all of this bad stuff and Pecola's like, just kind of erased. Like there's very little sympathy for her given how indicting they are of the family. And then that happens again after the rape. Like, they're all very quick to be, you know, oh, it's wrong. That's bad. Charlie's no good. Like he's nasty. Why will they do that? But it's like Pecola doesn't even exist in that. No. Yeah, you're absolutely right. Like, 'cause even, I guess the one person does like insinuate that maybe she
Darlene:Did something.
Heather:Did something.
Darlene:Yeah. Which,
Heather:But, which which is gross. But that's how people are. But generally speaking, you know, it's like they, they understand that that situation is horrible, but it's, they don't see her, you know?
Hawa:Yeah.
Heather:I mean, she's right to feel invisible because there's no, hey, someone should help her. Or oh, someone should take care of that little girl. It's like, no, that family's just no good and now she doesn't exist to them.
Hawa:Yeah. And even like Claudia and Frieda, they're just like, they're listening. They were listening out to see if anybody would say poor little girl or poor baby, but there was only head wagging where those words should have been. And it's just like, it's interesting because we talk about like how naïve they are in a sense, but it's also like, were they the only ones to think like, dang, that's sad. It's sad. This is a sad one.
Darlene:Yeah. And I mean, it, it does, I guess there is that sort of connection to what happens to, it was, was it Claudia or was it , um,
Heather:Frieda.
Darlene:Frieda.
Heather:with, with the lodger Mr . Henry or Mr. Henry.
Darlene:Yeah.
Heather:That was his name, right?
Hawa:Yeah.
Darlene:Yeah. And then, you know, the way that the parents responded, right? Like that's the kind of like.
Heather:Right.
Darlene:Anger and like
Heather:He molests her and they try to kill him.
Darlene:Yeah. They threw like a tricycle at him or something.
Hawa:And then the neighbors come and help, right.
Heather:They come and loan him a gun, I think. Right.
Hawa:Yeah. So do they like
Heather:Go get 'em?
Hawa:Yeah. So like, i t, it's interesting how they have that energy for like, of course they'll have that energy for their child, but like the neighbors come in.
Heather:for the good family,
Hawa:for the good family, the nicer,
Heather:the cute girl
Hawa:the cute girls. But then for the ugly girl who maybe, yeah, this situation that took place, you know, I mean it was her father, but like, that doesn't make it like, that doesn't mean that it's her fault. And they're, of course they're maybe not sure how to, like, there's no like interference they think that they can possibly do. But the way they talk about it, I think also contributes to like the whole like society. Like they're talking about it as if like, it's just like the latest gossip, right?
Heather:Mm-Hmm.
Hawa:Like, it not like, oh, we should come together and do something. Not that they would, but still like, nobody's like, oh, that's sad. They're just like, well that happened.
Darlene:Yeah. And I think that that really comments on the fakeness of community.
Hawa:Yeah.
Darlene:Which I think it, it was, I think I read that she did kind of write this in response to like all the like positive things that people were trying to bring forth about like, like just Blackness in America and like acceptance and like being more positive about things. And I think this book is a really good, like it shows how there is a fakeness in that, right? Like that you're willing to do it for some people, but you wouldn't do it for everyone. And so then are you really, is there like a communal, like Black community?
Heather:Right? The idea that like if there's a community, someone's always in it and that means someone necessarily is out of it.
Hawa:Mm.
Darlene:Right.
Hawa:Yeah.
Heather:Oof.
Tiana:Um, I wrote something down when I was going through the book about how, you know, Pecola when she descends into her madness, she talks about how even Mrs. Breedlove, her mom , um, sort of turns her eyes down. And so I'm wondering if maybe it's not that people don't see or they're just refusing to acknowledge this horrible thing that's happened.
Darlene:Mm - Hmm.
Tiana:Whether it's because of shame or humiliation, you know
Heather:But her existence is an indictment of them.
Hawa:Yeah. Like what does say about themselves
Heather:They failed to help. They failed to act. So they're just going to pretend she's not there anymore. Also,
Hawa:Also, why does she call her mama Mrs. Breedlove? Like why do, why - do we have any insight on like why that is? But like the little, the little white girl called her Polly?
