Neil Gaiman gave us a children's fantasy horror book for the ages with Coraline, which follows its titular character through a dark adventure like no other complete with performing mice, human-like creatures with buttons for eyes, a talking cat and a humanoid arachnid soul-stealing witch. In this episode we discuss Gaiman's penchant for borrowing from classic children's literature, his quotability and his deft ability at sneaking in life lessons (dad-isms) without having his work feel moralizing. One of our hosts also makes the ultimate faux pas ('It's Coraline, not Caroline. Coraline.').
These Books Made Me is a podcast about the literary heroines who shaped us and is a product of the Prince George's County Memorial Library System podcast network. Stay in touch with us via Twitter @PGCMLS with #TheseBooksMadeMe or by email at TheseBooksMadeMe@pgcmls.info. For recommended readalikes and deep dives into topics related to each episode, visit our blog at https://pgcmls.medium.com/.
We mentioned a lot of topics in this episode. Here’s a brief list of some informative articles about some of them if you want to do your own further research:
Neil Gaiman on libraries: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/oct/15/neil-gaiman-future-libraries-reading-daydreaming
Neil Gaiman on fear and scary stories: https://www.themarginalian.org/2014/03/20/neil-gaiman-ghost-stories/
Neil Gaiman gave us a children's fantasy horror book for the ages with Coraline, which follows its titular character through a dark adventure like no other complete with performing mice, human-like creatures with buttons for eyes, a talking cat and a humanoid arachnid soul-stealing witch. In this episode we discuss Gaiman's penchant for borrowing from classic children's literature, his quotability and his deft ability at sneaking in life lessons (dad-isms) without having his work feel moralizing. One of our hosts also makes the ultimate faux pas ('It's Coraline, not Caroline. Coraline.').
These Books Made Me is a podcast about the literary heroines who shaped us and is a product of the Prince George's County Memorial Library System podcast network. Stay in touch with us via Twitter @PGCMLS with #TheseBooksMadeMe or by email at TheseBooksMadeMe@pgcmls.info. For recommended readalikes and deep dives into topics related to each episode, visit our blog at https://pgcmls.medium.com/.
We mentioned a lot of topics in this episode. Here’s a brief list of some informative articles about some of them if you want to do your own further research:
Neil Gaiman on libraries: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/oct/15/neil-gaiman-future-libraries-reading-daydreaming
Neil Gaiman on fear and scary stories: https://www.themarginalian.org/2014/03/20/neil-gaiman-ghost-stories/
Hi, I'm
Speaker 2:Howa. And I'm Darlene.
Speaker 1:And this is our podcast these books made me. Today we're diving into the other world with Neil Gay men's coralline friendly warning. As always, this podcast contains spoilers. If you don't yet know who's trapped in a snow globe, proceed with caution. We have a special guest joining us today. Would you like to introduce yourself?
Speaker 3:Hi, I'm Johnny Gordy. I'm a librarian at the Upper Marlboro Library. So was this everyone's first time reading? And if not, how did this reread compare to your memories of reading it when you were younger?
Speaker 1:So as always, this was my first time reading it. Um, but I'm actually really glad I got to read it. It was a really cute, well, not, it was a good story. It was a good story. I'll leave it at that for now. You'll get more of my feelings as we get into the discussion. But yes,<laugh>.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, this was not my first time reading it, but I didn't read it during, I guess the time that I would be like the target audience for this. I read it after the movie cause I was really curious about it. So by that point I, I was in college, maybe I was like starting college. So I don't think I had the mindset of like a child reading it and I feel like I wish I did so that I would know how I would've responded to it as a child. But uh, yeah, no, I really enjoyed it when I read it and I enjoy it on reread as well.
Speaker 3:So this was also not my first time reading it. I read this book for the first time, like right after it came out. And I think I was a senior in high school, um, or maybe, maybe like the summer between senior year and my first year of college. So I also wasn't reading it really as like a child, a true child at nine years old I guess. And I reread it, you know, to prepare for today and I mean it totally holds up<laugh> and I love it so much.
Speaker 2:All right, so now we're gonna get some author info from Johnny. Yes.
Speaker 3:Okay, so Neil Gayman is one of my, um, this probably shouldn't be part of the bio, but he's totally one of my favorite authors.<laugh><laugh>.
