If the foundation is a lie, is anything real? This episode we look at identity, trust, and family as we dive into Angela Johnson's award winning book, Heaven. Marley's world is turned upside down when she learns that nothing is what it seems and her (spoiler alert) uncle is really her dad and the people who raised her are really her aunt and uncle. All in all, it's a real doozy of a revelation for anyone, much less a child. In this episode we try to figure out what the heck is going on with Shuggy Maple and bemoan some pretty poor editing when it comes to Shuggy's mom's name. We are perplexed by Uncle Jack and wonder whether he has taken hobocore a little too far. We ponder why on earth a 14 year old girl is allowed to go daytripping with a 20 year old man and try to figure out a seemingly dodgy child support situation. We also really wish people still wrote love letters —the pen and paper kind, not the slide into my DMs kind.
These Books Made Me is a podcast about the literary heroines who shaped us and is a product of the Prince George's County Memorial Library System podcast network. Stay in touch with us via Twitter @PGCMLS with #TheseBooksMadeMe or by email at TheseBooksMadeMe@pgcmls.info. For recommended readalikes and deep dives into topics related to each episode, visit our blog at https://pgcmls.medium.com/.
We mentioned a lot of topics in this episode. Here’s a brief list of some informative articles and videos about some of them if you want to do your own further research:
Kinship adoptions: https://adoptioncouncil.org/publications/the-hidden-hurdles-and-benefits-of-kinship-care-and-adoption/
Angela Johnson interview: https://www.ohiochannel.org/video/an-interview-with-ohio-author-angela-johnson
If the foundation is a lie, is anything real? This episode we look at identity, trust, and family as we dive into Angela Johnson's award winning book, Heaven. Marley's world is turned upside down when she learns that nothing is what it seems and her (spoiler alert) uncle is really her dad and the people who raised her are really her aunt and uncle. All in all, it's a real doozy of a revelation for anyone, much less a child. In this episode we try to figure out what the heck is going on with Shuggy Maple and bemoan some pretty poor editing when it comes to Shuggy's mom's name. We are perplexed by Uncle Jack and wonder whether he has taken hobocore a little too far. We ponder why on earth a 14 year old girl is allowed to go daytripping with a 20 year old man and try to figure out a seemingly dodgy child support situation. We also really wish people still wrote love letters —the pen and paper kind, not the slide into my DMs kind.
These Books Made Me is a podcast about the literary heroines who shaped us and is a product of the Prince George's County Memorial Library System podcast network. Stay in touch with us via Twitter @PGCMLS with #TheseBooksMadeMe or by email at TheseBooksMadeMe@pgcmls.info. For recommended readalikes and deep dives into topics related to each episode, visit our blog at https://pgcmls.medium.com/.
We mentioned a lot of topics in this episode. Here’s a brief list of some informative articles and videos about some of them if you want to do your own further research:
Kinship adoptions: https://adoptioncouncil.org/publications/the-hidden-hurdles-and-benefits-of-kinship-care-and-adoption/
Angela Johnson interview: https://www.ohiochannel.org/video/an-interview-with-ohio-author-angela-johnson
Hi, I'm
Speaker 2:Haa. I'm Heather.
Speaker 3:And I'm Darlene.
Speaker 1:And this is our podcast, these books made me. Today we're diving into Angela Johnson's Coretta Scott King, award-winning book, heaven Friendly Warning. As always, this podcast contains spoilers. If you don't yet know who Marley's real parents are, proceed with caution. Side note, this episode contains discussions of self harm, so we wanted to give you all a trigger warning. Okay. So Heaven by Angela Johnson. Was this y'all's first time reading this
Speaker 2:Book? No, it was not my first time reading this book. I love Angela Johnson so much. The first time I read her, I was in high school and I read Toning the Sweep and just thought she was marvelous and then wanted to read everything as she published things. So I, I thought I had read all of her books, but then I think you mentioned a book when we were talking before it started. That did not sound familiar to me. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. So maybe I've missed a couple in my later years, but, um, I started into her over of writing back in the nineties, and then I've kept up with her since. I just, I love her writing, so this was a reread for me and I really liked revisiting it.
Speaker 1:Yes, thank you. Because I definitely was supposed to ask, how did this reread compare to your memories of reading when you were younger? So keep that in mind as well,
Speaker 2:<laugh>.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, this was my first time reading it as a whole, it seems, because there was a point in time where I was reading this and some passages in it just seemed so familiar. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Um, and we had talked about this book a little bit before this, uh, the recording of this episode. And Heather gave some context that this book had been used, or passages from this book had been used in like, statewide exams, uh, for like, is it by elementary
Speaker 2:School? Like standardized tests?
Speaker 3:Okay. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Yeah. And so I feel like that's where I remember it from, but it was just a really strong de mood feeling when I read certain passages in this book. But I really enjoyed it, so I'm really excited to get into the discussion for it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this was also my first time reading this book, but like, I remember hearing about it, like I remember hearing about it. I remember seeing it. It just wasn't one that I picked up. So I'm glad that I finally got a chance to pick it up. You know, I'm always super excited when we get to read books by black authors on the podcast. So yeah, I'm excited.
Speaker 2:<laugh> also throwing in my vote that we do read Toning The Sweep in a Future Season, because I love that book so much. And I think I, I just think her books very well fit into the sorts of books that we're trying to revisit.
Speaker 1:So I'm totally down to do that.<laugh>.
Speaker 2:Yay. All right. I did some research into Angela Johnson and have a little background on her. Angela Johnson was born in Tuskegee, Alabama in 1961, but she grew up in small town Windham, Ohio. She began writing as a child obsessively journaling and writing poetry that she described as punk poetry to go with my razor blade necklace. She studied special ed for a time at Kent State, but left school before completing her degree to focus on writing. And Kent. She began working as a nanny for children's author Cynthia Ryland, who was impressed by Angela's writing and sent it along to her own publisher. In 1989, her first picture book was published and she began to branch out into writing for young adults and older children. Her book, toning The Sweep, was released in 1993, winning Johnson, the first of her three, Coretta Scott King Awards. She's also won the Prince Award for Best Teen Literature and received a MacArthur Genius grant in 2003. She's also been the recipient of a Virginia Hamilton Award and the Harper Lee Award. Her books for young people have tackled issues ranging from racism to mental illness and teen pregnancy. Her writing is character driven and she has commented that she can always clearly see her characters. But developing plots for her books is her biggest challenge. She's focused on juvenile literature because kids and teens are so much more interesting than adults. Life is happening when you're a teenager. One minute you're a child, the next you're allowed to go out into the world by yourself. Her writing style is poetic and observational and delves into identity and the bonds of family. Johnson continues to live in Kent, Ohio and remains a prolific author with over 40 books to her credit.
Speaker 3:Okay, and now we're gonna get into a plot summary. So Marley had a pretty normal childhood, all things considered, and she's grown up with certain truths. She grew up in a small town called Heaven because her mom liked the name. Her dad drives the big pickup truck and takes the family on little trips on the weekends. And her brother Butchy loves to skateboard through the town often with no helmet. The only thing shrouded and a bit of mystery is her uncle Jack. All she knows is her family wires him money, and he writes her letters from his adventures across the us. But after a series of events, Marley has to come to terms with a truth that threatens to upend everything she's ever known. And she begins to question if she's even the same Marley because of it. Who is she if her mom and dad are not her parents? And her uncle Jack isn't who she's known him to be, and how can she trust those closest to her if they lied about something so fundamental to her identity.
Speaker 1:All right. So let's get into this discussion. So my first question for y'all, as always is how did this book hold up? Do you feel like there was anything, um, that dated the book, that made the book a little problematic that should have maybe been left out? All those things.
Speaker 2:I think it held up really well, actually. And her writing style is very timeless. You could, honestly, there's only a couple of things that actually route this book to any particular timeline. You have Uncle Jack mentioning that he is a Vietnam vet and we know generally how old he is in the book. And so you can kind of place it based on that. And there's one, one mention of a website at one point. Hmm.