Heather:Well, I mean, I think that was supposed to contrast how she felt about her kids. You know, like for her, the most that Sammy and Pecola were gonna be was part of this. I keep a clean house, I have respectful children. Like they didn't exist as humans to her. They were just part of this thing. Whereas she sees the humanity in the little white girl and she's, you know, sad for her tears. Yeah. And she has much more maternal affection for that little girl than she does for her own kin. But it's because that family, like, that's the aspirational thing for her. That's her safe place, I guess in some way. Like when she's with them, she has more respect than she has from her husband at home.
Darlene:Mm - Hmm.
Heather:And she's able to keep order to things and no one messes it up. And she, these things that were like natural tendencies for her and the things that she aspired to when she was a child and that were comfortable for her, she seeks them out in this home with the white family. So she's this model servant, but it's like a different identity for her.
Hawa:I was just about to say that. It's like she's living two lives.
Heather:It's Polly versus Mrs. Breedlove. So it's these two different communities that she has a completely different place in, it seems like.
Hawa:Mm. That makes sense.
Heather:I was struck when I was reading again, I think I've always in my head thought of Claudia as like the closest thing to a narrator that we get in the book. 'cause we do get things from her point of view. And of course we have chapters that, that are not from her point of view. But often when we have a narrator that's like supposed to be the proxy or the stand-in for the reader, like we, their mind's eye is now our mind's eye. I don't know if I still think that anymore. I'm not sure that Claudia is supposed to be the stand-in for us. I think we are the community and Claudia's supposed to be an indictment of us. Like what she's seeing in the book, she's seeing us, right?
Darlene:Mm-Hmm.
Heather:like, that's how I felt reading it this time because I do really feel like Toni Morrison is trying to make us complicit in that community. Yeah. Like, we're not doing anything either. We're reading these descriptions and we're internalizing these like adjectives about everybody and their places and how everyone stacks up in it.
Hawa:Right. And just how we're like imagining them based off of the words that she writes. Yeah. Like what does that say about us?
Heather:I don't know. Am I misinterpreting?
Hawa:No, I, I think it's interesting.
Heather:I think I had that read before, but then this time I was like, Claudia's really not quite the narrator in that way. Not in the way of a traditional narrator. Anyways.
Darlene:I mean, if she falls into having some of that same perspective that the community has though, how much of an indictment is it?
Heather:Does she though?
Darlene:I think she understands certain aspects of it. Right? Like it's Claudia and why do I keep forgetting her sister's name? Fri-Frieda. Frieda. Thank you. It's Claudia and Frieda that have the doll, right? Like the.
Heather:Yeah.
Darlene:The blonde , blue-eyed doll and it's Oh, but Claudia's the one that hates the doll.
Heather:Yes. I think Claudia is the standin for the author. Like the whole section on her desire to dismember the white doll
Hawa:And didn't want to be a mother. And they looked at her like, girl, what < laugh > we never, we didn't have this growing up. You should. Yeah.
Heather:Yeah. And she's, she's much quicker. Well, and Frieda is very quick to like be like, oh no, you don't. To people, you know, those little girls are spunky. I really like them.
Darlene:< laugh > .
Heather:Um , but like even her sort of interpretation of the rape and pregnancy and what she wants for Pecola, I don't know. I I think that she's, I don't think she's us. I think she's Toni. I don't know if that makes sense.
Hawa:No, it makes sense. It's just it is, it is something I gotta sit and think with, you know? Yeah.
Speaker 3:Because I'm trying to think back on like every sort of like opinion or thought she's presented about any of the characters and trying to, because you know, like , um, I know that she's not, she doesn't really care for Marie. And um, I think when Frieda, what happens with Frieda and what is it , um, is it Henry Mr.
Heather:Mm-Hmm. Yeah. The lodger.
Darlene:What happened with them? I think she was also like, well what are you doing? Or like, just asking her, I mean she just wanted to know and as a child, like it makes sense. She's just curious about like how things happened and , um, yeah. Sorry, I'm like trying to think through that and trying to figure out like where did she stand on everything in the book. But I do agree that in general, like she was not, she didn't have quite the like, as negative thoughts as the community had .