Speaker 2:No, it must be noted. Yeah,
Speaker 3:<laugh>. Um, but Neil Gaman is one of the most prolific authors of our time. His work span all genres and eant readers of all ages. He is a huge advocate for public libraries and he uses his platform to Fernly express the importance of a library to a community. One of my like favorite quotes of his is he said I wouldn't be who I am without libraries. I was the sort of kid who devoured books and my happiest times as a boy were when I persuaded my parents to drop me off in the local library on their way to work and I spent the day there, I discovered that librarians actually wanna help you. They taught me about interlibrary loans, which I just love<laugh><laugh>, especially the inner library loans.<laugh>. Uh, he started his writing career as a journalist and was tapped to write the biographies of the eighties band Duran Duran and of the famous author of The Hitchhiker's Guy to the Galaxy Douglas Adams. While these books were well received, you know, he does mention in one of his interviews that he learned quickly in his early career that it was more important to him to write out of excitement and joy than for money. And so some of his early major success was found in his Sandman comics, which are incredibly popular and super awesome, The Sandman series. It was the first comic ever to actually receive the World Fantasy Award for best short story and really any literary award ever, which is like completely nuts. His novella core line that we're discussing today won the Hugo Award for best novella and the Ram Stoker award for best work for young readers among many others, the majority of gay men's novels and stories have been adapted into television or movies, including Coralline. Many of his written biographies online are mainly a list of all his awards and commendations, which there are just so many. But one of the reasons why I love Neil Gayman is when he writes his introductions to his books or when he gives his, like describes his own biography, his autobiography, I guess he tells it in stories about his childhood, the people who made an impact on his life, like public librarians and why he chooses to write and tell stories like he does, which is why he's truly one of my favorite fairy tale writers and many others.
Speaker 1:So now Darlene is gonna give us a little bit of a plot summary.
Speaker 2:All right. So Coline follows the titular character through an adventure like no other. After moving into a new place with her parents, Coline, with her sense of adventure and wonder goes exploring, finding things to occupy her time, while her parents are too busy to pay her much attention, she soon grows bored and eventually fixates on a door in her home that seemingly leads to nowhere that night. However, she opens the door again and finds it leads to a world much like her own, with versions of adults from her own world with notable differences such as the inhabitants having buttons for eyes. Her quote unquote other mother offers coline the attention mystery and adventure she yearns for in her own world. But not everything is as good as it seems. And soon Coline has to find the courage to save herself, her parents, and a few souls she's met along the way from an evil conniving bedo who seeks to keep Coralline in the other world until she wastes away into nothing.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for that plot summary, Darlene. All right, now let's get into a little bit of discussion. So my first question for y'all is how do you think that this book held up? Was there anything in it that seemed like it was problematic that stood out to you? Or do you feel like uh, there were things in it that may have aged the book a little bit? I'll let y'all think on that for a little bit. Or just in general how the story held up
Speaker 2:<laugh>. Yeah, I think this just goes back to when we were talking about when we first read it. I just wish that I was a child like reading it again or that I could've gone back in time and like read it as a child. Because I think that the age at which you read it really informs the reader. And I think he's said in interviews before that like adults tell'em how scary it is and how they're scared to like, uh, give it to their kids cause they don't know if it's maybe too spooky for them. But that kids have gone up to him and said that it's like a wonderful like fantasy build adventure and they like love it. And yeah, and I think he maybe was quoted as saying that he thinks it's because adults know the danger present in it in a way that like kids don't<laugh>. And so, yeah, I mean I was like reading it and I was, I'm just so like very aware of just how much danger core line is in and I feel like, I feel like for her she's like tackling everything like as it comes, whereas you're like, why are you there to begin with<laugh>? So yeah, I wish, I wish I had read it as a child, especially cuz like also as an adult you're conceptualizing like her bravery and like how it's coming about. But like as a child, I don't know, feel like it just is<laugh>. Yeah. It just is. Right. She just is brave in that moment. So yeah,
Speaker 3:I feel the same way. I mean I wish I had been nine like war line when I read the book for the first time, but it, what was something that I took from this book rereading it and when I read it the first time was the relationship with her dad. Mm-hmm<affirmative>, you know, throughout the book. Like she has the, the other dad and you know, but the dad in the story, like he's busy and he, you know, can't take a lot of time during the day. But the other instances that she mentions in the book of uh, him cooking for, you know, her family, these recipes that she calls them<laugh>, you know, but like that is like, you know, a sign of love to feed you as to love you. Like he makes time to spend with his family. She tells the story about, you know, being brave in the face of danger and the story of her dad and you know, the wasps, which I'm sure we'll touch on later. But that was something that like I just noticed in the first time I read it and after where it was like just the relationship that she had with her real parents, like wasn't a bad one. You know, like I think that was like a lot of when you know, I would talk about it with other people like throughout the years it was like, oh well her parents were like