Blubber

We had such a good experience with Are You There, God? It's Me, Margaret. that we decided to go back to the Judy Blume well as a palate cleanser of sorts post-Sisterhood. Well, you know how it's really gross when you drink orange juice when you were expecting milk? That was sort of how using Blubber as a palate cleanser went. This book was just not what we remembered or what we were expecting. We explored the bullying hellscape that is Ms. Minnish's 5th grade classroom as we tried to suss out the message of the book. We talk about the Blume to horror pipeline, learn about Hawa's hatred of celery and mint, and share our own childhood memories but nothing quite compares to the nightmare that is poor Linda's life in this book.

These Books Made Me is a podcast about the literary heroines who shaped us and is a product of the Prince George's County Memorial Library System podcast network. Stay in touch with us via Twitter @PGCMLS with #TheseBooksMadeMe or by email at TheseBooksMadeMe@pgcmls.info. For recommended readalikes and deep dives into topics related to each episode, visit our blog at https://pgcmls.medium.com/.

We mentioned a lot of topics in this episode. Here’s a brief list of some informative articles and videos about some of them if you want to do your own further research:

Diet fads over time: https://www.harpersbazaar.com/beauty/diet-fitness/g15893190/popular-diet-the-year-you-were-born/

Judy Blume on censorship: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/jul/11/judy-blume-interview-forever-writer-children-young-adults

Transcript

Hawa: 0:05

Hi, I'm Hawa.

Heather: 0:07

Wait, wait. No, hold on. Start again.

Hawa: 0:09

< laugh > . Ok, wait. So we're rolling.

Heather: 0:10

I wasn't ready? Yeah. This way.

Hawa: 0:13

Hi, I'm Hawa.

Ella: 0:14

I'm Ella.

Hannah: 0:15

I'm Hannah.

Heather: 0:16

I'm Heather.

Darlene: 0:17

And I'm Darlene.

Hawa: 0:18

And this is our podcast. These Books Made Me. Today we're diving into Judy Blume's Blubber. Friendly warning as always, this podcast contains spoilers. If you don't yet know who only eats peanut butter sandwiches, proceed with caution. Today to finish off the end of the season, we have the whole podcast team here with us

Heather: 0:36

Woo-hoo.

Multiple speakers: 0:37

woo

Darlene: 0:38

< laugh > .

Ella: 0:39

Was this everyone's first time reading? If not, how did this reread compare to your memories of reading it when you were younger?

Heather: 0:46

It was not my first time reading, and I think I retconned this entire book to make it more palatable to my memory. I remember liking this book when I had my like Judy Blume era. It wasn't my favorite of hers. I really liked otherwise known as Sheila the Great and Are You There God, It's Me, Margaret, but I remember liking the book and I remembered things getting resolved in a more positive way at the end. And that doesn't really happen. So I don't know. I now have like some concerns about myself as a child, like < laugh > . I don't know why like fourth grade me really liked this book,

Ella: 1:25

But same like, I remember really liking it and then I reread it and I was like, why? Why did I like this? I, I, I don't under, I mean like, it's accurate to, I think the kid experience, but I, I don't know what was going on with my young life where I was like, this is a great book, < laugh >.

Heather: 1:41

Hot take. Are we sociopaths?

Ella: 1:43

< laugh > ? Potentially. I mean, I do just read horror books now, so there might be a pipeline -Judy Blume to just horror psychopaths

Heather: 1:53

It pretty much was horror.

Hawa: 1:55

Honestly, I have to say, if this was just torture porn,

Ella: 1:58

It really, yeah,

Hawa: 1:59

This was my first time reading it and um, yeah. Least favorite book of the, the entire podcast.

Darlene: 2:09

That's saying a lot.

Ella: 2:10

Yeah.

Darlene: 2:11

Yeah. Because we went into a Sisterhood of the Traveling pants, so,

Ella: 2:15

Yeah.

Hawa: 2:16

Yeah.

Darlene: 2:16

So this is the worst one then that is saying a lot.

Ella: 2:19

Sometimes when the books shape us, it's not in good ways.

Hawa: 2:22

Right. <laugh>.

Darlene: 2:24

Yeah. But I agree with Ella. Like I do think that it is very indicative of childhood at the time because it, it felt, it rang true. But yeah, I was also very surprised maybe cuz I don't really think back to elementary school that often < laugh > and then like this book was sort of like a wake up call. Like no, we were all a little, you know, a little terrible at that age I think.

Hawa: 2:47

I was nice. No, I'm kidding. < laugh > .

Ella: 2:50

Well, I think especially her use of calling everything like dumb.

Disembodied Voice: 2:54

Big dummy.

Ella: 2:54

I remember calling everything dumb.

Darlene: 2:56

Yeah.

Ella: 2:56

I'm like, that's very accurate,

Darlene: 2:58

< laugh > . And I think just picking up on little things that like adults did and like thinking you were a little older than you actually were, because she makes such a big distinction between herself and her younger brother. , who's only a year younger I wanna say. And yeah. And it's like, no, she's just as childish, but she just considers herself so much older. She knows more things.

Heather: 3:20

Wasn't there something that she had on that she was like, oh, this makes me look even 12 maybe or 13

Ella: 3:24

the hat!

: 3:25

13!

Darlene: 3:25

Yeah.

Ella: 3:25

She wore her mom's like old gray hat and she's like, now I look like a 13 year old.

Darlene: 3:32

<laugh>.

Hawa: 3:32

< laugh > like girl.

Hannah: 3:34

So I, it's my turn to be the adult reading this for the first time. I read Judy Blume as a kid, but I missed this one when I was the target audience for it. And pretty horrifying as an adult. I think it's a very well executed book. I want to say like, I'm definitely not dissing Judy Bloom's writing. I think she's very good at what she does, but it's, it's pretty bleak. This portrayal of kids bullying other kids. Judy Blume was born Judy Sussman on February 12th, 1938 for the majority of her childhood. She grew up in Elizabeth, New Jersey with her parents and older brother David. However, when Judy was in third grade, the entire family except her father Rudolph moved to Miami Beach, Florida. For the sake of David's health, he was recovering from a kidney infection and the Florida climate was supposed to be beneficial. They lived in Miami Beach for two years. Judy was an avid reader and attended an all girls high school called Baton High before earning a BA from New York University in 1960. She married a lawyer named John Blume the year before she graduated 1959, which was also the year that her father died. The couple had two children together, a daughter Randy Lee and a son, Lawrence Andrew. John and Judy woud divorce in 1975. Blume began writing stories and books from her children were still very young. Her first published book with a picture book entitled, the One in the Middle is The Green Kangaroo. In 1969, her next published work was Iggy's House in 1970, Blume would also publish Are You There? God, it's Me, Margaret in 1970, which would become one of her best known books and make her a well-known voice in fiction for readers at the cusp of young adulthood. Blume continued to pen novels devoted to the experience of growing up with frankness and humor. Her novels continued to stir controversy in account of the topics they covered, but they continued to sell well and often win awards. Blubber was published in 1974. Blume continued to write books for young readers and later branched out into adult fiction as well. Bloom has remarried twice and she owned the bookstore with her husband, George Cooper called Books and Books in Key West Florida. She has received multiple awards and honors, including but not limited to the Margaret A. Edwards Award for lifetime Achievement. The National Book Foundation's Medal for contributions to American Letters and an honorary doctorate in letters from Yale.

Heather: 6:10

Alright, plot summary of this very bleak book, grade at the Hillside School in Miss Minish's class is everything you'd expect. Kickball games, lunches that get a little outta hand. Halloween costume contest and a campaign of relentless bullying that Regina George would find over the top. Class reports on mammals lead to Linda, a shy, overweight girl in the class being dubbed Blubber by her classmates. Narrator Jill Brenner is initially extremely willing to take part in tormenting Linda by following Queen Bee Wendy's lead. The other students in the class steal Linda's lunch, force her to say humiliating things, trip her, pants her, and subject her to bullying about her weight, her teeth, and her smell. Jill's life outside of being horrible to Linda consists of living with her chain smoking, but trying to quit Mother, her lawyer father, and her Guinness Book of World Records quoting younger brother Jill's lifelong bestie is Tracy Wu, who is in the other fifth grade class. Jill and Tracy get into trouble on Halloween when they leave rotten eggs in the mailbox of the neighborhood. Grump Mr. Machinist, That's a wild name. < laugh > . Um , Is, am I pronouncing that right? Is that, oh how everyone,

Darlene: 7:23

that was how the audiobook pronounced it too.

Heather: 7:26

Okay. <laugh>, That's not a name and I don't know what we're supposed to take from that < laugh > . Anyways, Mr. Machinist somehow discovers that Jill and Tracy were the culprits in spite of their pillowcase covered heads. Jill decides that Linda narced on them and Wendy proposes putting Linda on trial. Tracy objects to the trial and says there isn't enough evidence to hold Linda responsible, which incurs Wendy's wrath and results in Wendy calling Tracy a slur, infuriating Jill, who derails Linda's trial in response. Wendy then turns all of her bullying and organizing energy towards Jill. Jill is now on the receiving end of the same type of abuse she's so willingly inflicted on Linda. Linda happily joins in with the bullying of Jill as Wendy has now taken Linda into her clique. After a few days of this, Jill stands up for herself and destabilizes Wendy's tyrannical regime by driving a wedge between Wendy and her bestie Caroline. Jill befriends Rochelle, the one person in class who wasn't awful to her or Linda. And the cliques in the class shatter and reorganized into different groups. Linda, however, is again on the outs and the book ends with Linda once again eating alone at lunch. It's truly the darkest book we've read.