Speaker 1:Yes, I remember he likes to get on webpages or something like that. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And those are really the only two things in here that I think actually tie this to any particular timeline at all. This could be today, it could be in the 18 hundreds. Like there's, there's not a whole lot there that really fixes it to a specific time. So I think that really helps when you look at whether it held up or not, because there's not much to date. It, there's certainly like no real pop culture references. And I, I think that the book in general kind of makes the case for if it's good writing, it's good writing, right. Like it will hold up. Well, I think we talked similarly about like roll of thunder, hear my cry? Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, where it's like the writing is just good. So like, honestly, the characters could be in any time the, the relationships could be in any time because they're just speaking truths about how people are with each other and what family means. So I thought it held up really well.
Speaker 3:This is probably like a sad aspect of the book, but even the racism in it. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> is not like dated. Like it's not to a specific point, cuz it was about burning churches and that happened for like decades. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> and that sort of racism like continues So today. So I think for the longest time I wasn't like situated in any sort of decade, which I think also helped with the read, I think cuz after a certain time I think I just gave up and just read it as a story. And like Heather said, the writing is gonna stand out no matter what
Speaker 1:One thing. So I know that the book, there's the, the addition of the book that I have has like some like, not fun facts, but like, they have like discussion questions and they also have activities and projects that they recommend. And one of the things that it mentions before they give an idea for an activity is it mentions that, um, heaven is set in the summer of 1996 when a large number of black churches in the south were burned down. So that was something that I wasn't super familiar with, like the summer of 1996, specifically being a time period for that. But I, I figured it was around maybe the nineties or early two thou. But then again, also when you think about when the book came out. But, um, I was figured because there was something where like, you know, her Uncle Jack writes her letters and when we find out more about who her mom, her actual mom was, they wrote, they wrote each other love letters and she, Marley says something or thinks something about how like, you know, nobody would write love letters now they would just send each other emails. And I think that's so funny because now it's like nobody would send each other emails.
Speaker 4:They would just send each other text messages or like they'd slide in the dms or something like that.
Speaker 3:<laugh>.
Speaker 1:So that came to mind. Um, but that's not something that I feel like super dated it to be honest. But I, it was just something funny that I, that stood out to me.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And that is a truism, right? That people don't write love letters anymore. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> people should write love letters, but there is, I mean, that is a dying thing. Yeah. People don't take pen to paper very often. And that's been true now for decades I guess. Yeah. But I think there is still a truth to that now because I think that's one of those things when you go to a museum where you're like looking at like a history book and you see all of these handwritten things, they hit different when those are not commonplace things to you, which they aren't. Yeah. You know?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Like, um, when I went to the National Book Festival that, uh, the Library of Congress table had, uh, Rosa Park this handwritten, uh, pancake recipe and she puts peanut butter in it apparently. So<laugh>, so like they had copies to give out. So like I have a copy at home and I'm like, if it was typed out, I probably wouldn't have thought anything of it, but it was like a photocopied, handwritten version of her pancake recipe. I'm gonna give this a try maybe one day.
Speaker 2:That's so funny. I actually, the other day I sent Hannah, uh, my great-grandmother's milk rice recipe and when I got it out Yeah. It's handwritten and it, it just Yeah. It hits you different like that it makes it so much more personal in some way. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And like you get a sense of like who they were, but even by like how you write, I know that there's like no way to really tell someone's personality through their writing<laugh>. Um, but yeah, I get, yeah, it personalizes it. You get a sense of who they were. And I feel like that's a really important thing here in this book mm-hmm.<affirmative> because she doesn't really know her real parents. Right. And so she, but she does have those like love letters and then all those letters she's gotten from Uncle Jack Yeah. This whole time. So I think that that is a way that she connects and like bonds to them a little more because otherwise they're just people she's like never seen before.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Yeah. There's something so like visceral about a letter. Yeah. I think in a way that is not true with a text or an email. And I, yeah, I, I commented on the people don't write love letters anymore in my notes too. Cause
Speaker 3:I was just like, ah, this so true problem.
Speaker 1:And like even Marley makes that connection like very early on. Like people don't really write letters just in, she says love letters, but you know, just in general. So I think the fact that letters aren't a thing that's commonly done, but in her relationship with her Uncle Jack, it's something that they do commonly. I think that also creates a special kind of bond. Um, like cuz I mean what, what a 14 year old is constantly writing letters to a relative that they've never met and they're having conversations about important things she's telling him about her friends that she has and things that they do during the day. And it just all feels so genuine. And
Speaker 2:Would she have done that on email? Like it's such a different medium than she does not know him. Yeah. But she does know him through the letters. Like he's so much more real to her because these are coming written by hand and the care that's put into that than if it was just an email correspondence or even if they were on the phone. I feel like there's still like a distance there. And it's interesting that that's how he's choosing to correspond with her. And you look back in his past and that's clearly how he and Christine were choosing to correspond with each other. And like, I
Speaker 1:Didn't even think about it like that. The
Speaker 2:Significance of that for him seems really huge. Like that that shows how much he loves her
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And it's almost like he's passing along a piece of her Christine to Marley. Like, this is what we did together and this is something we do together. Even though you don't know that this is why I'm doing that.
Speaker 2:Well, it's something you can keep. Right? Yeah. Like that accumulates. I mean like, yes, our inboxes accumulate<laugh>, but like, that's a very different thing. It lives in a cloud. It doesn't live in real life, but like physical letters, you have your drawer full of letters, you have your box, you know, the box that she gets of her mom's things and the letters are in there. They're physical things. Like they exist, they're real, they're, I, I don't know. I think that that's a really, um, that's a beautiful part of this book I really like that
Speaker 1:Are things that you can do to personalize letters as well. Like some people like to spray a little bit of their perfume on it. Like when this case, I think the letters and the pedals were together. So I mean, yeah, you can add an emoji on the text message, but it just doesn't hit the same.