ne like negligent and it was like, not really. It was summer and they were busy. That's literally like how every story like starts, you know, it's like a board kid that goes to try and find some adventure. So it definitely holds up. It like works on so many levels. Two things can be true. You know, the grass isn't always greener. I mean there's just like all of these things that he just creates this world that is familiar but like completely unique. It's just awesome. He's awesome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I, I can't, I don't really have anything to add to that. I do do think that it holds up very well and there was nothing. And because I knew that we were gonna ask this question, of course in my mind I'm always wondering like, is there something that they maybe could have just not included in there that may have been seen as like possibly like problematic. But to me there was nothing in the book like that that stood out to me, which is probably one of the few books that we've touched on that just was, didn't have anything that somebody could probably pull out and be like, well, hmm, maybe you shouldn't have said that. Yeah. So I think it overall holds up pretty well. Like you all said, I do kind of wish that I had taken this in when I was the target audience because I feel like it, I feel like it would've been just such an inspiring story in a way. I know it may be weird to call it inspiring, but like hearing like a child protagonist that's your age, talk about what makes them brave. It's just so amazing. So we can get into some of a little bit more of the discussion. I think since I'm already kind of talking about it, I think bravery is one of the first things that I wanted to touch on. But yeah, I don't know like how do you guys feel about the way bravery was portrayed in this book? Especially like, you know, for the children who are reading this book or taking this in.
Speaker 3:Honestly I think it's so straightforward and it's just amazing. Like she says at one point I'm not scared and then she's like, I'm not scared. She makes it a statement. She remembers times of like, fear doesn't equal power to, it's facing fear that makes you brave. Being afraid isn't cowardly and just doing something in the face of fear is bravery. And the story that she tells with her dad, you know, where they step on a was nest and he tells her to run up the hill and run and she does, she obeys him and runs up the hill and turns around and her dad's been stung like 39 times and he tells her, you know, it wasn't brave for me to, to keep the wasps occupied because I knew that was the only thing I could do to keep you safe. What was really, you know,<laugh> brave of me was to go back later and get my glasses that fell off, you know, knowing that there was a hive of wasps down there. And that story is kind of like what she uses to like motivate herself, but she's so like practical about her bravery. There's nothing else I can do. This is just what has to be done to save my parents and you know, to do the right thing.
Speaker 1:<laugh>. Right.<laugh>.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You know, I think that's what struck me about it like several times. Like she, you know, the cat would be like, Why don't you just go away? And she would just be like, Well she has my parents, I cannot just leave. Right. So yeah, it was very like practical of her to be brave in that moment. I don't know, I think that that's important to like have as a message in a children's book where they are already thinking about it that way. Because I think as you age I feel like you just become more scared, right? Yeah. Cause you're so aware
Speaker 1:Of Yes. You learn so much more about the world and how the world is Right. And you have more things to be scared of. Whereas I feel like for her at this time, the scariest thing for her was not having her parents. Right. Right. So if if doing something to save her parents was scary for her, it still wasn't scarier than the idea of her not having them at
Speaker 2:All. Right. Right. Exactly. And
Speaker 3:At the end when she's like, it's her first day of school, so the summer ends and she's like, Oh, the first day of school. Like, you know, usually I'm anxious about the first day of school but there's nothing to be scared about. Like there's other things. Yeah. Make things to be scared about than the first day of school. And as a nine year old, I mean like being like I don't have to be scared of the first day of school. I can just go and be myself and do my thing and have the best time. Love
Speaker 1:How they slid that little life lesson into kids.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:At the,
Speaker 2:I loved that cause I was like, Yeah, I think that's something that you don't, you recognize with like experience. And I think that that was such a nice, and it wasn't like too on the nose or like two in your face way of saying that the more you experience the less scary things, Stephen in comparison. So I really like that and I, I think it really speaks to Neil Gayman in general and how he approached this book. There are a lot of like little life lessons there, but he's not hitting you over the head. Right.<laugh>. It's kind of just like, yeah, these are things maybe you wanna think about. And I think you kind of touched on this, Johnny the grass isn't always greener on the other side. I think that's a really big one that could come off as a little moralizing, but I don't know. He does it in a way that just feels very natural. Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah. He doesn't say you better appreciate your parents or else, but he shows you, you know, to how to appreciate what you have in a way. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, one thing that stood out to me was that uh, you know, when she sees the help us in the mirror and you know, she's like, Oh, I know what to do. And I'm thinking, she knows immediately she's good to go straight to the door. She's like, No, I'm gonna call the police<laugh>. Right. And then poor her, they didn't believe her. So like I think that what, how do y'all think that speaks to like, about children and them not being listened to or being believed because, you know, he was just like, well tell your parent, your mom to make you some hot chocolate<laugh> and get rid of the nightmare is Yeah.