Darlene: 8:38

Yeah, yeah. I, I thought for a children's book it really would end on a more positive note.

Heather: 8:48

Yeah, it doesn't,

Darlene: 8:49

Yeah. And I don't know that any of her other books are quite like that either.

Heather: 8:54

I just don't trust my memory now

Darlene: 8:57

< laugh > . That's true. That's true.

Heather: 8:58

Because I didn't remember this being so bleak in the end.

Ella: 9:02

I think because when I , I was a child, I focused so much on Jill and like, oh, Jill overcame, like when they bullied her and completely forgot one that she was the bully in the first part. And two, like poor Linda does just end by herself at the end.

Hawa: 9:15

Like even Jill who was on the bullying and kind of found a friend in Rochelle, like for when she's not with Tracy. But then Linda's just like, what <laugh> like everybody just kind of paired off as like as if you can't be friends in groups of threes or fours. Like

Ella: 9:32

What an intense year for her though. Like she went from kind of just like being alone to being the center of bullying, to being part of the like cool girls to then just being alone again.

Singing voice: 9:42

Alone Again actually.

Ella: 9:46

Like what an emotional rollercoaster that year was.

Darlene: 9:49

Yeah

Heather: 9:50

I don't know. I'm also starting to wonder if I maybe conflated this book with another book. Oh, fifth grade is isn't Easy. Fifth grade it by Bartha Clements.

Darlene: 10:02

Oh Yeah.

Heather: 10:03

And I think I kind of maybe mixed Elsie and Linda up some or like, just cuz I, I, when I started this I was like, Linda, I don't remember that being the girl's name. < laugh > .

Ella: 10:16

< laugh > . What? I don't remember. What I don't know is how Bruce made it through this whole book.

Heather: 10:20

Unscathed really.

Ella: 10:22

unscathed, larger picks his nose with like a fever. Like

Heather: 10:27

He has a nose picking plan.

Ella: 10:29

He has like a system.

Heather: 10:31

special nose picking paper.

Hawa: 10:33

This isn't either one has a. paper yellow desk.

Heather: 10:35

Yeah. Hide the boogers on

Ella: 10:37

Like how did you make it through

Disembodied Voice: 10:40

Up your nose we do not behold?

Darlene: 10:42

Sexism.

Hawa: 10:43

<lau gh > , right?

Darlene: 10:44

< laugh > . Um, yeah, I mean the book itself is a lot on how I guess the girls kind of tear each other apart based on like their looks. Right. Um, which kind of points to one of the topics that we wanted to discuss with this book, which is sort of the weird feminism in it where it's like, it almost is a feminist book but not, doesn't quite land. But what did you guys think about it?

Hawa: 11:11

It's like, I wanna believe that maybe there was supposed to be like a message or something in this book, but I'm try, I try to think about like who this book was geared towards.

Darlene: 11:20

Mm - hmm.

Hawa: 11:20

And I'm just like, if there was a message, I don't know if they would've picked up on it.

Darlene: 11:24

I think that's a good way to think about it though, to see like, think about who the intended audience was and what they would've gotten from it. Because I kept thinking that too. I was like, when I read this, would I have picked up on what she's trying to say? Like I think I'm thinking about it as an adult now and uh, I was talking about this with Heather, but I feel like as an adult that the message is what , uh, Jill's mom says about how just life isn't fair essentially. And that tracks as like an adult. But I don't think that that's the message I would've gotten from it when I was a kid because that just doesn't feel like the kind of like mentality I would've had back then.

Hannah: 12:05

The message of the book

Darlene: 12:06

< laugh > , we're ready. Please walk us through it.

Hannah: 12:08

So , um, bit of a tangent. My father used to that my sister and I, my sister and I down and have us watch these really trippy movies from the seventies when we were kids that he loved that had really weird unsatisfying endings that wrapped up nothing, told you, nothing, you didn't know what happened. You would want to throw popcorn at the screen when you were done. This book was published in the seventies. Is this the kids literary version of a seventies unsatisfying ending film?

Darlene: 12:37

That's interesting. Yeah

Hawa: 12:38

That's not as crazy as I thought you were gonna say to be honest.

Ella: 12:40

Yeah.

Darlene: 12:41

That was actually, cause that does lent itself to the discussion. Like how did it hold up? Like is it indicative of its time too?

Heather: 12:47

Well, can we circle back though, because you both read it as kids too. Mm - hmm., my memory was that this book was Bullying Is Bad was the message.

Disembodied Voice: 12:57

So don't be bad...[unintelligible]

Ella: 13:01

Yeah,

Heather: 13:01

This is the bullying book and I remember it as the fat shaming book because one of the reasons that we chose this was Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants had a lot of body shaming language in it. And this was like, oh, well let's look at a book that tackles a similar issue maybe, but from a different angle. And I remembered this as being like, hey, it's not okay to fat-shame people, it's not okay to bully people book. And as an adult I'm reading it. And that's not really the message that lands, even though I think that, you know, from the back matter of my book, Judy Blume was saying she wrote this in response to her daughter being sort of the Rochelle in her class. So she wasn't part of the bullying, but she was seeing bullying going on in her school and was bothered by it and didn't really know how to handle it. And so Judy Blume wrote it as a, like, if you see something, say something book,

Hawa: 13:55

Did Rochelle, Rochelle say anything?

Heather: 13:58

But no one, no one really does speak up. And yeah, so, you know, I think maybe she was trying to frame it as a identify with Jill, which is very hard to do as an adult because she's awful, awful to Linda. But identify with Jill. And then when it gets turned on Jill, you see like, oh, well yeah, that would really suck. Like, look, that's hurting Jill. So like, you're supposed to get empathy via.

Darlene: 14:27

mm - hmm.

Heather: 14:28

the narrator's lens. I don't, it doesn't work for me as an adult because you dislike Jill so much, but maybe as a kid I read this and it was like, yeah, a lot of people say stupid stuff to people. A lot of people are mean. And like, I didn't, maybe I wasn't grasping the totality of how awful it was.

Ella: 14:49

I feel like if the book started out with Rochelle, like not participating, but also like there and then moved to like they were the target and then I think it would've been more successful. But like you said, like Jill is not nice.

Heather: 15:01

She's an enthusiastic participant in this.

Ella: 15:04

She is like she, no one makes her make that Halloween costume.

Heather: 15:07

And even, even Tracy, you know, I think we're supposed to empathize with Tracy in this. Like, she said, Hey, this trial isn't good, like y'all are setting this girl up. And then she gets called a slur. But like Jill's been telling Tracy about this campaign of cruelty towards Linda and Tracy's just kinda like, yeah, okay, whatever. Like it's just part of the day. So she's not particularly relatable. Like no one ever says this is wrong about stuff that's objectively wrong. The thing that they say is wrong is like, well she needs an attorney at her trial < laugh > , which is like a weird, like principled stand to take that has nothing to do with Linda < laugh > .

Ella: 15:49

There was never any lesson learned clearly.

Heather: 15:50

No,

Darlene: 15:50

Yeah.

Hawa: 15:52

Yeah. And you know, for a second I thought there were gonna go in a direction where it was gonna be like, so you know, they're at the bar mitzvah, the bar mitzvah and um, you know, Kenny's talking to Linda and they're having a really good time and I was thinking maybe she'll, Jill will be like, oh, you know, she's actually kind of cool after all. Or you know, like she, she thinks, you know, she thinks my my annoying little brother is funny. Like maybe she's not so bad. And it just was not like that. It was really more like a don't tell anybody you saw me here type thing. < laugh > or I don't know. You don't tell my mom <laugh>,

Ella: 16:19

She was ready to bully both of them. She was ready to bully her brother and Linda.

Hawa: 16:24

Yeah.

Heather: 16:24

Now Kenny was probably the most likable character in the book.

Multiple speakers: 16:27

[Unintelligible]

Heather: 16:27

He's the only person that was just like, his girl thinks she's been reincarnated like six times. She was pretty cool.

Ella: 16:33

Yeah.

Heather: 16:33

She listened to all of my weird facts. She's awesome. I'd hang out with her. .

Darlene: 16:37

Yeah. I feel like Kenny and her's friend , uh, Kenny and Linda's friendship are like brief friendship in the book is probably the nicest like respite I think during the whole thing because I was also like, oh that's so sweet. And then, then I think that's another thing that kind of signaled to me like, oh I don't have a positive ending. But yeah, like Hawa said, it didn't < laugh > and I was very confused as well.

Heather: 17:01

No, there was no redemption arc for Jill at all.

Darlene: 17:04

Yeah.

Ella: 17:04

One thing, kind of like what you said about what I was supposed to get maybe was supposed to get outta the book as a child, I walked away from this book thinking if you are mean to people, people are going to be mean to you. So there was like no lesson learned. It was like a cautionary tale.