Speaker 2:But that's the emojis that anyone can use.<laugh>, yeah.<laugh>. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I feel like this book is very much kind of like a before she knows and then after she knows, how do you all feel about how her parents told her the truth? Because it's almost like, what I was wondering is like if that church did not burn down and they didn't randomly reach out to get her, what was it her, was it her record or something like that? Which is that realistic that that's how they would, like, how would they know to reach out if it was burnt anyway? It
Speaker 2:Was very mocking that like they needed some sort of thing to create that plot twist. Yes. But yeah, I mean, what was their plan? Were they just gonna wait until Jack decided? Like, yeah, now it's time to finally meet. Oh, I guess we better tell her that's her dad. Were they not going to say anything at all? Were they gonna just play it by ear? Wait until she was 18. There doesn't seem to be any plan and ugh, yeah. Just someone that used to work in child welfare, like this is not the way to do this. Like this is, and and deeply unsettling for her on so many levels. Like how, how do you get trust back with your child if their very identity was something you lied to them about? I think that's,
Speaker 1:And like they even changed her name. They
Speaker 2:Changed her name. Yeah. It, and I thought it was interesting showing Buty also being like, put his<laugh>, I hope, I hope I biologic find that birth certificate. But like, you also understand it because like that the ripple effects of this lie, it affects him as well because if they lied to her, they could have lied to him too. You know? And
Speaker 1:He's younger so it's like, he's like, well if she's older and they lied, they could have lied to her my every and that happened before me so that that my whole life could be a lie too.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And, and even if they didn't, he's lost something fundamental too. He thinks this was his blood sister and it turns out no, actually she's your cousin, she's not your sister at all. And I, I did think it was really, it was just really well drawn. She kept going back to the hands that mm-hmm.<affirmative> Marley would look at her mom's hands, thought to herself, her hands, I have my mom's hands and learning this. She realizes she has no blood tie to her mother at all. Like she is not in any way biologically connected to the woman who has raised her. And so losing that, like losing that, you know, tie to your parent, the tie to what you think your very blood is like that's, that has to be just incredibly shocking and jarring. And I think it's interesting that Johnson has Marley's story running in parallel to shies mm-hmm.<affirmative> Because in many ways it's the same thing, right? Shies had the burden of this like perfection and like facade of everything is perfect and we're the great suburban family and everything's nice and everyone's pretty and everything is well that her parents have sort of created and she's pushed against that because she knows it's not really true. But Marley's had the same thing. She's had this very idyllic childhood that she's believed was true and she finds out that was all a facade as well. And so her perfect childhood wasn't actually a perfect childhood. It was actually a very traumatic childhood, but no one bothered to tell her. So I think that that was an interesting way to run the two girls stories parallel to each other. Obviously they deal with it in very different ways. Shaggy turns it in on herself a lot more than Marley does. Marley is much more outward. She's angry. Like very angry. And she should be.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I think I kept trying to think back to like, I guess one would've been a good time to tell her, like when would she have been I guess like old enough to really comprehend mm-hmm.<affirmative> that these people that have been raising her are not her real parents and this guy that she's not guy but like her uncle, you know, who she's been corresponding with is her actual father. And like, it just feels like a lot. And so, I don't know cuz I kept, I kept thinking back to how she was 14. I do think that by that point she could have started to understand maybe a little bit before then mm-hmm.<affirmative> it didn't make me feel a little bad for, you know, the people who raised her like her parents because it, it is tough to like figure out when that right time is, when they are emotionally ready to hear that kind of thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I think it was interesting how like when they had the box of letters and like little keepsakes, they, they kind of just slid it in her room when she was asleep. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> almost like, and you know, I think at that point when they slid it in her room, Marley had already kind of been like tiptoeing or not tiptoeing around them, but just kind of feeling like, you know, her angst towards them. So maybe they just were trying to avoid that angst. Then I think this book does a really good job at capturing the, the awkwardness of the conversation, I guess in a way. Like they were just kind of like, here's this letter. They let her read it out loud and let her kind of come to her own conclusion with what that meant. So I, I thought that was really interesting cuz it does a really good job at like showing like, hey, this is not a perfect conversation to have. One thing that I thought that was interesting about the book just in general, it didn't do the typical or what I would've expected of the book. Um, you know, full circle at the end where it's like, yeah, we may not be blood but we're still your parents cuz we raised you. It didn't really necessarily do that in the direct way that I thought it
Speaker 3:Would. Yeah. And it kind of just came to the conclusion that yeah, these are the people that have raised me. Like it's not gonna take away the fact that a part of them has already kind of like come onto me just by being with them all these years. Like that's, that can't change just because the truth, like the real truth of it is that I'm not, you know, related by blood to them. They still showered me with their love and I will always be marked by that. So.
Speaker 1:Well said. I think something else that I thought was interesting just that they live in a town called Heaven Ohio. Mm. You know, the whole thing is that, um, they've lived there since she was two years old because her mom found a postcard that was marked Heaven, Ohio on a parking bench and she said that's where she wanted her family to live. So do you feel like for this book to be called heaven, do you feel like there was enough incorporated into this book to kind of give that like, vibe, like what elements of heaven do you feel like we're incorporated into this book in this town? And also I was curious as to if Heaven Ohio is a real town and I don't think it is just
Speaker 2:No, I think this is definitely meant to be based on the town that Angela Johnson grew up in. Yes. She grew up in a town that was like 2000 people and it seems similar in mm-hmm.<affirmative> size and like the sorts of relationships you have in a town of that
Speaker 1:Size. Especially cuz she was born in Alabama and like Marley's character ended up in
Speaker 2:Ohio and grew up primarily in Ohio. And it is interesting that she chose the name. I mean like, I think that that imagery is maybe a little heavy handed at time where it's like, okay, the town is named heaven and look, it's like, it's very idyllic. The neighbors know each other and like, you meet your best friend there and it's safe. And and
Speaker 1:The postcards that they send out have people coming out of clouds.<laugh>.
Speaker 3:Yeah,<laugh>.
Speaker 2:And like the, the lady that runs the like general store basically, she knows everybody and she's opened around the clock and her son brings tomatoes to people except for
Speaker 3:When she stops to pray. Oh yeah. Maybe
Speaker 2:Pray because real
Speaker 3:Skeptical<laugh>.
Speaker 2:Um, but yeah, so that's a little bit heavy handed, but I think that if we play that imagery out, it does get to an interesting place because that's all a lie. Yeah. Right. So like, I I, the message is heaven is a lie like
Speaker 3:<laugh>,
Speaker 2:You know, the, I I mean I do think that part of the take home is everybody's got stuff, right? Everyone has baggage. So even this girl that didn't know that she had baggage, she has it too. Like no one's perfect, that is a facade. The town's not perfect. She's not perfect. The family's not perfect. Shaggy's perfect mom is not perfect, but that's not what really makes something heaven. Right. So like at the end of the day, I think she's trying to redirect us from Yeah. It's not the superficial things about it. It's not that the town is named heaven, that has nothing to do with why the town is a good place to live. It's about the people, it's about the relationships, it's about the substance. And I don't know, I, I don't know how successful that is in landing. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> as a metaphor for kids or not. I thought it was a fairly sophisticated, you know, with heaven being like, this seems very unsophisticated writing, like I'm gonna name the town heaven. But I think the message about it and what she's trying to do with that metaphor is a little bit more sophisticated than it seems, at least in the initial parts of the book.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I was trying to figure out if I, uh, if it was strong enough to have that scene where she said that she had a dream and everyone in her life had wings, but then sugary and it's Bobby, right? Mm-hmm.<affirmative> that both of them have wings but can't fly.
Speaker 2:They were casting them on,
Speaker 3:I think. Yeah. They were basting them on. And then you have Marley who just has no wings. And I, I just wonder like, does it come across as like each of them are on their journey to being, or maybe pretending to be like they belong in this part is like heavenly town. Yeah. I don't know.<laugh>, it's like trying to figure that out if I, if I feel like it was strong enough that like kids would understand what, see
Speaker 2:And I think that's where I'm getting stuck to. Yeah. I don't know if it would land for a child. And again, I did not read this one when I was Yeah. A child. And I feel like this book is, you know, a book that you read when you're 11 or 12 and you really, it would resonate, but I didn't read it at that time. So I only have adult eyes to look at the text with. I, I do also wonder if there's something in there about forgiveness. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Mm-hmm<affirmative>. Like what really makes heaven heaven in the end it's about forgiveness and acceptance. You know, it's her being okay with her parents and Okay with Jack for not being truthful with her and still having love at the end. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> for them as flawed people as they are. I don't know if we quite get there or not. Yeah. For a kid reader, but,
Speaker 1:Right. Exactly. And there's another part in the book where Marley, I keep wanting to call her heaven, Marley and sh are sitting on top of the water tower and they're like, Marley is, you know, upset about finding out what she found out about her parents. And she's like, like, come on, just get up here and yell with me. And Marley's like, can you just yell for me? It's almost something about them sitting on top of a water tower up so high makes me wonder if that was supposed to be some kind of like imagery as well. Like, cuz they, she, they stand up on, I think there's one point where they're standing up and it's just like, they're kind of like in the clouds and it's almost like, is this as close to heaven as like you're gonna get right now? And they're just yelling and they're, they're, I forgot what the exact line was, but it's something about like, you're yelling, you're up so high, you're yelling and it's almost like somebody could maybe hear you, but it's like, who are you yelling for or who do you want to hear you? And I just thought that was really interesting. I'm curious about, and I don't know, and it doesn't touch on it much, I'm curious about how Bobby and Marley met, because it does mention that he's a few years older than her and they seem like they were really close. Oh. But no, was it because he was
Speaker 2:Posted that for the baby? Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I guess, yeah, that does answer that question how they met. But it's still just interesting to me that they're like friends. I
Speaker 2:Guess the whole thing was interesting because he posted the ad and like, you know, I'm reading it and I'm thinking this dates it a little bit because you're not gonna let your, you know, 14 year old girl hang out with this like 20 ish year old man. Is
Speaker 1:That about what he
Speaker 2:Is? I think he's like early twenties at the most
Speaker 3:Probably. Yeah. Yeah. Because she says like, he's not that much older than me.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Like, so I, I did find that a little bit. I was kinda like, ugh, that's a little odd. Like I don't think many parents are gonna let their daughter like just spend like hours and hours with Yeah. A guy that's like that age. It seems to be just a stoner with like a baby.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And the father's just like, you're such a good friend when she like talks about what she does for Bobby, I'm like, well,
Speaker 2:I mean, but then she did sort of acknowledge it because the first, she said the first day when she went for the job, her mom made her take sugar with her. Yeah. In case it was like, but then it was like, well, but then after that you're still just like letting this 14 year old like
Speaker 1:Right around town out because he like picks them up and they go on trips. Like
Speaker 2:She's just hanging out with this like 20 year old dude all the time. Which is, I don't know, I mean I guess it's a real small town, but like yeah, that would raise eyebrows I think anywhere now like that just that don't look right. And it's a little weird
Speaker 1:Because I know that there is a book about his life beforehand. I figured he's not a bad person, but it, if I didn't know that, I would've wondered like, is this, is this story going somewhere? Is he like a bad
Speaker 2:First? Is he grooming right? Is he grooming?