Speaker 3:So patronizing. I
Speaker 2:I think that the way that he approached that was also really interesting because Coraline kind of doubles down and knows the experience that she had. Yes. Cause there's, yeah, there's a moment after she saves everyone and her parents are like unaware. And it's funny the way that he phrases it, that they're just like missing, you know, they're just missing a couple days in their lives and that as adults, that's just the kind of thing that happens. Yeah. But yeah, and I don't know that she ever really doubts herself, but then she finds the little like stone in her pocket and the marbles and she's like, No, this happened. Yeah. Uh, so it was just kind of like that quiet reassurance.
Speaker 1:She really went on about her life for a while. It was just like, okay, well I'm hungry, let me go to the supermarket to buy some I made cause I<laugh>.
Speaker 3:Well that was like the other thing where, you know, again, as an adult reading it, we can kind of read between the lines, but he's also telling children sometimes adults are not going to help you. Yeah. Like how you need at that moment. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, like, she goes to Miss Mrs. Spank and Miss Forcible and says the same thing. She's like, My parents are missing. And they're like, Okay, well tell them that we're not gonna be in tomorrow. We're like going off to do stuff. And
Speaker 1:She's love, they have this newspaper.
Speaker 3:She wanted something like that. And she's like, Oh well, like I don't know where they are. And I've been, and they're just like, Okay, like have a great day. Like whatever. And then she calls the police and it's sort of the same like, like Okay. Yeah. The, the bedo with the scary fingers. Yeah. Like, and so it's like you're not always gonna be listened to and you're gonna have to sometimes be self-reliant and,
Speaker 1:And I love that she didn't doubt herself though. Exactly. There was never a moment of doubting herself, which I feel like as a child reading this, Yes. You know, you never know what a child that's reading this could go through. So it kind of ma it kind of, I think reinforces the idea of you may be going through something, you may be trying to tell people in your life that this is happening, but don't doubt yourself or don't doubt that this is what you're going through or the, or the seriousness of it if it's something that's important to you. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And that like that is just the best learning as a kid that like, you know, if you are speaking your truth to someone and even if they're not listening, to not doubt yourself and to do what you need to do,
Speaker 1:Speak it louder if you need to.
Speaker 3:Exactly.<laugh>.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. I, I don't know, I just really love reading children's books, like how they shape people or like how they shape kids, um, while they're reading it. But yeah, I mean, speaking back to how we were talking about how it doesn't condescend to kids, I think one thing I remember flagging on my book was there was this part where Miss Formo says, I forgot what she said Don't do. And then she said, or mention the Scottish play, which is like a throwback to like theater space.
Speaker 3:Don't wear a green in your dressing room or
Speaker 2:Something. Oh, okay. Is that what it was? Um, and then like right after the like narrator, which sort of is kind of explaining coral line's train of thought, but is not the first person narration, but it's like Coralline wondered why so few of the adults she had met made any sense<laugh>. She sometimes wondered who they thought they were talking to. I was like, that's such a funny line<laugh>.
Speaker 1:It made me wonder. I'm like, Yo, do kids that see me in their life wonder why I don't make sense?
Speaker 3:<laugh>? Like
Speaker 2:Who does she think she's talking to? Yeah.
Speaker 3:Well so one of the best things in my opinion about Neil Gayman is I kind of how I mentioned like he pulls so many like familiar ideas and story elements that make you immediately comfortable reading the story. So like the mirrors and the keys and the apple, there's all these things, but he, he just like creates a world that is very specific to that character and then that character experiences a lot but then just learns everything. But this book, at the end, she returns the stone. Like if I had gone through<laugh>, what Coralline went through, I would not be returning the stone<laugh>. You know, like, she's just like, Oh thanks. Like I don't need it. You know,
Speaker 1:You never know what that stone could get you through later on in life. Like Right.
Speaker 3:If you don't know what's out there and then you're just like, okay, I got through this thing and you know, now someone else could maybe like use this or something. Like it was so that it's like he created this character and she's kind of, you know, like she's a fictional character but then she's incredibly mature and just self-aware.