Speaker 2:Yeah. She hasn't like, internalized that stuff in the same way I think. Um,
Speaker 3:Which is nice. But I mean, it's also 'cause she is had the support from her parents and the community. So maybe she can,
Speaker 2:She has,
Speaker 3:She can have that amount of privilege
Speaker 2:To be able to do that. That Pecola never Right .
Speaker 1:Has I came across this and it sounds interesting, so I'm gonna read it to y all if that's okay. Okay . Please do. This is all sparknotes, so I'm not taking credit for this by the way. <laugh> , um, such sources , uh, Claudia is a valuable guide to the event that unfolds in Lorraine because her life is stable enough to permit her to see clearly her vision is not blurred by the pain that eventually drives cola into madness. Her presence in the novel reminds us that most black families are not like Colas . Most black families pull together in the face of hardship instead of fall apart. Claudia's perspective is also valuable because it melds the child's and adult's points of view. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> , her childish viewpoint makes her uniquely qualified to register what cola experiences, but her adult point of view can correct the childish one when it is incomplete. She's a messenger of suffering, but also of hope. And I think that the word, I mean, I don't know if I completely agree with everything in there, but I think that I like that it discusses how the childish viewpoint and up against the adult viewpoint because I think it explains why like in some instances, like, you know, like they come across as like being a bit naive, but also like being like, you know, having more of like the, you know, insight . I guess looking back,
Speaker 2:Should we talk feminism in the Bluest Eye? I mean, I think, I think start this from a place of saying that I believe Toni Morrison felt herself to be a feminist. And I think that, that this book is a really frequently looked at piece of literature from a feminist lens. How do we feel about it?
Speaker 4:I have two sort of thoughts on it. The first one is that I sort of love that men or males in general, like men and boys are only mentioned when there's violence and then once the violence is done, they're sort of not mentioned again until the next act of violence. The other thing was that I feel like there were some, there were a lot of instances of internalized feminism, which doesn't necessarily mean that the book isn't feminist or that , um, Toni Morrison herself isn't Femini , uh Yeah. Isn't feminist. But I don't know , it was just interesting to me.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think there's definitely something to be said for how, I mean, we do get the one chapter that's from Charlie's point of view, I guess. Mm-Hmm . So we get a little context to his actions, but we also, I think in that chapter, things fall apart for him when he loses the strong woman on Jimmy. Mm-Hmm . i n his life. Like that's when things go off the rail. M m-Hmm. before that he is loved, he is c ared for and seems like quite a functional person until he then has this act of violence perpetrated on him by the white community with the, I'm not even sure what to call that. It's a horrible scene. Um , b ut basically he's having his first sexual experience and some white men come upon him and make a show out of it and are, it's awful. It's really, really awful. And that seems to be a real inflection point for his life moving forward because his response to that is not to hate the white me n, it's to hate the girl that he was with. Ri ght. Which I think, I thought that was an incredibly powerful bit of feminist thought in that lens to be able to pinpoint so clearly that a man would sooner turn on women than turn on other men. Ye ah. In a situation where the girl in that had nothing to do with anything. She was a victim as well. She
Speaker 1:Was there with you going through it
Speaker 2:And his hate all got directed onto her. Yes.
Speaker 1:And it was interesting how they, I think, I think, I don't know if I read it in the book or read it somewhere, that they were like, you know, he, he literally turned against the black woman that he was with as opposed to these white men who put both of them in that situation to begin with. Like
Speaker 3:Yeah. And the way she writes and frames that is really interesting too because it, it kind of guides the reader to it, right? Like in case you weren't there with her already, she was just kind of guiding you into it . Like, and you know, naturally you would think that his anger would be on the white men , but you know, it wasn't, he, you know, put his anger onto the black woman in that scene. But yeah, so I agree that I think that she, she does let her perspective kind of like bleed into that book. And that's why I do think that there is a lot of it that kind of has that feminist lens.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I do think that other than that, you know, the men are pretty inconsequential in this book other than inflict of violence or kind of non-res earners, you know, the community is the women. Yeah . And we see several examples of community with the women. The prostitutes have their own community and they're the only community that cares for cola at all. You know, they are the, in a weird way, they're kind of the model of a good community. They accept each other, they accept her. They've found a way to survive,
Speaker 1:Which I think shows range in itself because it's just like, you know, I feel like the , and and I think in a text that maybe is not feminist or not as feminist, those women would've been viewed as like the bad as most of the community kind of sees them. But you get that range, you know,
Speaker 2:Are the three prostitutes, the archangels, <laugh>. I keep going back to the religious thing because I think there's actually a whole lot going on there. Possibly. I mean, I, and then you have the like, marginalized girl giving birth to and horrible circumstances. But the baby itself is the product of hope for Claudia and Frieda and then the baby dies for the sins of everybody. Like I, there's something there, and I don't know if I'm sophisticated enough to put it together, but I think she's doing something really intentional and extremely complicated in the writing there too.