Speaker 1:Like
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah. It was one of those characters where you're just like, this is a choice so I'm gonna follow it through because the author like wants us to Yeah. But I was also just very skeptical of the whole thing. But I'm like, yeah, I mean he's a sounding board for her. Like he's the one that's like Yeah, do everything in your own time. And obviously like the parallels of, you know, the fact that he is a single father and he chose to actually raise his daughter in opposition to someone like Uncle Jack who just couldn't mm-hmm.<affirmative> or like just felt like he couldn't, so yeah, I, I guess I understand the author's intentions, but I kept just being kind of weirded out by it. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Yeah, because yeah, I don't know, couldn't have been like intentional grooming, but it was still like strange, it
Speaker 2:Weird like, and also she's like helping him raise his baby.
Speaker 1:Like there was the one part where her brother's like, oh, I thought you were watching brother today. She's like, oh no, she had a doctor's appointment. So Bobby decided to take her cuz he didn't wanna put that on me. And I'm just like, but why would you be taking her to a doctor's appointment anyway? Like, but overall he really just, he seems like actually a really, really good guy. And like, he's just like a, he does big brother type figure I guess,
Speaker 2:But also like they've known each other for like six weeks. Has
Speaker 1:It really only been six weeks?
Speaker 2:It's in July. Right. Because they peg it to the Halloween in July thing. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> And then when she's talking about when she saw like the ad in stuff, it was bef like summer break basically. That's why she can babysit all the time is cuz she's on break from school. So it was like,
Speaker 1:I got real close, real quick. What's
Speaker 2:Going on? This is so weird.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think, I think it was interesting though was to have him as a device to kind of pair up against Uncle Jack because you know, he's not Yes. He's not present in the way that a parent, you know, would be, but he did make sure that his child was being taken care of.
Speaker 2:Did he? I mean he made sure that someone was raising her, but like I was just like, what's going on with the money? Because when we find out that the money mm-hmm.<affirmative> came from the
Speaker 1:Car, said
Speaker 2:It was like a Ford Explorer rollover death or something. I was like, why was the car manufacturer on the hook for this woman's desk? Right. So then I was thinking like, this must be a reference to the like Ford Explorer rollovers in the nineties. Cuz that was when it was set. Oh wow. But then, so like, so he got a ton of money from the car manufacturer because of like a wrongful death suit, but then he's just taking the money. Yeah. Like they're just constantly wiring it to him. It doesn't ever say like that that money's going towards her schooling or her activities or anything like that. Yeah. It's just like, no, we keep it because you would've burned through it all and then we just wire it to you on
Speaker 1:One install
Speaker 2:So that you can be a hobo<laugh>. Which is,
Speaker 1:But you know, and at some point he does say that, you know, maybe I should start to settle down. He's
Speaker 2:Almost 50<laugh>. I was just like, wait,
Speaker 3:The family
Speaker 1:On the side of the road and they're eating ice cream and they look like they're having a really good time. And he's like, okay, maybe boy would like a yard. Like
Speaker 2:No, that's so odd. And then like you've got Bobby, who, you know, stone teen parent dude looks way more mature in<laugh> contrast to Dak who was like middle age and like just knocking about the country and his van with his dog. And like, I don't like what is going on with that whole situation, but if you like go based on his age,
Speaker 3:He would've been there. He was not. Yeah. He
Speaker 2:Would've been already a very established man mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:<affirmative>. Yeah.
Speaker 3:When
Speaker 2:She was born. So,
Speaker 1:So did he just drop everything after his
Speaker 2:Mom died? He gave up on being an adult after that. I,
Speaker 1:And then it's just like, you know, she didn't die at like, she didn't die giving birth. Right. So she, he had at least, I can't tell if it's a couple months or a couple like up like two years.
Speaker 2:Two a couple years.
Speaker 3:Years, yeah.
Speaker 2:With that they were Marley raising the child together and apparently quite happy they're writing love letters to each other. And did
Speaker 1:You have like no connection to that child or not enough of a connection to want to keep her, at least to feel like you had a part of her with you? And I mean, that's not a grief that I've experienced, so I can't speak on that. But it, there are questions about that for me. Like, it makes me wonder like,
Speaker 3:Well did, or maybe it might have been Marley like wondering Right. Because obviously she has all these questions, but no one's there to really answer. But she's also not trying to ask anyone. Yeah. But I do think there's like a point in time where maybe she is wondering if maybe she looks too much like her mom and maybe that she's gonna be a constant reminder. But like,
Speaker 2:I grow up, dude, like I, again, like his whole character, maybe I'm on Reddit too much, but this all felt like, am I the ex<laugh>? I had a child in my thirties, I'm a Vietnam vet, I was married to this woman, she died in a car accident and I just can't handle it anymore. So I'm ditching the baby with my brother and his wife mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And I'm just gonna drive around the country with a series of dogs.
Speaker 3:That's
Speaker 1:The whole thing with the dog being named boy. Like, and they, it, it's one of those questions that come up in the book as a discussion question. And I'm just like, is there supposed to be some kind of deep meaning behind this? Is it something like a, you know, he just can't let go of his past and he wants to hold onto that element of the past, but it's like you didn't wanna hold onto your, the element of your daughter. Like
Speaker 3:Yeah.<laugh>, I I was wondering if that was like a sort of extension of grief, like that you would
Speaker 2:Keep, he still can't get over the loss of those dogs, so he just keeps replacing them with other dogs. Yeah. I don't know. Some people are just like that. Like one of my friend's uncles when we were growing up always had dogs that were named do g like for dogs. So do og<laugh> and like every dog he had was named that. Some people are just weird.
Speaker 3:Okay.<laugh>.
Speaker 1:Okay. So one thing that we haven't talked about a lot about yet that I I think we should try to get a little bit more into if we have anything to say is about Shaggy's family. The Maples. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Um, because you know, they're portrayed as this like perfect family, like with the mom and the dad and the twin boys and the daughter and Shaggy's. Just the one that's not perfect, like the rest of them. And you know, Suggy has this clear like, you know, annoyance at her family for being so for whatever it is being so perfect or we don't get really full context. And it's funny because, you know, there's one point where Marley's like, you know, I really am trying to hate them because, or dis like dislike them because I know that Su does. But she's like, she's like, I don't know why I'm doing this. I, I, they, they seem like really nice. Like it's not even like they seem like they're forcing her to be something that she's not because they've accepted that she's different, but they're just like, I don't know. Like I'm still trying to figure them out. One thing that I thought was interesting also, there was one part where like her parent SU's parents are like dressed in matching like white tennis outfits. And I also thought that was, I don't know if that was supposed to be some kind of like imagery about them being in heaven in the perfect family, but Yeah.