Hawa: 17:16

< laugh >.

Ella: 17:17

Like if you are mean to people, they will turn around and be mean to you, so don't do it.

Heather: 17:22

Yeah. And maybe that was the actual lesson here, it's just be scared, don't do this rather than don't do this because that's a really horrible thing to do to another human being.

Ella: 17:35

That was my mom's kind of version of parenting. So I mean, it fits with the, the whole theme of my childhood. Like, don't do this and you should be scared to do this now.

Heather: 17:44

And I guess, you know, now that you say that, I mean how many things do we do that on rather than like actually strive for real empathy? I mean, how many times do you hear people tell a guy like, what if it was your mom or your sister?

Hawa: 17:57

Yeah.

Heather: 17:57

Or as though like, it just being a woman doesn't register as a human being. So like you need to somehow make it about them. And this is maybe doing the same thing, like it's still never registered to Jill that like Linda's a human being that didn't deserve to be treated like that. She was just like, oh, it sucks to be treated like that

Hawa: 18:16

And

Heather: 18:16

I don't wanna be treated like that anymore. Well I guess I'll stand up for this and now everybody's doing something different.

Ella: 18:23

She didn't even stand up for her because if they had had a lawyer for her, like she would, the the book would've just continued.

Hawa: 18:29

Yeah. < laugh > . And I think the closest it got to it was when, you know , um, what's the girl is the girl's name Wendy?

Darlene: 18:35

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, the the mean girl.

Hawa: 18:37

The bad girl, the mean girl. Yeah. When Wendy says, you know, uses the slur about Tracy, she's like, oh, you hang out with, you know, whatever. And um, that's kind of the closest she gets to kind of like, you know, and again that was another point where I was, okay, maybe she'll see that, you know, this is wrong and instead it's just more of like a, well now everybody turns against her for, for standing up. And I use it in quotes cuz it's just like, first of all, that was your best friend. You really could have done a better job of standing up for her to be honest. Like.

Darlene: 19:08

Yeah.

Hawa: 19:08

But , um,

Ella: 19:10

Well, the book even talks about that. Like she's come across that issue with this slur before and so it's not even like she's standing up to her for the first time. Yeah. It's, oh, I should stand up to her when I hear this about her.

Heather: 19:23

Yeah. And it does come across too is like, it's not entirely about Tracy. Like she's mad about that, but then her response is more like, I'm gonna mess Wendy's. [bleep] up < laugh > . Like it's not, I'm gonna take this stand because this is a wrong thing to do. I'm gonna teach her a lesson for saying that. It's just like, no, now you've really upset me. I'm just gonna like have my revenge tour now.

Darlene: 19:51

Yeah. And I, I wonder if it's because we're so used to books for this age group being kind of like hit you over the head. It's kind of like an afternoon special. Like this is how you should really like tackle these issues. Right. Like this is bad and this is why and it really spells it out for you. But I think in this one, I mean yes, I think the messaging got very like muddled. But what I think that she does really well is capture what their mindset would be.

Ella: 20:22

Mm-hmm.

Darlene: 20:23

Because Jill's not an adult. Right? Like she can't really process anything that Well, so for me it makes sense that even when she's bullied and then she ends up being bullied for her own, like for her body as well still doesn't like register in her mind that what she's, she still calls Linda Blubber. So I just feel like it makes sense for fifth grader to kind of not really have any sort of take home from this experience. Um, but yeah, like I, I can't quite figure out if it's that Judy Blume did a really good job of capturing what the mindset of a like fifth grader would be or if it's just that she's such an adult writing a child that she's trying to just be like as realistic about it. Um, but not wanting to like hit you over the head with the messaging. I can't quite figure out like which it is and I don't know, maybe I'm just like making , um, maybe I'm just trying to like give her the benefit of the doubt just cuz I mean I read a lot of Judy Blume books growing up.

Ella: 21:30

Well I do think, I was gonna say, I do think as an adult what really kind of, for me, the parts that I really think about that are the conversations that Jill has with her mother.

Darlene: 21:40

Mm-hmm.

Ella: 21:41

I feel like those are really accurate to, I don't wanna say like survivalist of like one day at a time in fifth grade, but mm-hmm, the like emotional roller coaster that all of them kind of go on on a day-to-day basis. I feel like it's pretty accurate as far as like no, it's not gonna work out. Like no one liked me today and today is the rest of my life and like nothing you say is gonna make it better. And at that point I do think that it was kind of accurate to writing in that mindset. But I, I agree with you that like there were some parts where I was like, hmm, I don't know if you were successful with this

Heather: 22:13

To go back to Hawa saying, this was her least favorite of the books that we've read. Sisterhood takes that for me and I think the difference is that in well, okay, one difference is that book was racist on page one and this one at least starting off strong.

Darlene: 22:30

Yes.

Heather: 22:30

Take a stand on like, hey it's not okay to call people racial slurs rather than like I'm going to make a racial slur like on paragraph two. Good point. Yeah. < laugh > . So like the self-awareness helps this one, but I think that the, the writing here is actually very good.

Hawa: 22:48

Yeah.

Ella: 22:48

Mm-hmm.

Heather: 22:49

I mean if like this could totally be like a field study. Like this is just a snapshot of someone documented what was going on in a fifth grade class for this chunk of time. Like it's incredibly realistic. I think kids are awful to each other. There was brutally awful to each other.

Hawa: 23:06

I have a question for y'all. Mm - hmm. . Okay so some of, okay, so I do feel like, you know, a lot of it did feel accurate but then some of it felt kind of like, oh my God this is really, really bad. Like they're like pulling up her skirt and like so to showing her underwear and like making her kiss this other boy. Like is that not

Heather: 23:24

That's but like did that you didn't have any experiences like that in grade did school cuz like kids got pantsed at my school. < laugh > , bra straps got snapped

Ella: 23:32

At my, so it was very scientific in my middle school I went to a Catholic middle school and you wore a skirt until like fifth grade and then sixth through eighth you got to wear a skirt. But you would always wear shorts underneath for that very reason. Just in case

Hawa: 23:45

I was so horrified for her. Like maybe this is me. I think this is me reading this as a, you know, like it just felt so bad. <laugh>.

Ella: 23:52

it was very like first off, where are the adults? Cause the most time they're like by themselves. Yeah. And two like, like Lord of the Flies as like mob mentality.

Heather: 24:02

But that being said again like I think that it does capture something, right? So like I have this vivid memory of middle school also went to a Catholic school and we had a substitute teach gym and decided dodgeball was a good plan and of course it went like totally off the rails. And at one point I remember him saying like, this is like Lord of the Flies <laugh>. And It is like it's things go that mode very quickly in between years I think. So like to me this is accurate. It's, it's what happens if the girls are running the show and it goes total mean girls right out of the gate. Part of what has me torn on this book is I'm asking myself is the reason that it bothers me so much as an adult that it's not giving a clear message. Like have I turned into that parent that wants like a morality tale?

Darlene: 24:55

Mm - hmm.

Heather: 24:55

In every story. Because if we were reading this as an adult book, none of us would bat an eye at it. It would be like, oh this is a very well drawn depiction of a [squawk]time in somebody's life. Why do we have a different standard for the kids' book? Cuz it clearly worked for us when we were kids.

Ella: 25:13

I feel like though if I was a kid reading it now though, it's so dated in the portrayal in a way that, you know, you'd see those anti-bullying commercials where people get slammed into lockers and like yeah that happens. But also like it didn't really happen like that

Heather: 25:29

But like does this seem this far re yes it's dated but like to me reading this, does this seem that far removed to the kind of stuff that kids do to each other on social media now?

Ella: 25:39

That's a good point. I guess because I feel like things like move faster. Like for all the bullying that happened in the book, it was pretty slow and they kept with like the same insult. But I do feel like a true bullying campaign.

Heather: 25:52

So how much time actually elapses in this book?

Hawa: 25:55

That's a good question.

Heather: 25:55

because I viewed this as a few weeks,

Hawa: 25:58

Right? Cuz there's Halloween. Halloween is the only time that's really like dated. I think

Hannah: 26:03

They mentioned at the end of the book that it's a month before Christmas because she says to her dad,

Darlene: 26:09

Oh yeah.

Hannah: 26:09

She shows him her nails and she says, our deal's still on cuz I think I can grow them in time, you know, so it's like end of November presumably.

Darlene: 26:18

Okay, That's like a few weeks. Yeah. So just a few weeks.

Hawa: 26:20

That was probably the worst few weeks of her life. < laugh > . Oh my gosh. Yeah. So to answer your question, I think my issue with the book is the fact that I do feel like there is no like resolution. And I think because it covers such and you know, I I I was, I was really asking myself that same question like am I that person that expects there to be some kind of resolution at like the end of a book? Because, so yesterday I actually had this book sitting on my table and my sister's uh, b est friend came over with her with, with her her daughter, which is my older sister's goddaughter. And she was like, oh hey um , d o you need this book? And I was like, I do need it for a podcast for work, but you know, I can let you borrow it when she's - When I'm done she's eight. I probably would not give her this book because um, or at least you know, if I were to give it to her, they would have to be conversations had around it just because I don't want it to be that person where it's like there has to be some kind of resolution. But as an eight year old and this book says it's for eight to 12 , what kind of message would she take away from that? Not every book has to have a message you take away from it. But I do think when you read it at an age like that where it is kind of formative, she's growing up, what would you read this and take away from it? Right? Or even as a kid, like if you're a larger kid or fat kid and you read this, what would your takeaway from that be? Would you end up feeling worse about yourself? And I think that's kind of why I have the issue with it that I do.