Speaker 1:Sounds like there needs to be a part two <laugh>
Speaker 2:With a professor <laugh> somebody better . Yeah. I don't know. Feminism is, it's complicated because again, I think it kind of goes back to how much you read the book is an indictment of various people because it is definitely, I think an indictment of some of those communities, like you're saying. But I don't think that's because they're women. Right. Whereas I think that when we're, when we're seeing strength in the book, like we are supposed to believe it's because they're women. Mm-Hmm . You know , like even with Claudia and Frieda, they're really strong little girls man. Like, they have all manner of courage and pluck and we don't get any sense of any male characters like that. Even the other children, the other boys are like very quick to succumb to peer pressure and be absolutely terrible to everybody. Lewis is a little sociopath. And then Sammy, his response to everything is just to continually run away from it. Right. He never really stays in faces. I mean, I guess he does kind of like clock his dad with something that was in the house during the one DV episode. But I think the men are generally shown as much weaker than the women. Charlie quickly, you know, succumbs to his lust and his drunkenness to commit this atrocity. You know, same to some level with soap at church being he's weak, you know, again and again he gives into like his more base impulses. Um, whereas I think the women are shown to have much more like strength and survival skills and, and more influence honestly. Like the women are driving the communities at every step of the way. 'cause even like in the, in Charlie's childhood and Aunt Jimmy has like got all this respect from her community. And when the community comes together to deal with her death and take care of expenses and, and do all of this, you really only see the women doing all the work. You know? I don't know. Any other thoughts on Toni Morrison as feminist author?
Speaker 3:I think the way that she wrote like different perspectives, I think in it's in itself pretty feminist because she could have just made the men just the violent figures, but then she did have the perspective, like t's perspective on things. And so I think she was essentially trying to understand, or trying to be understanding and wanting people to come at his story from an understanding perspective as well, which is I think feminist within itself. Right. Because it's essentially just trying to make him like a full on character. Right? Like you, you understand that it's that yes, he made the choices that he made, but a lot of his surrounding was very like Mm-Hmm . societal influences that made him right. Like hate himself essentially. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I will say, I'm like kind of going personal on this, but the rape scene of Pecola is incredibly hard to read would be no matter how you wrote it, incest is awful and it's a violent act. And it, and she's so little. She's just the little kid when it happens to her. But like Darlene was saying, I think the way that it's written from Charlie's perspective, you know, there's a lot of delving into his sort of complex thoughts about the act and what's going through his mind at the time. Mm-Hmm. And he's dealing with these sort of competing urges of hate and love and lust and being drunk and wanting to inflict violence, but also wanting to be tender towards this little girl. You know, when I, in a previous career I worked sex abuse investigations, child sex abuse investigations. And I will say that this is probably the closest description of an event in terms of matching perpetrator interviews that I had, which I should h ave done more research on this to know what Toni Morrison's backgrounds and experiences were and what she was drawing from when she wrote that. But the language used there a nd the way that he d escribes the act is very much what I would hear when I was doing perpetrator interviews and when they would admit to what they have done, it was often couched in this kind of language like that I hated myself for doing this. I was trying to love them. I
Speaker 5:Almost like an excuse.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Or
Speaker 5:Like to like, like that's their
Speaker 2:Logic . There's a rationalization in their head . Yeah. But they still know it was very wrong. And Charlie does too. I mean like that's very clear through line there that he knows what he's doing because like he's is a very wrong thing. Yeah. 'cause he's still looking at our like, but the very, I still hate her. Yes. And the very wrong thing is part of what's turning him on. I think that's explicitly said in one of the sentences in that scene. Yeah. And that's very, very true in my experience to what actually happens in those moments with, with those situations. So I do think it's interesting that she chose to write it that way and on some level maybe humanize him, but it's a really complex depiction of an event . Right . It
Speaker 3:Doesn't, not to absolve them .