Speaker 3:Mm. Yeah. I I I do remember when she said that I wonder, I, I guess she gets to be herself though because she's so antagonistic. Like I don't know that she can go back now. Like I, I do think that she finally carved her space and that family for them to just accept that she is who she is and she's gonna be who she is. But I, I feel like she's just kind of keeping the momentum. Like she can't go back to just being like okay with them. Like I, I think that it's just, and and also she pushes a lot of things down mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And so I don't think that she's ever really explored why it is that she is so upset with them trying to be so perfect. Cuz there is a line where she does that. Like that Marley doesn't let enough things go and that she feels too much and needs to learn how to do something about that. So yeah. I, I also just feel like she hasn't like fully explored how to kind of be at peace with the fact that her family is who they're gonna be. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> and she's gonna be who she's gonna be and it doesn't necessarily have to be like, there doesn't have to be that much friction there.
Speaker 2:I just felt like there had to be something more sinister going on. Yeah. Other than just the not fitting piece because really they were pretty supportive of her not fitting in the grants. I mean I guess they're kind of like ignoring it part of the time. Yeah. But it doesn't, you're not seeing a lot of friction there. You're not seeing her mom like saying, oh I'm so disappointed in you. You see her mom really glad that she found a friend. Yeah. You don't see her mom trying to get her to wear different clothes or behave in a different way. She's just, you know, it seems more like she's worried for her kid. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> and like is just glad that she seems more grounded now that she's hanging out with Marley. I don't know, I also, I had like strong JonBenet vibes with the like pageants. I was like, there must be something bad in this and then it never came up. Right.
Speaker 1:And it's just like, so are we just imagining that? I feel like it was barely alluded to but it's, for me, I feel like, you know, considering the, the targeted age for this book, it needed to, if that was where she was going with it, it probably needed to be a little bit more into the story cuz it kind of just reads as like, okay, this girl just doesn't like her family but like she's also like, we know that she's self-harming. So it's like,
Speaker 2:Yeah,
Speaker 1:There maybe is more to it. Like
Speaker 2:Well, so there's the whole background on the pageant thing, which when, when that came up I thought the direction it was going was gonna be that her parents had put this like overwhelming burden of perfection on her to look a certain way to be a certain way. And that when she couldn't do that there was some kind of backlash. But we actually don't see that at all. It's like she's trotted out to pageants and does well at them. As long as her mom's sitting in the right place where she can see her, then the one time that doesn't happen, she freaks out and has a tantrum. And I guess that's the end of it for the pageants. But we don't see like, oh, her parents tried to force her to keep doing pageants or that there was some sort of retaliation because she messed up the pageant. So all I kind of got to was that sugary felt like it wasn't really about her. That she was just one of the things that her parents were doing mm-hmm.<affirmative> to look a certain way. Like look at our beautiful daughter, look at our beautiful car, but they don't really know who she is and she's just really struggling with that idea of like, I'm not even a person. They don't even see me. I'm just a thing. I'm an accessory to this perfect suburban life that they have and I can't be that. But yeah, again, she's six when she starts hurting herself and that seems like a lot for a six year old to be internalizing and putting together. So I felt like there had to be some other catalyst for like, there must have been something more than just like, oh you can do pageant. Say, oh well you don't want to, it's fine. Like there must have been something else there. Or at least more weight to the like, we're disappointed in you because you can't do this anymore.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And there's, there's so much about sugary story and I think Bobby's story that leaves that we are left wondering about. And you know, there's a part where it's expressed in the book that I think Marley's mom says to her, you don't, you don't ask questions about people's past like you do, you don't care. And I think Marley says something about like the, the past being like a different person or version of who they were, where it doesn't matter in the present,
Speaker 2:First of all, they're in this little town in what sounds like pretty industrial Ohio. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. So maybe like there's, there's Amish nearby there, so they're like in this hybrid rural slash industry cuz her dad works at the like wood
Speaker 1:Yeah. With lumber. The lumber
Speaker 2:Mill mm-hmm<affirmative> essentially. But then Shay's family is depicted as this like country club set. The mom's always wearing a tennis dress and then the dad's like, well this half day off of work turned into a whole day. I guess let me get back in my Cadillac. It's like, what do they do there in this tiny town? Like this little town does not seem like it would have a social singing that would support mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:<affirmative>. Right. Especially considering they have this one store that kind of has everything. It just, they feel kind of cut and cake.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Like how are you a lady who lunches in a town that there's like no even like place to go have aosa with lunch. You know, it's weird. And like they only moved there like what, a year ago or something? Yeah. And there's no explanation why did they move there? Yeah. I feel like, I do feel like there's something very sinister, like maybe, maybe Shay's family's in the mob or like, I dunno.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I just feel like I kept trying to make it like I I was filling in the blanks. Yeah. That like Johnson didn't fill in for us. Cuz the same thing I kept, I was like waiting for more information about why Shay's always so angry, why she hates her family, that I would read into things. And I'm not saying that it wasn't obviously like Johnson included it for a reason, but I don't know that she really was inviting that much questioning toward it because there was a scene where, you know, they pull up in their brand new car and then Shay's like very upset like right off the bat. Yeah. And Marley's like, are you not excited? It's a new car. And she like goes up to it and kicks it and
Speaker 1:Then she, she said something like, they always do this or
Speaker 3:Something like that. Yeah. And so then I started thinking like, what do they always do? Do they always live outside their means? Like do they always go for the nicest looking car to seem the most perfect? Like what is her anger at? Exactly. But because she's not the kind of person that really speaks better feelings, we as readers are never gonna know.
Speaker 1:I think the one thing that we haven't talked about in like, in detail I think is, you know, when Uncle Jack finally does come to town, what that was like, I, I feel like, you know, for their letters to have been so this is my life and this is what I do on the daily. Like I feel like the part of him coming to town felt a little kind of like rushed over.
Speaker 2:Oh it was a little too neat too. Yeah. Because as angry as she is with her parents about the lie, she doesn't really seem to have that same anger towards
Speaker 1:That same energy.
Speaker 2:<laugh>. Yeah, exactly. Like why is Jack off the hook for abandoning you?
Speaker 1:None
Speaker 2:Of this would've happened. Exactly. And, and again, if we sort of piece out like how old he was at that time, the stability of the relationship he had with the mom and the general life stability that is implied for a man in his thirties having a child, what the heck? Like that just seems like a very, very pointed sort of abandonment. It's not even just like, man, my life was a mess and I wasn't gonna like put you in that. It's like, no, my life was great and then your mom died and it ruined it and I just couldn't anymore. So I got rid of you like you were nothing to me. And and she doesn't seem to be particularly angry at him.
Speaker 1:Right. And you could, and she could say that her parents lied to her, but you are in constant communication with Uncle Jack who signs his letters as Uncle Jack. Yep. So you could easily say that he's lying to you
Speaker 2:Too. Every letter was a lie. Yeah. Like, uh, yeah, I I think she's not holding him to the same standard that she's holding her family to and you know, that's, that's how feelings work, right. We're not like perfectly logical beings in how we apportion out, like blame and upset. Her parents are clearly closer to her. And so, you know, maybe her emotions are correspondingly a lot worse because those are the people that she cared about the most that she sees every day. But still there's like nothing.
Speaker 1:Maybe it's, you know, she's, because it seems like it's been a few weeks before Uncle Jack even kind of comes around, so maybe she's been carrying around this angst for a couple of weeks and when she finally gets to meet this Uncle Jack who she had been curious about before this huge bomb had been dropped on her, maybe just seeing him just, and you know, actually talking to him cuz I, it seems like she walks around town with him and shows him like the store and he's like, oh is this where the Western Union is? And stuff like that. So maybe just seeing and being there and talking to him and just being there with him and her family just made her realize that okay, it's not everything that I made it out to be, but it did feel a little too clean cut and perfect. Like I, I read a Good Reads review after I marked the book as complete and one of the reviews mentioned that, you know, like as somebody who went through a similar situation, it did feel like it was a little too like clean, you know mm-hmm.<affirmative>.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Tied up with a nice little bow. And the other thing was were we meant to think that he was there before he visited her and just kind of hanging out because there was the, there was the mention of a dog that seemed like he knew her. Yeah. And I was like, well that's boy, but then that's creepy. Like why is he like just hanging out in the town for while?