Ella: 27:42

Why -

Hawa: 27:43

But I'm still feeling it out. I dunno, < laugh > ,

Ella: 27:44

I think if the book wasn't so focused on that as like the plot of the book, then I think that I agree that it wouldn't be as important to me as an adult that it has some sort of resolution. But because the entire book is focused on the bullying, it does feel like it should resolve. Like I think if it was just kind of like a slice of life, like coming of age book, I don't think I would be bothered.

Hawa: 28:07

Yes. Like The Skin I'm In, right? Like reading that book, I thought that the most of the story was gonna be like people making fun of her because she was dark skinned and while that was a part of the story, it wasn't the whole story.

Darlene: 28:19

Mm - hmm

Heather: 28:19

Well and she also got a happy ending too.

Hawa: 28:21

Yes, exactly.

Heather: 28:22

I agree.

Hawa: 28:22

But also if she hadn't, which she did, if she hadn't, I would've understood because I feel like as a book that's geared towards teens, they maybe may have more of a life experience. You're a kid that's experiencing bullying and you're reading this, this isn't gonna make you feel any better about what you're going through.

Heather: 28:39

No, definitely not. I kind of wonder though, if you're a kid that's not experiencing bullying and you are the Rochelle in your class or whatever and you're just seeing stuff going on, do you read this and think somebody should have done something? Because it seems like Judy Blume is saying that that's what the point of the book was. I don't know how effective that is.

Hawa: 28:57

I would've liked it better if it ended with Rochelle being friends with Linda.

Darlene: 29:00

Mm.

Heather: 29:01

Yeah. I think I, I'm stuck on < laugh > the poor Linda at the end. She's alone again.

Disembodied singing voice: 29:09

Alone again naturally.

Heather: 29:12

You know, I,

Ella: 29:13

I think like how I said like why can't you make groups of three < laugh > ? Why can't you? And the other thing too is like she's seen Jill stand up for herself and it worked. So like now is the prime time for you to try that too.

Hawa: 29:25

And She did it when it was just her and Jill. She was like, don't try that with me or also I'm gonna go snitch.

Darlene: 29:30

Yeah,

Ella: 29:31

We know you can do it.

Darlene: 29:32

Yeah.

Heather: 29:32

But like I guess what's her leverage with the rest of the class Is sort of.

Hawa: 29:36

Yeah. Cuz it's harder when it's a group

Heather: 29:38

The issue.

Hawa: 29:39

And then, and then they probably would keep doing it and then call her a snitch on top of that. So.

Heather: 29:44

Yeah.

Darlene: 29:44

But, and that one's also strange cuz I felt, felt like Blume the way that she was writing it was kind of also being a little like, I think she was also passing a little bit of judgment on like the character of Linda and saying that what Jill understood was really important, which is that you have to make your own way in the world and sometimes it's you having to like put yourself out there and like Linda just didn't do that. So Jill in the end is the one that goes up to Rochelle and makes friends with her. But Linda never really does that. And so that's why Linda's alone. But I mean, going back to what Hawa said, I think that the, it is important to make that distinction that I think that this book, I think it is a good book, but I think that it requires a discussion about it because I, in fifth grade and you know, into middle school, you are kind of like exploring like a morality. Mm - hmm. And you are trying to figure out what's right and what's wrong. And you're often, you do give in to like peer pressure very often. These are all things that you're thinking through and this is a really good book to like read and then have that discussion and then question the child reading it. Like how did you feel about the end? How did you feel about the fact that Linda still by herself and that, or that Jill stood up for herself and or talking through some of the weird distinctions that Blume makes because for me it was like, yeah, racism is like totally bad, but fat shaming like , uh, like we're not gonna take any sort of stance one way or another because you know, Linda's gets like fat shamed but then, you know, technically like Jill was, there's no skinny shame, but you know what I mean? Like, like people are just, their bodies are just discussed and that's just how things are. I feel like it was kind of like teetering, whereas like it for sure said this racial slur is bad.

Ella: 31:39

Yeah. I think just going back to your point about like exploring morality at that age, there is a point where Jill is really surprised that Wendy lies to the principal. She's like, I can't believe that Wendy just sat there and like lied to his face. So that is something that's like on her mind.

Hawa: 31:55

It's like where does it end? What is, what is considered okay and what is that? That's something these kids are figuring out. And it's so, you know, I will say it is well-written. I just, I hate when people a re mean to each o ther. < l augh> . I'm that person.

Heather: 32:09

No, it's a hard read. I mean, this was brutal. I got to the end again thinking that it resolved and it doesn't. And like Linda being alone, it was like Jesus that was dark.

Hawa: 32:20

This is the last thing I read before I went to sleep. Like I finished the page and I put my phone, I was like, wow. < laugh > .

Darlene: 32:25

Aww

Ella: 32:27

It was weirdly emotional at the end. Like you just end the book and it's an exhale and you're like, that was sad. < laugh > .

Heather: 32:31

Yeah.

Ella: 32:32

That was, that was sad at the end.

Hannah: 32:36

I know that the, the narrative is from Jill's point of view and so we're not going to get like the full side, for lack of a better term of every other character. But I feel like we kind of get from some of the other characters, like we get a little bit of catharsis, we get a little bit of the point of view kind of wrapping up the story from the other characters. I don't feel like we get that from Linda. I feel like we could have gotten a little bit more about where she kind of is emotionally at the end of the book.

Ella: 33:08

I completely agree with you. At the end they kind of just describe her as being alone alone, whereas the other kids get like uh, they paired off and they're friends now and everyone has a best friend. But like Linda gets like no sort of like, and Linda was okay too. She was in the corner.

Hannah: 33:25

Yeah.

Darlene: 33:26

I was gonna say, I, I left off just wanting to pretend that she's gonna be friends with Kenny <laugh>.

Heather: 33:32

Yeah.

Darlene: 33:32

Like she's just gonna go visit Kenny

Heather: 33:35

< laugh > The bar mitzvah was their meet cute.

Darlene: 33:37

Yeah

Ella: 33:38

I wanted her to like do what the rest of us do when we don't have any friends, which is like pull out a book or like,

Heather: 33:43

I want a, like, whole book about Linda in which she's like having a weird seance to like < laugh > deal with her ESP and like I

Darlene: 33:54

All those that have wronged her

Heather: 33:54

She's a very interesting character in the, in the bits that we get about her.

Ella: 33:59

Why was she home on Halloween? It was the question that I came

Heather: 34:02

I thought she was home on Halloween because she didn't wanna be seen eating sweets.

Ella: 34:07

Mm.

Heather: 34:07

Because they had already been mean to her about her diet and stuff and that she was afraid of being pranked probably physically and violently.

Darlene: 34:17

Yeah. That one was pretty hard because I, I don't think I've ever, I don't think I grew up with that sort of mentality of like being really hyper focused on what I was eating. And I felt really bad for Linda because just at every turn. But I do remember certain aspects of my childhood that I was like, you know, now we know it's like wrong to think that way. But one is like body mass index not really being a true measure of whether you are overweight or not. But yeah, that, that scene on the scale was really, and she's just trying in

Heather: 34:48

Oh god, in front of the class.

Darlene: 34:49

Yeah.

Hawa: 34:49

That was so unnecessary.

Heather: 34:51

Ugh.

Darlene: 34:51

And she's just trying to like not even make excuses. She was just like, I'm big boned. And she was just like, yeah, but according to my book, you're overweight is what the nurse says and the kids just use it like as fuel for like more bullying.

Hawa: 35:05

It was kind of ridiculous that Jill was like waiting around to see what would come up on her like scale. Like that's just so, I mean I guess also it might have been kind of just so we could have that perspective because we are seeing things from Jill's point of view.

Hannah: 35:19

I mean first of all, why are they weighing kids in school? Second of all, why are they doing it in front of their classmates and having them all here with the nurses saying to them about their weights. Like the whole thing is just bananas.

Ella: 35:32

I absolutely, they absolutely did that when I was a child.

Darlene: 35:35

Yeah.

Ella: 35:35

And you would have people like tying their shoe or like lingering out, like in theory it was supposed to be one in and one out, but then like it was an open door and like no one's whispering. So like you would get like the group of pe- like perfect people like in the middle, but then if you were on either scale like underweight or overweight, like it was a humiliating experience.

Heather: 36:00

Yeah. I don't remember the weigh-ins but like I definitely remember other things that were like very publicly done that I am sure must have been difficult for at least some of my classmates. You know, I was thinking about the like presidential fitness testing and gym

Disembodied Voice: 36:17

Real winners wear one of these. What's that? The presidential physical fitness award.

Hawa: 36:23

Ugh.