Speaker 2:Right. Like, and, and contrast that to Tiana. This is not the first book we've had a <laugh> rape or child molestation seen . And it's, it's, we've had it in several of the books that we've read, but they've almost always been from the point of view of the child experiencing it. Mm-Hmm ., I think this is the first time we've ever seen it from the lens of the perpetrator. That's really interesting. Why do we think she chose to write it that way?
Speaker 4:I would say it could be in contrast to, you said you didn't know how to describe what happened to Charlie. I was thinking that like to me it's sexual assault. I think so too . Um , so he probably didn't have the words for it. And so he's self-medicated with alcohol and um, you know, not an excuse, but so what he did to cola , he's describing that and he also described sort of his own, like what happened to him, the sexual violence that happened to him. And so , um, one sort of resulted in hate the other is sort of a mix of hate and as much love as Charlie could possibly muster .
Speaker 2:It's twisted, but Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . But it's there like for, it's not worth anything, but it is there. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah . Because do we know when, like how old Charlie was when that happened to him?
Speaker 2:Said he was No, he was 12. 12. Oh
Speaker 4:Wow. So around the same age as Yeah .
Speaker 3:Which I mean I think it's like a theme that's often I think explored in literature like that someone's like that someone stays at an age in which they experience like trauma. And so he has never been able to like understand like love or his, like his sexual feeling . Like all of that has been stunted at Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> a really young age.
Speaker 2:We do actually have a kind of nuance to look at female sexuality with Mrs. Breedlove as well. Mm . mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . Um, there's the part where she's kind of describing when times were good Yeah. With Charlie and it's a really healthy description Yeah . Of a sexual encounter for a woman. And it , it's very centered, you know, at a time he was centered on her having equal pleasure to him in the event. And especially things were working bad ,
Speaker 1:Especially in comparison to when you read about junior's mother, whatever her Gerald. Yeah . Who was
Speaker 3:Gerald Always Geraldine
Speaker 2:Thought she had to lie still and tolerate it
Speaker 1:When she said like, why couldn't there be a better spot? Like where I don't have to like lift up. She said under my arm. I was like, what is happening? Sorry. I know that's not supposed to be funny, but like it , that's the comparison to me. That's what I thought of it.
Speaker 2:There's so much happening in this book. Yeah . Like I just, I feel like there's so very much on every page and there's so much nuance in how she explores all of these different viewpoints that she writes from. Yeah. Like she really inhabits so many of the characters in this book as an author and they're all so distinct and I feel
Speaker 1:Like they could each have their own like story in itself. Mm-Hmm . .
Speaker 2:Yes. You could totally see everyone in this book that gets a chapter getting a book. Yeah . And you'd wanna read it. Yeah . And there would be enough there. They're that rich and developed, I think. Yeah . Mm-Hmm. . Okay. Before we move on from discussion, were there other things that we wanted to make sure we talked about with this book?
Speaker 3:I think something I just wanted to note on rereading it is that as difficult as this book is to kind of get through, I don't think that any of the violence is like, just for violence sake. Right.
Speaker 2:It's not gratuitous ever. I agree with you
Speaker 3:For me, but Toni Morrison, everything felt nec not necessary, what's the word? But like, intentional. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> like, it felt intentional. Like she was trying to say something here and it wasn't just to like it wasn't shock value.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It wasn't like a , and then, and then, and then I think that, and I'm typically somebody, I don't like rereading books because I'm just like, it's so many other books that I to read but re to read for the first time. But I feel like this is a book to reread. And I definitely, this is my first reread, but I don't think it will be my last,
Speaker 2:It's a book to study, I think, like , honestly. Yeah . There's so much there. And
Speaker 1:I want to read for
Speaker 2:A first novel. Yeah . Like, I think it's a staggering work to produce as your first novel <laugh> . I mean, sure. I think that I went back and I looked at like critical reception of it and stuff. I did a little bit research just not as much as I should have <laugh> and some people like objected, I think, to that. There were some simplistic language a couple of times, and you can see that. Yes. Are there a couple of sentences here and there that maybe she would've wanted back? Sure. But the scope of this book, and it's, it's a pretty tightly edited book, I will say. Mm-Hmm . . Like, it really is like a handful of sentences that I would think she would want back. Yeah. Um, I think it's incredible for a first book. Yeah . I just, you know , uh, blown away by this book and she just gets better hawa , keep going. Yeah .