Speaker 1:Right. I was wondering that because I thought when I saw that and read that part, I thought that was gonna be the part where they're like, okay. And, and in the next scene he comes up to the house, they meet, but then it completely goes,
Speaker 2:No, there's a delay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's a delay. And I'm just like, okay.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I mean he finally got to a place where he was kind of ready to meet her. But even then, I don't know because it almost, I think the book also makes it seem like her dad was the one that reached out to him and was like, Hey, I think you need to actually come here and explain a few things to her. Like I think she needs this kind of thing.
Speaker 2:Well he says in the one letter something like, how would you feel about meeting me? Right.
Speaker 1:Or like, but how would you feel about meeting me if, if I made it a surprise? But I guess it's not really that much of a surprise or something like that.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then what, what are we to think happens after that? Because Jack has been saying in some of these letters like I feel like it might be time to settle down and boy could use a yard. And like, I feel bad because he wanted to stay here with these kids and we just keep moving and moving. Are we meant to believe that after this Jack is gonna settle down in this town and like start acting like a normal adult or is he just hitting the road again? And those were kind of BS promises.
Speaker 1:Also saying that you wanna settle down to your daughter who doesn't know that she's your daughter is very strange. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> because it's just like, okay, you technically already kind of had this like, and then it's just like, okay he's, he's gonna settle down in this town and make a new family. Like how is that gonna make Marley feel? Obviously these aren't things that aren't actually happening, but it's just kind of like, okay. You know, you know. But she's like, what is he doing here? He's not gonna take you is he? Uh, so I thought that was like real sweet cuz he's like, oh well you're still
Speaker 3:So protective. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I didn't know what to think about that either.
Speaker 1:I'm trying to figure out how I feel about him.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Saying like
Speaker 1:The letters seem sweet and genuine, but it's just like,
Speaker 3:Yeah. I think that as an adult you're just like, there's
Speaker 2:Man, come
Speaker 3:On. Yeah. Pretty much. But yeah, I also won cause I was also one of, I think someone who finished the book and was like, she wasn't angry enough at him, but then I guess it almost made sense because she doesn't really know him. So of like a lot in the second half of the book is her speaking for him mm-hmm.<affirmative> and you know, wondering things about him because obviously he's not there to answer any of her questions. And so she was like, oh, he must have been in so much grief after, you know, my biological mother died. And so maybe that was really hard for him. But again, I think she was able to do that because she didn't know him like that other than just correspondence through letters. Yeah. I, I don't know, I think I, I came away at the end with the sense that he doesn't stick around cuz I just don't think that that's something, it
Speaker 1:Doesn't seem like it's in his nature.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Like I don't think you can just patch that up. I don't think that you can just decide that you wanna settle down. I think he kind of made his choice and this is what it
Speaker 2:Is. I still, I'm just mad about the money y'all, because like, how much money could he have gotten in this settlement? Like
Speaker 1:14 years?
Speaker 3:14
Speaker 2:A couple million or something in a wrongful death. That money's going to him. He's just like, he's not giving it to her. Why is it not being kept in trust for Marley? Like she's the one that lost a parent and he's not using it to raise her. So why is he getting the money? It's just, uh, I
Speaker 3:Not
Speaker 2:A Jack fan. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And
Speaker 1:I think it's something that I think as adults we may probably wonder more about than the kids reading this. Mm. Um, but even still like it do, it does leave to wonder like it could be a situation where maybe, you know, he's letting some of the, the parents take some of the money, you know, to help with the costs of whatever<laugh>. I mean, I don't know how likely that is to be honest, but it, it is something that I wonder about, but I don't know if the kids reading this book would wonder
Speaker 3:About. Yeah. But it does just subsidize him having an easier life rather than Yeah. The
Speaker 2:Working.
Speaker 3:Yeah. The more obvious choice would've been like he keeps working and that money just stays in a trust or something until she turns of age and you know, maybe she can get like, you know, further her education or whatever. But yeah, it, it does come across as very selfish.
Speaker 2:Yeah. He's just freeloading off of money that should have been providing for both of them. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Yeah. At worse, but probably more just for her. Like honestly cause
Speaker 1:Like he has the means to be able to take care of himself or she's a child. I think, I think it's interesting because I think the, you know, in, in the view of Marley, it's like the parents, the mama and pop pops are painted out to be the bad guys for keeping the secret from her. But like in reality they, they, they're the ones that stepped up to take care of her. And granted, yes, they could have maybe communicated better and you know, eventually at some point like made a better decision of when to tell her. But Uncle Jack's just the one that was like, okay, deuces. And he gets the kind of like slide in and Yeah.
Speaker 2:He just ned out of the situation cuz it got hard. I I also wonder are we supposed to think he's mentally ill though? Because there is the thing about how he has to use the codes at Western Union mm-hmm.<affirmative> because he's paranoid about showing his id. So are we meant to believe that the paranoia indicates something else? There's,
Speaker 1:And they mention that he was a vet,
Speaker 2:He's a Vietnam vet. There's also the part where Shay talks about the shadow ghost mm-hmm.<affirmative> and then at some point, I don't remember who says it, but maybe Marley calls Uncle Jack a shadow ghost. And so I was like wondering, are we supposed to feel like there's some element there where like he really broke after the death of the woman and like this is part of it that like he's really not stable enough to live anywhere. Yeah. And so they're subsidizing him, you know, much in the same way that like disability payments would go to him. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. But nothing about his letters or no one says that. Right. Yeah. Like it's a very mild implication if it's there at all. And I'm not sure if we're supposed to pick that up as like, you know, he's just, he's just broken and like he can't do these things rather than he's choosing not to do these things because that's different. Right. Like if he had some kind of psychotic break after his wife died and then like took off, it's a lot more understandable that like, this is how things have played out than if he just was like, no, you remind me too much of your mom. Bye.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And a lot, you know, I feel like a lot about this whole ex, you know, situation isn't really explained to Marley. Like even when, you know, she finds out that it was like a wrongful car settlement or, I mean, wrongful, wrongful death in the car. That's how he's getting money and they're sending him money. Like doesn't she find that out from Butchy? Because, but she asked or something like that.
Speaker 2:Like why? Because Butchy asked the question because you're right. They were totally passive in revealing this information to her that it was the church letters. Then they just give her the box. There's not ever like hard conversations. No one in this family wants to have the hard conversation when she's super upset and she's raging at everybody. They just walk on eggshells. No one wants to talk and that's not healthy either. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3:<affirmative>. Yeah. But, and then I think that that's where it's helpful that she has people like Shay and Bobby that she can talk to and kind of work these things out with. But yeah, they're not the, there's a limit to how much they can help, but
Speaker 2:They're basically children too. I
Speaker 3:Know. I mean, SHA
Speaker 2:Literally a child and Bobby is basically
Speaker 3:A child just barely, yeah. Just barely an adult. Yeah. I guess now that I think about it, there are more like parallels between Shay's parents and them kind of ignoring her or ignoring the situation around her. Same as Marley's, you know, parents as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I did wanna real quick talk about some of the like language in the book. Like there's some really beautiful phrasing in here and I think it's part of why I like Angela Johnson's writing so much that she can convey in like a one line offhanded thing a whole lot about people. There's the part about, uh, Jack saying he decided on Kansas because of a dream I had. I dreamed so much now. Like gives you more on Jack than a lot of the context anyone else puts on him. The, the bit where it said people look for what they think they need, I guess. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Um, and then she said about Suggy, she wasn't like anybody in her family and like everybody in mine, uh, I thought was a really interesting, she's the black sheep there, but she fits, she
Speaker 1:Fits in perfect perfectly here
Speaker 2:With their family of, you know, kind of
Speaker 3:Black conspiracy theory. Yeah. The conspiracy theories that she like released to um, Marley's dad<laugh>. Yeah. That was funny.