Heather: 36:24

And like for the kid that couldn't run the mile and had to walk it or the person that had like no flexibility at all or the kid that couldn't do a pullup, that was probably very like publicly humiliating because it was in front of the whole class. But yeah, the part with like watching Linda's lunch change mm - hmm. like after the bullying starts, cuz her lunch was fine to begin with. It was a totally normal school lunch. And then they start being mean to her and the, the lunch she brings in for her diet lunch is not a lunch. It's like some saltines and an apple, which they then take her apple and wreck it and you know, that just becomes another source of cruelty. There's also weird stuff with like, Jill has like real food aversions. So like the flip I think to be she's upset cuz she's underweight and doesn't want to get scolded by the nurse for her weight and told to drink a malted, which is advice I'd love to get from a nurse. But Jill was not happy to, to get that < l augh> we're like, just get some milkshakes.

Darlene: 37:33

Well, she didn't know what it was. Right.

Heather: 37:35

She had never had one before. But it's like she's, I think meant to be in contrast to Linda. So Linda has whatever her struggle with food is that she's trying to deal with. And then Jill has her own struggles with food and that she has like very strong food aversions apparently that are textural I guess because she only eats peanut butter as what we're led to believe. She even brings a peanut butter sandwich to the bar mitzvah because she knows she won't eat whatever they're serving.

Hawa: 38:06

Yeah. < laugh > . And then she goes to the bathroom and eats it. That's so gross. < laugh >.

Heather: 38:10

She goes have her toilet sandwich

Hawa: 38:13

< laugh > .

Heather: 38:13

Yeah. And she does get teased a bit, I guess about her peanut butter.

Ella: 38:19

Well They call Rochelle has a peanut butter sandwich. Yeah.

Darlene: 38:22

And that's why I felt bad again, because I feel like Jill gets understanding at the end because she gets

Heather: 38:27

s gets, she validated and Linda's not.

Darlene: 38:29

Yeah, because Rochelle has a peanut butter sandwich too. But then Linda's like eating alone <laugh>. Yeah.

Heather: 38:35

I just don't know how successful it is because it does seem like a very different experience being picked on because you're overweight must be very different from being picked on because you're underweight and like I was a scrawny kid, like people made cracks about my weight it sometimes and, but it never damaged me. And I , you know, it was just kinda like, oh, whatever. It's like being called four eyes.

Disembodied Voice: 39:03

Arthur's a four eyes.

Heather: 39:04

So when you had your glasses on or something like that, it, it didn't wound. And I think obviously it is wounding Linda in a way that it's not really wounding Jill to be on the receiving end of those type of taunts. I guess

Ella: 39:17

There's something very adult lensed about. Linda does not end up bringing less food. She brings like diet, food,

Disembodied Voice: 39:28

The Diet Right Woman. She's someone special.

Ella: 39:30

It's different food. It is.

Heather: 39:32

It's not a meal.

Disembodied Voice: 39:33

I use Slim Fast for breakfast and lunch.

Ella: 39:35

It's not a meal and it's not a child's meal. It is an adult meal to diet.

Disembodied Voice: 39:40

Give us a week, we'll take off the weight.

Ella: 39:42

And I, I think that adds like a weird othering between the two discussions of their bodies is that like Jill just gets more food, but the food she has doesn't change mm-hmm. because she doesn't want to, you know, drink the milkshakes, but also like other stuff. But like Linda's meal, like actually changes and I think that's like, who wants to be the kid that brings like a bunch of crackers and like a celery stick to lunch?

Hawa: 40:07

Celery's disgusting by the way.

Ella: 40:08

It is. It is,

Hawa: 40:09

but I was wondering like, sorry, this,

Heather: 40:15

Wild take!

Ella: 40:17

Do you like celery

Darlene: 40:18

Let's talk about it.

Heather: 40:18

I do like celery

Disembodied singing voice: 40:22

Captain Vegetable...carrot

Hannah: 40:23

It's only good as a vehicle for peanut butter or like blue cheese dressing.

Darlene: 40:27

mm - hmm.

Hannah: 40:28

By itself. It's, there's no point.

Hawa: 40:30

Celery is one of those things where I'm like, hmm, maybe I was just wrong. And then I try and I'm like, nope, I was right.

Heather: 40:36

No, no. It's nice and crunchy. it's good in like stews

Ella: 40:39

But it's not always [unintelligible] you get like strings.

Heather: 40:43

[unintelligible] cucumber

Hawa: 40:44

I don't like cucumbers either!

Hannah: 40:46

But when it, when it's fibrous and like you keep chewing it and chewing and chewing it and it never gets to a point where you can swallow it, what do you do then?

Ella: 40:54

No,

Hawa: 40:55

But it, you know, it did make me wonder like, did she go home and say something to her mom and her mom gave me suggestions.

Heather: 41:01

Or she's sneaking it.

Hawa: 41:01

that she's just gonna, like, that's what she's gonna pack for herself. And you know, there was one point where I wondered if she had been saying anything to her mom because when they were in the bathroom at the bar mitzvah, sorry, had to go back a little bit and she's like, oh, are you the Jill Brenner that's in her class? And for a second I thought like she was gonna be like, oh, well you heard you makeup under my baby. But I feel like I figured it wasn't just because I feel like if it had been a situation where she had said something to her mom, I don't think any mom would experience their child going through that and not go to the school about it. Mm- h mm. and then the, the, the teacher would've said something to the class.

Heather: 41:34

Well, un until the bullying started, I would think Linda wanted to fit in with these kids. Right?

Ella: 41:41

Yeah.

Hawa: 41:41

Yeah.

Heather: 41:41

Like so she might have said like, oh well Jill's in my class this year. Yeah. But, you know, in a hopeful way mm-hmm. when her mom asked how the first day of school went.

Hawa: 41:50

Or you know, when you get the class list for whatever reason, if you have to give things out to the kid, I don't know. That's , that was a thing

Ella: 41:57

As someone who grew up like chubby, I have a hard time thinking about Linda going home and like sneaking diet food between the nurses' comments and like just how I feel.

Heather: 42:08

Do you think it was coming from the mom?

Ella: 42:09

Yeah. I do think it was like perfect. We are putting you on a diet. Especially the comment about like her mom being the one that said, you can eat whatever you want.

Heather: 42:20

Today.

Hawa: 42:21

Yeah.

Heather: 42:21

Today she did say that like she made the bar mitzvah like a cheat day.

Darlene: 42:25

Yeah.

Ella: 42:25

Yeah.

Hawa: 42:25

And that's so sad to think of kids trying to have cheat days.

Heather: 42:28

Yeah. Again, this book was written in the seventies, which I was wondering with Jill's mom's smoking.

Ella: 42:34

Mm - hmm.

Heather: 42:35

if that was gonna come up as a, a diet thing as well mm-hmm. because that was why a lot of women smoked then. Mm-hmm. But bringing the great-aunt in, Maudie.

Ella: 42:45

Mm-hmm.

Heather: 42:46

Who was like on the weird vegan kick < laugh > < laugh > . She w as like all vegan,

Hawa: 42:50

30 vitamins.

Heather: 42:51

supplements and like, we're gonna juice everything.

Hawa: 42:54

I wish grandma came, grandma can cook.

Heather: 42:57

Yeah. Like the, because I think that probably was very much a, like, it's a hippie dippy thing and like, ooh, it's, here comes new age Auntie Maudie. You know, it does give some context to where Linda would sit at that time, her diet being crackers in an apple. You know, you can kind of see why like, that's totally inappropriate. Like you said, it's not a meal,

Ella: 43:22

it's not a,

Heather: 43:22

it's, it's just a couple of snacks.

Ella: 43:24

It's not a meal and it's specifically not a meal for a child and there's like no nutrients in it. No. But then like you could see that like, oh, well if somebody like Maudie got ahold of her, you know, she'd have put her on some kind of juice cleans . And so you could see context I guess for a lot of the weird diet culture and food issues of the time. And that would be pretty heavy, I think. Like, because she really is, other than the one boy Bruce.

Darlene: 43:50

mm-hmm.

Heather: 43:51

They're the only ones presented as being heavy. I think it showed like how much more isolating that would've been at the time.

Hannah: 44:00

I thought it was interesting that they brought up the families ordering Chinese food for dinner and like Jill's saying, oh, I don't wanna eat Chinese food in the family's life. Everybody likes Chinese food. Jill give it a try. And it kind of made me wonder like when did, when did Chinese food kind of become like a, a thing you could pick up like pretty much everywhere in the United States? Clearly you could in the seventies, but I, I wish I had looked that up. So I think by the seventies it would've been pretty entrenched as like mm - hmm. This is a cool thing to pick up for dinner.

Ella: 44:29

They do, they do make a comment about it being Americanized.

Heather: 44:31

Yeah. Because Jill's like, it's not even real Chinese food just ask the Wus. Like, shut up. We're getting our sweet and sour chicken.

Darlene: 44:39

Kenny's like Tracy's American < laugh > .

Ella: 44:44

Well, I mean that was, that moment really stood out for me, but for a different reason. I think for me it really solidified that Jill is not just a picky eater like she is legitimately having like food aversion mm - hmm.

Heather: 44:55

Yeah.

: 44:56

Because at this point in, in that point in the book, she had had opportunity to eat like a little bit of every single type of food. Like.

Heather: 45:03

Yeah.