Speaker 1:Read in like order of, like
Speaker 2:Release. I think that's a smart way to do it. And some of them do link together too, so. Yeah. Yeah. I, one thing this is not important and maybe doesn't make it into the Cut, but <laugh> , were either of you on Tree Grows in Brooklyn?
Speaker 3:No . That , not
Speaker 2:Me . Okay. The , and this was before your time. Yeah. <laugh> . The , the candy buying scene with the penny candy. Yeah. It is. I think I noted it somewhere in the book, but like, it is so , uh, an echo of, there's an almost identical scene in Trigo in Brooklyn, and I think it's, it's really interesting to look at, like, I am positive Tony Morrison read that book. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . It's really interesting to look at Betty Smith looking at some of these very same issues, but with white families and immigrant families in a slightly earlier time period. And then I really feel like this is almost , uh, just like an he apparent it's a , a graduation she's taking , like everything that happened between Betty Smith writing that book and all the literature that like came between it Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> , um, particularly stuff around like the Harlem Renaissance and I mean, Ralph Ellison, it seems like such a clear influence on her and she's just taking it like to another level. And I, I really appreciate that. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> in a book, like where you can have something that to me looks like a definite homage to a very memorable scene in an earlier work, but make it your own and make it say something similar but different. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . Like , it's just really sophisticated writing. I think, again, first time author, I, she's a genius. Y'all,
Speaker 6:I've never seen you gush about an author or a book like this. Like, I was not expecting this
Speaker 2:<laugh> No. I was a mess. I read it again and I just kept going backwards and then I said , I read it the same piece again, and then I'd go backwards again, and then I'd start crying again. And yeah. I just, it's, it's an incredibly powerful book. And like, I, I don't know, this should be mandatory reading to me for like Yeah. Everyone in this country <laugh> . Yeah . I just think it's really important. Um ,
Speaker 3:I haven't like fully formed my thoughts on it, but it's back to the idea of like invisibility and the fact that they really idolized Shirley Temple because they say that like, she's not invisible, like for a child. Mm-Hmm . , she actually like, commands a lot of attention, but like Shirley Temple is very much exploited during her time. It's mentioned. Oh, it is mentioned in it . Oh , I missed
Speaker 2:It. She says somewhere in here, like, things didn't turn out good for Shirley either or something. And I was like, yeah, a again, it's like ,
Speaker 3:Yeah , very .
Speaker 2:That's small. But she she
Speaker 3:Got it right. Okay. I was like, yeah, there must be a reason why she like chose this particular character. I mean, grant , granted, I don't know that there was any other like blue-eyed blonde child that had the level of like commercial success that Shirley Temple did. So she's a powerful symbol just in that way. But yeah. Mirrors the fact that Lala really wants, like, really wants what Shirley Temple has, right. Like command that Mm - Hmm. sort of attention. And then also just like the sexual exploitation. So it, yeah. Like it just all connects in the end.
Speaker 2:Well, and and I think that's a sophisticated feminist lens for viewing that, right? Mm-Hmm. to see Shirley Temple to view her through the eyes of a child. Then flip that, have it acknowledged that like that wasn't a good thing. You know, as much as the kids are being like, oh, I wish it's saying, like, be careful what you wish for because she's objectified. And, you know , uh, yeah. I totally agree with you on that. Um, I guess before we move to this next little bit of script, can we talk about the ending real quick? The end of the book, I, I don't know. I was struck by the last passages. So the final couple of pages begin with, so it was a little black girl yearns for the blue eyes of a little white girl. And the horror at the heart of her yearning is exceeded only by the evil of fulfillment. And then the final sentence is, at least on the edge of my town, among the garbage in the sunflowers of my town, it's much, much, much too late. And what do we think about the ending? How are we supposed to interpret what happens to cola? Um, is it fully dark? Are we supposed to have some hope in there? You know, I I almost feel like she's trying to show, Cola's madness is an indictment of the town. It's an indictment of society and everyone around her. But for cola in the end, is she getting almost a form of salvation to be able to escape into her mind like that and be free? Like she now believes she is beautiful. She now believes she matters even if it's only internal to herself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think so. There's this line here that funny as you're saying that I looked over and saw it says, she, however, stepped over into madness. A madness which protected her from us simply because it brought us in the end. So I feel like yes, to answer your question in a short answer,
Speaker 3:But in a maddening way.