Speaker 2:And then there was the part where, where Marley, after she's found out, she said, I feel bruised and motherless. Mm. Which I just thought was a really beautiful descriptive line. Yeah. And like how unor she must have felt to find this out because I think again, before we started talking on the mics, we were talking about, you know, does the big lie make everything a lie? You know, does the one big lie negate everything else? And I can definitely see how it does. Like the people you trusted have been lying to your face every day of your life, the whole time you've known them. It would make you second guess everything. Yeah. And like coming to trust those people again, you would feel like it's not just I, I'm motherless because my actual mother's deceased, but the mother
Speaker 1:That I thought I knew
Speaker 2:That I thought I had is not my mother and maybe she shouldn't be my mother because she didn't love me enough to, to be honest.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's, it's, it's honestly like when you really sit back and think about the story in itself, it's kind of, it's a sad story. Like cuz you know, it's like you thought she knew who you were and now it's like, do I know who I am? Do I know what I come from? And then it's like she has no connection, well not no connection, but she'll probably feel like she has no connection to this woman who raised or who she thought was her mother for at least a little bit.
Speaker 2:Although just some funny things in here. So like Bobby taking them out to like the Amish folks and all of this and like, again, this is just so odd to me that these parents are like, yeah, whatever. Go drive around with this like teen father, boy<laugh>. But like she referred to it as Zen driving at one point. I was like, Bobby's just really high<laugh>
Speaker 4:What is happening here?
Speaker 1:I did not make those connections with reading Liz, but that absolutely makes sense.<laugh>
Speaker 2:And then, and then Marley's like not a very good babysitter either. Yeah. When she takes feather to the park, feather like dumps sandal on her head. Marley forgets about her completely while she's reading a book. Another point she eats the newspaper and it's like this child has eaten like this huge amount of newspaper which could like obviously choke a toddler. And
Speaker 1:Then she's like, yeah, no, it's just in her, in her mouth. One thing that I thought was hilarious was when she's like at the park she's reading and she's like, oh man, I guess I shouldn't really read when I'm watching her anymore cuz she could get up and rob a store. Like what? That's your concern that this like child is going to rob a store while you're
Speaker 2:Reading and she's totally missed. The woman that was there that she looked at has like gotten up and left completely and she like, she doesn't put together like obviously someone could have walked off with Feather and you would've had no clue.
Speaker 1:Right? Like her con her her concern is what Feather would walk off and do. Like no, what is somebody gonna walk off and do with Feather? Yeah.
Speaker 3:<laugh>. No. Yeah. There was so many moments like that that I thought that was gonna be a plot point. Like something's gonna, yeah something's gonna happen and then Bobby's gonna get really mad at her because that's his world. What is it? She just like zones out really easily and I was like, yeah, something's gonna happen too.<laugh>. But I guess, yeah this is a small town so maybe that's not where your mind was supposed to go. Each episode we are heading into the library and talking to you, well not you but people like you right here in the stacks today. We want to know who you would be most excited to receive a letter from
Speaker 5:Bob Miley because I think he has a similar mindset.
Speaker 6:I would like to receive a letter from Shakespeare because I don't really don't know. I just like Shakespeare.
Speaker 7:Um, I would say Maya Angelou cause she was just such a prolific person. I mean it would be awesome to get like a poem
Speaker 8:From her. I really love to receive a letter from my grandmother, uh, Eliza Perkins Wilson. Uh, she was an English teacher and uh, a great-grandmother. Um, so I would just really like to see a letter for her for tips on being a great mother and a great person.
Speaker 9:Yeah, I'm waiting on a letter um, for my sister right now. So that's probably who I would most like a letter from him. Just yeah, we send each other postcards and notes and stuff. We love to find like local arc note cards and things like that that we can send.
Speaker 10:Uh, it's not a very well known um, Tokyo Babylon by clamp. So one of the main characters ended up being an antagonist that like murdered one of the characters. I would like to know what is going on with him cuz that traumatized me on a level you do not understand. So say she son, I need a letter
Speaker 11:Alligator
Speaker 12:From Michael Jackson. Cause I wanna go to, you know that little castle thing that he had for like kids. I really wanted to go there. It was like Wonderland. It was called Wonderland. I really wanna go there. Neverland. Yeah. Okay, my bad. Yeah, I really, really wanna go there. It seems fun.
Speaker 13:Uh, I would like to receive a letter from Mojang about their books of Minecraft.
Speaker 14:I would like to receive a letter from Moj as well because I really wanna know how they made the game and what like I wanna see the code of the game.
Speaker 15:I like to receive a letter from the book writer from um, babysitter Club cause it's a really nice book.
Speaker 11:What's the, is the guy named from nsync? Lance Bass? Yeah. Okay. All right. Why I would wanna receive a letter back from Lance Bass because when I was younger I was a huge fan of NSYNC and I wrote him a letter saying like how much I had a crush on him. So I'm like he could have wrote back.
Speaker 1:All right, so y'all, today we are going to do a Buzzfeed quiz called what City Should You actually Live in? You know, know the book being called heaven and you know Marley's mom finding that postcard got directing them to live in heaven is what inspired this. So yeah, let's get into it. Ready? Let's begin. How do you take your coffee? I don't drink coffee.
Speaker 2:Okay. I'm torn between cappuccino, extra foam, which I love a good cappuccino and black like my soul, which is how I tend to drink it.<laugh>, I would make my own pot of coffee. I guess I'll do the aspirational cappuccino cuz that would be my pick if I was at a coffee shop.
Speaker 3:Uh, yeah this is hard for me cuz I don't know that any of these are the exact way I normally take it
Speaker 1:When you don't take coffee so you don't have any context.<laugh>, you don't take coffee, drink coffee.<laugh>.
Speaker 3:Um, let's, why couldn't they just have a regular latte?<laugh>? Um, I guess I'll go with local and organic and I feel like I know what kind place I'll get.
Speaker 2:Darlene's gonna live in Portland.
Speaker 3:Exactly. That's exactly what I was thinking.
Speaker 1:What's your jam of all these songs listed of a little torn between hips don't live at Shakira Hip suit and tie by Justin Timber. I'm gonna go with hips, don't like. Oh
Speaker 2:Yeah, these are not my fas for these options.<laugh>. Yeah, so I'm probably also between Hips Don't lie and Sweet Child of Mine. So I'll go with Guns and Roses.
Speaker 3:It's funny that we're um, hips don't Lie is on everyone's like I'm torn between, but yes, I think it'd be either between Hips Don't Lie or Royals by Lord. I feel like I'm betrayed. Shak, Kira<laugh>.
Speaker 1:Just
Speaker 2:Words. Don's going to prison so maybe it's okay to betray her. She didn't pay her taxes. She's legit going to prison.<laugh> her hips don't lie but her accountant does.<laugh>
Speaker 3:<laugh> her accountant.
Speaker 1:Which song did you pick?
Speaker 3:I went with Royals only because if it was a different song for Shakira I probably would've gone with Shakira.
Speaker 1:So the next question is what could you eat forever? This is a hard question because so many of my favorites are listed on here.
Speaker 2:I know I would eat all of these,
Speaker 1:Right? Like I like tacos, I like pizza, sushi's pretty good. Tacos, burritos, enchiladas. That sounds bomb but I'm kind of just a chicken person. I'm gonna say that only because chicken can be prepared so many different ways where like it wouldn't feel like I was constantly eating the same thing even though I refuse to order chicken when I go out to eat cuz I eat it so often.
Speaker 2:Yeah I think I may go curry any kind for sort of the same reason as it gives me a lot of options compared to like the pizza one.
Speaker 3:Mm. I'm gonna go with beans and rice for life because yeah. Um, those are like staples in my culture and in my family. Like Salvadorians love rice and beans.
Speaker 1:I'll give you that. Pick a hashtag. If I had to pick one of these I'd probably say, sorry, I'm not sorry.<laugh>,
Speaker 2:I'm a hundred percent on yellow Used ironically.
Speaker 4:<laugh>. Yeah,<laugh>.