Ella: 45:03

You know, crunchy, sweet, sour, you know, mushy. And she just really is not about whatever's going on textures, tastes. Um,

Hawa: 45:13

She did mention that she, you know, in her letter to Mrs. What, what's the lady's name that, that that's

Darlene: 45:20

Oh, the French Mrs.

Heather: 45:22

Swiss housekeeper.

Hawa: 45:23

Yeah. Yes. So she writes in her letter to her that, you know, she wishes grandma was here because grandma can cook and grandma can make soup.

Darlene: 45:29

Yeah.

Hawa: 45:29

With chicken or something like that. So maybe that's another thing that she likes, but nobody ever cares to figure out to make for her something that we didn't talk about. And I don't know if you're actually, you had a direction you wanted to go in, so I'm gonna let you do that.

Darlene: 45:40

No, wait. And you can just say it < laugh > .

Hawa: 45:42

No, I just,

Ella: 45:43

Somebody lead us.

Hawa: 45:43

something that we jotted down that we didn't talk about yet, these Halloween costumes. Like why was Tracy dressed as big bird and why were, was everybody dressed up as a bum?

Ella: 45:53

Like that's,

Heather: 45:55

I will confess that my mom dressed me as a hobo < laugh > for like.

Hawa: 45:59

< l augh> .

Heather: 46:01

Multiple years running when I was a small child. There are like multiple pictures of me dressed as a hobo for Halloween. So it was a thing. I guess.

Hawa: 46:09

it was just amazing. Was This a thing Like,

Heather: 46:12

I mean, these people had money though. Like I think it was a thing for us because there wasn't money for a costume and you could burn a cork and smudge it on my face and give me a little stick with a bandana on it and now I'm a hobo.

Ella: 46:22

I feel like though, like there are generational things with that because I feel like for a long time everyone I knew was like an artist and they just wore their regular clothes and smeared paint like on their shirt and like, you know, washable paint on their shirt and face and then after Halloween you just washed the stuff. So I do think that like, it was a very potentially accessible costume.

Darlene: 46:43

Hmm.

Hawa: 46:44

I Sorry, Go ahead. I was just gonna say, I do have a generational witch costume that I was dressed in for many, many years until I physically outgrew it and it was an adult costume so it had to be pinned up a lot. I bet it wasn't better than Kenny's.

Ella: 46:59

It wasn't. Cause it only came with a hat and a very tattered robe thing. I did not think to add a cigar.

Darlene: 47:07

or goggles.

Ella: 47:08

Or goggles.

Darlene: 47:08

Yeah.

Hawa: 47:09

< laugh > . Yeah. And she was so salty that her brother won in that costume and she's like, I never won in that costume. But also, Jill, you kind of sucked so that's why you didn't win in your flenser or whatever costume. Like,

Ella: 47:22

It's like the kid that shows up in like an Abe Lincoln costume and you're like, what are you doing?

Heather: 47:26

Yeah.

Hawa: 47:27

She was mad at the fried egg. Won the most original and honestly, like, he's like, he wouldn't even intend to be an egg. It just.

Darlene: 47:35

happened, happened. < laugh > ,

Ella: 47:37

sometimes these things just happen.

Heather: 47:39

We did get the Harriet, the spy reference during the Halloween interlude, which .

Hannah: 47:44

Right. < laugh >.

Heather: 47:44

felt like we were coming full circle. That was our first book that we ever covered for the pod. And she referenced Harriet rolling around like an onion during their pageant.

Hannah: 47:53

Right.

Heather: 47:54

That was something in this book,

Hawa: 47:55

<laugh>. Right. And we're we're, we're discussing it on our last episode of the season.

Ella: 47:59

Yeah.

Hawa: 47:59

So it does feel kind of like,

Ella: 48:00

I did read that and go, oh, the podcast < laugh > < laugh > .

Hannah: 48:05

I mean, I feel a little bit like this book is a bit of an homage to Harriet, the spy, like with the, the bullying and the, the table's turning and even the housekeeper slash not nanny, but I don't know, it's not a, it's not a redo, but I just feel like there's like, it's actually Sort of a hat tip.

Ella: 48:25

That's a really good point though. There's a lot of similarities in like an extreme way.

Hannah: 48:32

Oh, and the food to the food choice. The one sandwich.

Ella: 48:35

Yeah. <laugh>. You can only as a child only have one type of sandwich that is your sandwich. I mean, I wouldn't say Harriet's a more likable character than Jill, but is she not a more interesting character? Like I don't feel like we learn a lot about Jill other than.

Hawa: 48:50

she, she feels like A follower,

Heather: 48:51

an enthusiastic bully.

Darlene: 48:54

Yeah.

Heather: 48:54

And she likes peanut butter only. There's really not much to her beyond that. She bites her nails , uh, for, for the story coming from her pov we know surprisingly little about her, I feel like.

Ella: 49:09

Oh. And she collects stamps.

Heather: 49:11

Oh, she does like stamps,

Ella: 49:12

which is like a, stamps . like a weird, like she does it with her best friend. She has that like, brief exchange over mail about stamps. But like, it doesn't feel like a personality thing. It just feels like a, a child should have a hobby.

Heather: 49:27

A thing we do.

Ella: 49:28

Yeah.

Heather: 49:29

Yeah.

Hawa: 49:30

In the beginning of the book I noticed that besides Jill, Tracy's the only one whose last name we get and I, I I felt like that, I don't know if that was like very intentional from the beginning almost to kinda like foreshadow that something was going to come up terms of her race.

Heather: 49:46

I don't think so though. Cause we get , uh, Linda's last name is Fisher. Right?

Hawa: 49:51

Okay. That's true. Yes.

Heather: 49:51

And then I feel like we get Bruce's last name too.

Hawa: 49:55

You know what? You might actually be right.

Darlene: 49:57

Yeah. Bonna Ventura

Ella: 49:57

The thing though, is that Tracy is one of the only ones that continuously gets the last name.

Hawa: 50:02

Yeah, yeah. Like I , I read it and I was like, okay, they clearly want me to know that she's Asian.

Heather: 50:07

Yes.

Hawa: 50:08

Yes.

Ella: 50:08

Yeah. That did feel part. Yeah. Cuz we do get other people's last names, but it's very fleeting.

Darlene: 50:13

Mm - hmm.

Ella: 50:14

or it's in context of like at the bar mitzvah, like being announced, but hers is just like the description of her name, first and last name.

Hawa: 50:21

Yeah.

Heather: 50:22

Yeah. We get Donna's last name,

Darlene: 50:24

Bruce.

Heather: 50:24

Which yeah, it may be a vehicle just to get to drive home. Like it's just set up for the, there's gonna be a slur that, but also the names the, okay, so the girl that they call a whale is Fisher.

Darlene: 50:42

Mm - hmm.

Heather: 50:42

Then Mr. Machinist. I still, I don't even, I don't know what that is.

Hawa: 50:48

Yeah.

Heather: 50:48

That's not a name is it?

Hawa: 50:49

And I thought it was gonna be one of those like, um, you know, what book did we read recently? Was it it, was i t a Ramona book? It was, um, one of the books where the, was the Babysitters club. Babysitters Club. Where like she, she makes up the name about the neighbor, but then the neighbor's name actually they find out the neighbor's real name at the end. I thought it was gonna be one of those. Oh, they call him Mr. Machinist. But then you find out his name's actually like Mr. Johnson or something towards the end.

Heather: 51:13

Yeah, no, it it, well, and I just kept,

Hawa: 51:15

but then t hey said his name was on his mailbox.

Heather: 51:16

Yeah, it was, that was really his name.

Hawa: 51:19

Yeah.

Heather: 51:19

Cause that was what the parents referred to him as as well.

Hawa: 51:21

Well, you know, that's actually his name cuz it's on the mailbox.

Ella: 51:23

That's another great example of things not being resolved though, because I thought it was gonna be like that very common trope of mean old man.

Heather: 51:31

turns out to be nice,

Ella: 51:33

turns out to have a heart of gold. And the last scene is him slamming the door and like getting

Heather: 51:37

[ indistinct] is an asshole!.

Darlene: 51:39

Yeah.

Ella: 51:40

Why? Why Did we take that journey together?

Darlene: 51:43

Oh w ow.

Hawa: 51:43

But also, like, they didn't finish raking, so

Heather: 51:46

Like, life isn't fair. A lot of people just suck < laugh > . Which is true. I guess I, I don't know the Machinist thing though. Every time I saw it I was just thinking that Christian Bale movie where he lost all the weight.

Ella: 51:58

Yeah.

Heather: 51:59

And it, so that's what I had in my head. Is this like skin and bones, like scary looking Christian Bale?

Ella: 52:06

Well they're like, he's like.

Heather: 52:07

this is just weird.

Ella: 52:08

He's old, he's not old. Does he have kids? Like, is he married? Like, what's going on in there? And there's just no answers?

Heather: 52:14

No, we just know everyone hates him and he has a large leaf filled yard

Hawa: 52:18

And he won't donate to unicef.

Heather: 52:20

So I guess they should,

Darlene: 52:21

That felt, I dunno if it felt dated, but.

Hawa: 52:23

the unicef boxes?