Speaker 1:In a maddening way, yeah.
Speaker 3:Right. Because then you hear Soaphead church, like you read his like dialogue about like how he's basically saying he's doing this for her, right? Like he, he is the only one that's really empathizing with her. He knows what she needs, he understands her deeply. And so he knows that he has to play into this for her sake. And I think you call BS on that when you're reading it. 'cause you're just like, like, who are you to really do that for her? Like, are you really ev doing something for her? And so I think that when she does fall into that mindset, you, you see what he's saying about like how he felt like he was helping her, but then you're like, that's not help . Right. Like understandably, like she can be lost in her, in her own world about it, but
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's clearly not a good outcome. Right. But
Speaker 3:Mean , but you realize like, is that really the best alterna ? I mean
Speaker 2:Well, so that's the thing. And then I get back to the religious thing, right? Like, is a man being murdered on a cross really a good outcome? But we're supposed to believe it is like that that is a salvation in a sense. So is is the old cola being destroyed so that New Cola can live completely internal to herself now?
Speaker 3:Well , wasn't there a little bit of agency in that? At least for, I'm not a really super religious person. Right. But like he, the way that it's framed is that he did that for ,
Speaker 2:He chose it.
Speaker 3:He , yeah, he chose it and being the son of God, he could have gone
Speaker 2:Himself sort of it , but it was also sort of predestined. So did was choice really there. Okay.
Speaker 3:Because
Speaker 2:That's what was promised that he would send his only son to save the world. Like, I don't know, I'm not sure what we're supposed to make of the allegory, but I think that, that there is supposed to be something there. And also with like with Claudia and Frieda being able to find some sort of kernel of hope in the situation I was Pecola destroyed to make us better, you know? And is that what the book is trying to like, we're supposed to be better after we read
Speaker 3:This us the do
Speaker 2:Better like
Speaker 3:Us the reader, but not the community. Exactly. Who apparently we're bored of her. Well,
Speaker 2:It's, yeah. It's, it's too late for Lorraine Ohio. Is it too late for us to take the message she's trying to give? I don't know . It's such a, it's such a complicated book.
Speaker 3:Yeah . Yeah. And I guess 'cause it couldn't have ended in any positive way. No . Yeah . Because there's
Speaker 2:No happy ending to a rape and a dead baby. Yeah. Like, I don't know what that would look like.
Speaker 3:Well, like even if she hadn't thought of that whole ending, it's like, given what she was trying to say, could there have been a happy ending?
Heather:Yeah, I don't think so.
Darlene:Right.
Heather:No, it would've been gross. Like it, an attempt to make a happy ending would've just read really gross, I think.
Darlene:Right.
Heather:I'm glad she did not try to do that.
Darlene:So each episode we ask whether our book passes the Bechtel test. The Bechtel test asks whether a work features two female characters who talk to each other about something that doesn't involve men or boys. So does it pass?
Heather:Oh heck yeah.
Hawa:Yes.
Darlene:Yes.
Heather:Yeah, for sure. Um, so many women, women talking to women <laugh>.
Darlene:Yeah. I mean we had a whole conversation about like how this is primarily about women and like even the men kind of serve to talk about women further. So
Heather:Mm - Hmm. Yeah. Even like this may be the only book in which even the men are focused on the women.
Hawa:Yeah.
Heather:Yeah. The only book that we've written. Not the only book on earth.
Darlene:Yeah. < laugh > .
Heather:I didn't mean to imply that < laugh > .
Hawa:Well, that's it for this episode of These Books Made Me join us next time when we'll discuss a frequently banned book that could serve us great marketing material for Planned Parenthood. If you think you know which book we're tackling next, drop us a tweet. We're @pgcmls on Twitter and #TheseBooksMadeMe.