Speaker 3:And I love how they included just yellow by itself, but those people who
Speaker 4:Really like about that life don't
Speaker 3:Use it. Ironically. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh God I didn't notice. Blessed though.
Speaker 4:If
Speaker 2:It said blessed, ironically that's what I would pick.
Speaker 4:<laugh>.
Speaker 2:Oh no, I'll stick with yellow. Ironically I guess
Speaker 3:I think I'll go for the same. I don't know that I, yeah, I don't think I can explicitly say sorry, I'm not sorry cause I feel like I'm always Sorry.
Speaker 4:<laugh>.<laugh>
Speaker 1:Pick a Beyonce. Oh my god. Okay.
Speaker 4:Illuminati. Beyonce. Beyonce is awesome.<laugh>
Speaker 1:I'm going with, I was torn between Destiny's Child, Beyonce and Illuminati. Beyonce but Illuminati. Beyonce. Oh
Speaker 4:Illuminati.
Speaker 2:Beyonce is amazing.
Speaker 1:My cheeks hurt from laughing. I'm going with
Speaker 4:<laugh>.
Speaker 2:Oh man. Um, I'll go Who run the World Girls Beyonce even though Illuminati Beyonce. I really want that but I don't wanna just copy you.
Speaker 4:No,
Speaker 1:I mean that's how you feel and you know you gotta say it so it can tell you where you're gonna live.
Speaker 2:I do also like 22 days vegan
Speaker 1:<laugh>.
Speaker 3:I'm so mad that there isn't a Coachella Beyonce cuz that would be my obvious choice. I won't go with
Speaker 1:But 22 days vegan. That's what she went 22 days vegan for. She went vegan for Coachella. Okay,
Speaker 3:So then that's what, that's my choice then.
Speaker 1:<laugh>. I am not part of the beehive. I just happened to know that.<laugh>. What's on the top of your bucket list?
Speaker 3:Hmm.
Speaker 4:Darlene and Coachella is here.<laugh>.
Speaker 3:Well the sad thing is I love Beyonce at Coachella. I personally would not want to be in the desert<laugh>.
Speaker 1:Um, my answer is relaxing in Bali. I wanna be like in one of those like swim up pools, you know, with the in like the elephants. That's Bali, right? Yeah, yeah. With the floating breakfast on the little, yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh this one's tough. Um, torn between backpacking Europe and going on safari. Uh, I guess I'll do safari just because I have not been anywhere on a safari and I've been to parts of Europe and done some backpacking. So Safari it is,
Speaker 3:I think I'll go with backpacking Europe.
Speaker 1:So the next question is pick your poison.
Speaker 4:<laugh>. Yes.<laugh>.
Speaker 1:Y'all. I don't even drink so, um, I'm just gonna randomly click on wood.<laugh>. Mojito sounds cute.
Speaker 3:Yeah,
Speaker 4:Mojitos are nice.
Speaker 2:Mojitos are good. Um, I don't know. I've been on a whiskey kit lately though. Um,
Speaker 1:Shot. Shot. Saw the
Speaker 4:<laugh>.<laugh>.
Speaker 2:Uh, I'll go with the whiskey. I guess
Speaker 3:I'll go with the mojito.
Speaker 1:What do you look for in a ma
Speaker 4:<laugh>? I
Speaker 1:Know. Um,<laugh>. I'm gonna go with sets of humor though. Some of these other responses are also pretty hilarious.
Speaker 3:Wait, oh you said sense of humor?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:See but how is that different from witty? Trump's
Speaker 4:Pretty<laugh>. It's about how you, you say it<laugh>
Speaker 1:Like that in itself is witty.
Speaker 3:Well it's like sense of humor is like he could still be attractive but then witty trump's wit is like, listen,
Speaker 4:He's really funny.<laugh>.
Speaker 2:Oh no. Okay. Um hmm. I do like only a smarty getson.
Speaker 4:<laugh>. Oh my god. Um,
Speaker 1:You can go with it.
Speaker 4:I'll
Speaker 2:Go with
Speaker 3:It. I think I'm gonna go with witty. Trump's pretty
Speaker 1:Witty. Trump's pretty, how do you exercise?
Speaker 3:Oh no,
Speaker 1:What's
Speaker 4:Exercised?<laugh>?
Speaker 2:Um, okay, well I exercise a fair amount, but I'm not sure any of these are quite right.<laugh>
Speaker 1:Living my life is exercise enough. I didn't see that but I
Speaker 4:<laugh> I actually kinda like it. I'm gonna go with that. Yeah, sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 2:Um, physically I don't bloat. It's
Speaker 1:A
Speaker 4:Gift.
Speaker 2:I don't know. Maybe I should go with hiking though cuz everything I like to do is outdoors. So I, I'll do hiking that will cover my cycling and paddling and yeah.
Speaker 1:<laugh>.
Speaker 3:I hike like twice a year<laugh> and that's like it. So I think I should put living my life as exercise enough.
Speaker 1:<laugh>, pick your ideal last meal. Oh, hungry. So these all look really good.
Speaker 3:I've thought of this question but it's my mom's cooking so this just feels like really hard. I'm like it's none of
Speaker 2:These, none of these.
Speaker 1:None of, yeah, none of these but like of these. But they're all fine being my favorite. I'm torn between maybe like I do like pizza, but like, I don't know if I want it to be my last meal. I do like sushi, but again, don't know if I want it to be my last meal. Maybe pad Thai noodles if they're spicy.
Speaker 2:Well and like who's making them? Like is this like top of the class food or is this a prison making it for you because you're on death row?
Speaker 1:Or like why is lobster role an option for my last meal but not actual lobster? Like,
Speaker 2:Like I don't want prison sushi<laugh>
Speaker 1:Bagel sandwich<laugh>.
Speaker 2:I guess I'll pick sushi.
Speaker 3:Hmm. I'm still torn. I think I'm gonna go with ramen.
Speaker 2:Okay. We have answers. What'd you get? Haa
Speaker 1:Portland. You are a free spirit but not in the la way in the, you're probably more culture than most of your friends' way you're up to date at all. The latest coffee brewing techniques. I don't drink coffee. Have a long list of the local blogs you love to read and can taste the organic goodness in every bite you eat. Move to Portland already. You sexy smarty pants<laugh>.
Speaker 3:Mine is what's stopping you ho?
Speaker 2:Mine's a total fail. I got London. It says, let's be honest, you probably look pretty good in a Burberry trench coat. You
Speaker 1:Probably
Speaker 2:Would. Oh well thanks. You're the type of person who loves city life wrong but without all the hype. Your ideal day consists of the tape modern, a pleasant evening at a nice restaurant and a hot cup of tea before bed.
Speaker 1:There's like no
Speaker 3:<laugh>. Yeah, I got the same. You got London. Got London as well. So Yeah cuz I was surprised. I thought I would get Portland<laugh>.
Speaker 2:I thought so too.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Overall,
Speaker 3:But like the non coffee drinker Got it.<laugh>. Right? Like
Speaker 1:Overall I think we could say that this was, uh, it was, it was probably one of the most fun quizzes we've
Speaker 3:Done. Yeah.
Speaker 2:We we should write our own for this one. Cause I feel like we can't inflict this on our, on our, on our listeners. Listeners. We can do better.
Speaker 1:Yes. Maybe we could do a which Maryland town
Speaker 2:<laugh>. Yes. Which small town in Maryland do you need to live in? Stay
Speaker 1:Tuned
Speaker 2:<laugh>. Each episode we ask whether our book passes the Bechtel test. The Bechtel test asks whether our work features two female characters who talk to each other about something that doesn't involve men or boys. So does it pass?
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:Yes. Yeah, definitely. Yeah.
Speaker 1:About conversation
Speaker 2:For showy.
Speaker 1:The, yeah. Well that's it for this episode of these books made me join us next time when we'll discuss a book about aesthetician haired girl who drives a blue roadster. If you think you know which book we're tackling next, drop us a tweet. We're at pgc mls on Twitter and hashtag these books made me. You can also send us your questions at these books Made me@pgcmls.info.