Darlene: 52:25

constant. Yeah, the constant like mention of UNICEF and like I

Hawa: 52:28

I do remember getting those boxes though, but I never went trick or treating so I was never going around with them.

Darlene: 52:34

But I think that also, I, I don't know if that speaks to sort of the ineptitude of the adults too. Cuz I feel like the dad, like at the end he's like, I think they learned something. I don't know, it was just kind of like, I feel like the parents gave advice, but it wasn't like true advice. Like it just kind,

Hawa: 52:51

It was very cliche advice. Like, oh, just laugh at yourself and they won't laugh at you.

Heather: 52:54

Which is true. I mean, as a parent and as an adult, I think we do that a lot. < laugh > we do a lot of like trite comments or like, here, let me give you this cliched bit of wisdom that doesn't I have < laugh > and as a kid Yeah, you, you think about, I mean, not to go like all Holden Caulfield, you like, they're all phonies. But like, you do think that when you're a kid you're like, adults are so fake. Like they just tell you all these things and they don't know like.

Darlene: 53:23

Yeah.

Heather: 53:24

They don't know what life is really like. And so I think that does come through. It's like all the adults are kind of of checked out and then they're sort of going through the motions and they're sort of trying, but like, they're just blissfully unaware of how like awful everything is with the kids. And

Ella: 53:41

It's a little mixed too because you know, they just keep telling her that, you know, some version of life is unfair. But then like also you can't take justice into your own hands.

Darlene: 53:53

< laugh >

Ella: 53:53

Yeah. Well if life is unfair, like stress be a vigilante. You know, <laugh>

Hawa: 53:57

Life's unfair, but we can make it a little less unfair if we give Linda a lawyer. < laugh > .

Ella: 54:04

< laugh > . What an interesting stance to take. Like that was the hill.

Heather: 54:08

Yeah,

Ella: 54:09

We went down, we

Heather: 54:10

Gotta have a fair trial. We

Ella: 54:11

Gotta have a fair trial.

Heather: 54:12

Uphold the constitution.

Darlene: 54:13

She's like, my dad's a lawyer. They're right.

Ella: 54:15

< laugh > . That's fine.

Heather: 54:16

Yeah.

Hawa: 54:17

<laugh>. So , um, one random thing that came to mind. Um, so I guess cuz like they don't have the cafeteria in their school. They have to like get milk delivered to them. And by the time, like it's lunchtime, the milk is spoiled. That is so gross. < laugh > like

Ella: 54:32

< laugh > . We had milk boys growing up because the fridge was in a different building next door. And so the milk boys had to go get the cartons and then bring the cartons to our school. Uh, so that does check out. And it was gross.

Hawa: 54:45

The other thing about this, the fact that it felt like teachers were never really around. So I mean, I don't know if this was something of the time where like, okay, the teachers would go out to lunch and then they'd just have a teacher kind of monitoring the halls to make sure all the classes are okay. But that just feels very chaotic.

Heather: 54:59

No, that was how we did it.

Hawa: 55:02

Well also this was a school with just fifth and sixth graders, so I don't know ver expected to

Heather: 55:04

mean at my school. It was like, lunch was really the only time teachers didn't really get planning periods, I don't think.

Hawa: 55:09

Mm-hmm.

Heather: 55:09

So they would be in the teacher's lounge and everyone was eating lunch and there were like a couple of lunchroom monitors. But yeah. And same with like recess. You'd have a couple of recess monitors, but things would go completely off the rails during those times. If a teacher needed to go to the office, like if they got called over the intercom or if they needed to take a kid to the office cuz they got sick or whatever happened, you'd just be left unattended during that time. And we did this terrible things like I, yeah, we were real bad when our teachers would go down the hall,

Ella: 55:42

They'd prop the door open and they're like, that's good enough. Yeah, that's, I'll be fine.

Hawa: 55:46

I feel like this being , um, everybody, all the class classrooms, being an individual classroom as opposed to being a lunchroom just makes it feel so much more chaotic. <laugh>

Ella: 55:55

The amount of physical bullying really surprised me

Heather: 55:59

Yeah, it's i ntense.

Darlene: 55:59

That was, yeah. Cuz I didn't think that rang true to my experience growing up. Like everything else. Like I think kids can be mean and cruel in how they speak to one another, but like the physical bullying was the one thing that I don't really remember too much of.

Ella: 56:16

I don't feel like I, and this sounds extremely gendered, I don't remember a lot of girl to girl bullying being physical.

Heather: 56:24

Yeah, agree.

Ella: 56:25

I just, it it was a lot of the very sharp words. Not like they like hold her down and drag her places, throw her in closets, like

Heather: 56:34

Yeah. Cram food in her mouth,

Ella: 56:35

Cram food in her mouth, hold her nose so she can't breathe. And she has,

Hawa: 56:38

Yeah, that was actually, yeah.

Darlene: 56:40

Yeah.

Ella: 56:40

It's like, it's intense.

Heather: 56:41

Very violent

Darlene: 56:41

Yeah. Like there was some scuffles. Yeah. But it, it just never got to that point. And like that so many people were in on it. At least they have to be pulling from somewhere unless they're just

Heather: 56:51

Like, I mean, a again, like Ella said, I don't remember it happening a lot with girls to girls, but I, I know there were like, there were definitely shoving instances on the playground where the kid that was on the outs with the other boys would get knocked down a lot more. There was that kind of stuff. But like, I don't remember it being an organized campaign like this is mm - hmm., this is just yikes. But I know it happens because you see how many like TikTok do you see where people have taken, like people fighting in the hall at school, at a middle school or like, it happens. I, but yeah, this was, it's just so relentless in this book. Like she is just assaulted over and over and over again and it's hard to read.

Ella: 57:36

Oh, the part where they make her say the sentence and then at some point she doesn't need to be bullied. She just says it.

Heather: 57:42

Yeah. It's it's awful.

Ella: 57:44

Yeah, they do just, they break her and then they just leave her alone at the end.

: 57:49

Yeah.

Ella: 57:49

And then they're done.

Darlene: 57:50

I was gonna say we could just end < laugh > end the discussion.

Speaker 2: 57:53

I think she's, how, I think that's

Speaker 4: 57:54

Goods. How the book and it's like, it, it's just like, yeah and then they just leave her alone at the end.

Speaker 2: 57:59

I'm like , yeah, you get to the end and you're like, wait, where's the rest? Yeah. <laugh> and it's like, oh no, this is, that's what a machine baling note and an excerpt from. Are you there ? Got me Margaret. Nothing else happened.

Speaker 4: 58:10

< laugh > . Yeah. And there are other books that she made series for but this was not one of them. Yeah, I don't think so.

Speaker 1: 58:16

Each episode we are heading into the library and talking to you. Well not you, but people like you right here on the stacks today we want to know what is the most unique Halloween costume you've ever seen.

Speaker 2: 58:27

And in tribute to Jill's mom who simply cannot quit smoking, we are going to find out what kind of cigarettes we are. Actually it says what cigarettes should you smoke your first time. But it is a personality quiz.

Speaker 4: 58:40

<laugh>, we're just trying to see if the system actually pays attention to our podcast.

Speaker 2: 58:44

< laugh > Pushing boundaries. < laugh > ,

Speaker 3: 58:47

What are they gonna do? We're

Speaker 2: 58:49

It's E for edgy

Speaker 3: 58:51

< laugh > .

Speaker 2: 58:52

And it says, how do you feel when you smell smoke from cigarettes in public? Choices are, I don't like it at all. I don't mind it. I find it very appealing. Ew, stay away from me.

Speaker 4: 59:04

Ew. Stay away from me. You

Speaker 3: 59:05

Stay away from me.

Speaker 1: 59:06

Oh, I'm be honest. It's, it'll stay away from me and I try not to be a judgmental person, but like you do your thing, just don't do it near me.

Speaker 3: 59:12

We're answering as Jill, correct?

Speaker 4: 59:13

Yeah. I won't

Speaker 2: 59:14

Answer , answer as yourself. Oh ,

Speaker 4: 59:17

I'll give pointed looks.

Speaker 2: 59:19

I'll say I don't like it at all at this point. Yeah. I'm also, I don't like it at all. Do you like mint flavored sweets? Yes. I love them. They taste nice. No. Ew.

Speaker 1: 59:32

They taste nice. I mean like, you know I'll, I'll, I'll try a peppermint, eat some mint flavored gum, but like, it's not like my go-to when I'm craving a sweet and go to the store and grab that.

Speaker 3: 59:40

I love them. Mint ice cream is my favorite ice cream.

Hawa: 59:43

Oh my god. Ew.

: 59:44

No, you know what, sorry. Out here Hating

Speaker 2: 59:49

Celery.

Speaker 3: 59:50

Hating mint ice cream

Speaker 4: 59:52

And cucumbers.

Speaker 3: 59:53

Chocolate. Chocolate. Yeah. Mint chocolate chip. That's a thing you patties too. I do. They're my favorite candy

Speaker 1: 59:59

Lie. I used to love Hermitt

Speaker 3: 1:00:00

Patties

Speaker 1: 1:00:00

Now hate them

Speaker 3: 1:00:01

Also. Good. Yes.

Speaker 2: 1:00:02

All in on with Thin Mint .

Speaker 3: 1:00:03

Something about like the sharpness of

Speaker 2: 1:00:06

The mint. Andy's mint also also delicious. Yeah .

Speaker 3: 1:00:10

Yeah . I mean I get made fun of.

Speaker 1: 1:00:11

Do you guys like junior mints?

Speaker 3: 1:00:12

Heck yeah. Yeah. Used to

Speaker 1: 1:00:14

Grow off the shelve

Speaker 3: 1:00:16

When I worked for the movies. < laugh >

Speaker 2: 1:00:18

They're hard, hard to get out of the bottom cuz you've had 'em on your lap and then Yeah, they're not a good movie

Speaker 3: 1:00:22

Camp, but then you open up the other end and you like get 'em from behind. But it's

Speaker 2: 1:00:25

A glob then.

Speaker 3: 1:00:26

It is. But I mean, I like that.

Speaker 2: 1:00:28

I just always feel like my hands are sticky from them .

Speaker 3: 1:00:31

That's

Speaker 2: 1:00:32

Fair. But I do still love them. So if it

Speaker 3: 1:00:33

Makes you feel better, my partners like to joke that I like toothpaste food. So <laugh> . Yeah . Yeah . Toothpaste food. Toothpaste food . But

Speaker 2: 1:00:42

That really puts,

Speaker 3: 1:00:43

Puts it , yeah. Considered like your toothpaste ice cream. Oh , I mean I Do you think about that next time you have mint?

Speaker 2: 1:00:52

I will, I will sip my mojito and

Speaker 3: 1:00:55

<laugh> . I'm like , ooh ,

Speaker 2: 1:00:55

I contemplate that.

Speaker 3: 1:00:57

Well

Speaker 5: 1:00:57

I like to drink toothpaste, herbal tea at night. So <laugh>.

: 1:01:01

I 'm w ith you Ella.

Speaker 5: 1:01:03

Um, I'm gonna pick. They taste nice .

Speaker 2: 1:01:04

Okay. The very important question, why do you want to smoke? This assumes that we all want to smoke <laugh>. So to look cool to relieve stress. Social smoking.

Speaker 3: 1:01:16

Social smoking. Yeah. To

Speaker 1: 1:01:18

Look cool. Aesthetics. Duh . Like I , I'd be holding the cigarette but I actually smoking like <laugh>.

Speaker 3: 1:01:22

What was that ya book ? You put it near your mouth but you don't give it the power to kill like a John Green . I remember

Speaker 1: 1:01:30

That . I dunno what

Speaker 4: 1:01:30

Happened . What was that The fault in our stars?

Speaker 3: 1:01:32

Yeah, the fault in our stars. He put the unli cigarette in his mouth. He was like, you give the whatever the line was. I know you don't give it the power to kill.

Speaker 4: 1:01:40

No . It reminds me of that community episode where Troy puts like a candy. Like, he's like smoking a candy cigarette.

Speaker 1: 1:01:47

I love community. Oh my god.

Speaker 3: 1:01:49

<laugh> .

Speaker 4: 1:01:50

Yeah , he catches Brita's smoking. He's like, I know what you're doing.

Speaker 3: 1:01:53

<laugh> <laugh> .

Speaker 5: 1:01:56

I'm, I'm going to pick to relieve

Speaker 4: 1:01:58

Stress. Does it actually relieve stress?

Speaker 2: 1:02:00

It it does if you're

Speaker 3: 1:02:01

A smoker. <laugh> .

Speaker 2: 1:02:03

Okay now we have uh , a sort of edgy looking girl smoking and it says, how do you want to be perceived while smoking? Rockstar punk with lots of exclamation points.

Speaker 4: 1:02:18

Rocksatar,

Speaker 3: 1:02:19

Satar.

: 1:02:22

Yeah, there are definitely some typographical errors in this quiz. Um, <laugh> . Yeah. Okay, so rocksatar, punk. Classy, feminine businesslike.

Speaker 1: 1:02:34

I'm gonna go with a rock satar punk. Just cuz I read that and my mind was thinking like raw xd <laugh> .

Speaker 2: 1:02:40

Yeah ,

Speaker 4: 1:02:42

That wasn't , I'm

Speaker 3: 1:02:43

Gonna agree <laugh> , but I don't really like the other choices. So. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:02:48

<laugh> agree. I mean, what does feminine mean for smoking ? Like Virginia Slims? Yeah. Or like you have a cigarette holder. <laugh>

Speaker 3: 1:02:55

The cigarette holder. Yeah, like you're, you're wearing a Billowy dress and you've got the cigarette

Speaker 2: 1:03:00

Holder just out here. Miss Scarlet it up. Yeah, I'll go Rocksatar pumpkin as well . <laugh>

Speaker 4: 1:03:06

< laugh > ? Uh, I'll just go classy. I don't think it is classy though, but I guess

Speaker 2: 1:03:13

A cigarette. Yeah, it shouldn't say classy. It should just say French <laugh>.

Speaker 4: 1:03:18

Yeah,

Speaker 2: 1:03:18

Then I wouldn't,

Speaker 4: 1:03:19

What's that? Uh, Audrey Hepburn movie where she, she has the poster with it doesn't.

Speaker 2: 1:03:24

Oh, Breakfast at Tiffany's? Maybe. Yeah, that's how I wanna be Figure out holder than that too Classy Class

Speaker 4: 1:03:30

A <laugh> .

Speaker 2: 1:03:33

Okay , now we have images. It says which smoker looks the coolest.

Speaker 1: 1:03:38

Is that J-Lo?

Speaker 2: 1:03:39

That is J-Lo at the top.

Speaker 3: 1:03:42

That's

Speaker 2: 1:03:43

Who is next to her. Is that Winona Ryder or maybe, I don't know who that is. Mm - hmm.

Speaker 3: 1:03:49

Is that Kylie

Speaker 2: 1:03:49

Ki Ki Knightley? I don't even

Speaker 4: 1:03:51

Know. Wait, the bottom. Yeah I think that's Taylor Momson.

Speaker 2: 1:03:55

I think so too. If you know who we have J-Lo smoking in a button-down looking shirt.

Speaker 4: 1:04:02

Real business woman. Her

Speaker 2: 1:04:03

Hair's pulled back. Then we have a black and white image of a rather French looking woman < laugh > with sunglasses on smoking. And then we have, I believe Taylor Momsen sitting in a director's chair holding a cigarette while looking at her phone. <laugh>.

Speaker 1: 1:04:22

Well in terms of who looks the coolest, I mean this picture, the black and white picture is definitely I think the best looking picture. But if I had to pick, well, so I'm gonna go with that. But if I had to pick which one would probably represent me, it'd probably be the girl in the chair who's holding it but not actually smoking it.

Speaker 2: 1:04:38

<laugh>.

Speaker 1: 1:04:38

But I'm gonna go with the black and white picture cuz that one looks the coolest.

Speaker 2: 1:04:41

Yes, it does look

Speaker 4: 1:04:41

Cool . Yes . Agreed .

Speaker 2: 1:04:43

Mine is stuck loading. Did anyone get a result?

Speaker 4: 1:04:47

Yeah, I got menthol.

Speaker 3: 1:04:49

Same.

Speaker 1: 1:04:50

Is that the only answer? Cause

Speaker 2: 1:04:52

That's what I , no <laugh> , I I got

Speaker 3: 1:04:54

Lights but it says want the tobacco and don't like mint. Which is confusing because I wrote

Speaker 2: 1:04:58

That I love you like mint mince .

Speaker 3: 1:05:00

So I just don't think this quiz is accurate.

Speaker 1: 1:05:03

This one says like, like a cool icy blast of mint, menthols are the best for you all popular brands like Marlboro, B and H, L and M, camel , et cetera . Make them be sure to give them a try.

Speaker 2: 1:05:14

<laugh> kind of a lame quiz y'all, but the other ones were super long. It's okay. The one actually had good results. It had like clothes on there. I think it gave me me gal Waz as the answer. So like it had edgier cigarettes on there. But no , we're just getting some convenience storm menthols. Mm and Ella's getting some lights . <laugh>

Speaker 3: 1:05:34

With the one thing that I like removed

Speaker 2: 1:05:36

From them. I robbed you of the thing that you liked the most. <laugh> ? Yeah.

Hannah: 1:05:39

I'll share my menthols with you. My toothpaste. Uh , cigarettes < laugh > .

Speaker 3: 1:05:43

Thank you. Thank you.

Speaker 2: 1:05:45

Well that happened. Yeah. <laugh>.

Speaker 5: 1:05:50

Each episode we ask whether our book passes the Bechtel test. The Bechtel test asks whether a work features to female characters who talk to each other about something that doesn't involve men or boys. So does it pass

Speaker 2: 1:06:04

<laugh> ? Yes it does. Literally all they talk about is bullying. Bullying .

Hawa: 1:06:11

Well that's it for this episode and this season of These Books Made Me keep an eye out for some bonus content during the hiatus. Feel free to drop us a tweet. We're @pgcmls on Twitter and #TheseBooksMadeMe. You can also send us your questions at these booksmademe@pgcmls . info for historical deep dives and readalikes. Check out our blogs, which is linked in the episode notes.