Speaker 1:She grew up so much in that like, what, two days<laugh>? Yeah. Like
Speaker 3:It's just like, like what nine year old is like, okay, I don't need this anymore. Like now that I've like done this.
Speaker 2:But no. Yeah. I think that you're right. I was actually wondering if this counts as a coming of age story because I mean she is, I actually couldn't uh, tell what her age was, but, but you said that she's
Speaker 3:Nine so it definitely does not say in the book that she is nine mm-hmm.<affirmative>. When I was reading some different things online just to get some background, they apparently he was like, she's supposed to be around nine.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay. Yeah. Cuz I, I think it reads very much coming of age and especially like the, I think it's also the little like lessons that Neil Gaman adds in it. Yeah. Where it's like these are the things that you have to like figure out for yourself. Which yeah, it's always nice to like have this character that maybe to everyone else doesn't seem like much, you know, that she would be so self reliant and brave. But yeah, in the end she really gets that quiet self assurance to the point that in the final pages of the book, she like corrects everyone on her name cuz everyone in the flat just keeps calling her. Caroline. I
Speaker 1:Was even calling her Caroline when I was reading it aloud.<laugh>, I got it right by the end of the book though. How do you all feel that Coralline is, uh, is as a role model for young girls or really any young children reading this
Speaker 3:Book? Oh my goodness. Well, I definitely think that she is a role model for young girls and like to touch on the bravery thing again. I mean obviously she's brave, competent, self reliant, she's confident in herself, she's practical, logical, you know, and she's also empathetic. Like she, she won't leave the souls behind that are caught in the mirror. She won't leave the cat behind. I mean the souls at one point, the two are like, Okay, you have two of us. Let's go, let's go<laugh>, let's go. You know? And she's like, No. And she does really scary things like the other Miss Spank and mis forceful. They're in this like gross jelly cocoon together and she has to like stick her hand in and get one of the souls. Yeah. It's like that is like terrifying imagery. But again, he doesn't write her as being afraid. It's again, it's just I have to do this. Yeah. This is what I have to do. But in the, just to touch on the brave briefing again and something that I just, like, I just thought of in the other world when she meets her other dad in the basement mm-hmm.<affirmative>, she actually encourages him to be brave. She's like, you can be brave. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And he's like, I can't,
Speaker 2:Yeah. I flagged that too when I, I feel kind of sad<laugh>. Yeah. When I put like Caroline As role model and I put like, yeah, she showed compassion for her other father, which she didn't have to, I mean he was scary and like even if you knew that he was kind of doing other mother's bidding, I think she recognized that that's not something he really wanted to do and that he had no agency in it. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And so for her to like in that moment that's really scary. Mm-hmm<affirmative> for her to like still show compassion and empathy for him. I thought that was like really nice to include. Yeah. And just, I think you also touched on this before Johnny, but just the fact that she's very straightforward about certain things. I think they were, who was it? I think the kid or the souls were saying that the other mother will like keep her forever and she just says, no she won't. Period.<laugh> like,
Speaker 3:No<laugh>. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Love that. Yeah. She knew, she knew her goal, what, what her goal was from the very beginning when it came to that. Yeah. But, you know, So what was the scariest part of this book for you all? Because I mean like, you know, it's always hard for me when people say, Oh my God, a book was scary. Like Right. Cuz you how, how can you be scared if you know what's about, well you don't know what's about to happen, but like, what felt scary to you? I'll let you guys go and then I'll share mine.
Speaker 3:<laugh> for me the scariest part was the end with the hand. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, I mean the hand is by far the scar like trying to get the key and like, and she has like the dream picnic with the souls that she released from the mirror and they're like, Oh wait, whoa, whoa. It's not over. I mean it's over for us<laugh>, you know. And she's like, Wait, what? You know? And then there's this like creepy hand and of course like all a ton of the imagery in the book is of the other mother's hands being these like long fingers, bright,
Speaker 1:It's trapping on the eyes. Yes.
Speaker 3:<laugh> with the long red fingernails and them being like spidery and like gross and then imagining the hand just like running<laugh>.
Speaker 1:You
Speaker 3:Know, like it's just like Ill, and knowing that it's, she knows that it's like around Yeah. You know, like she can hear it a couple times I think.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It kind of takes you back to that whole thing of like the unknown. Like, you know it's there but you don't know what it's up to or what it's about to do or when it's gonna try to come at you. So I felt like that's a good
Speaker 2:One. Yeah. There was a lot of tension in that last part.
Speaker 3:It felt like more tension than the whole, I was like,
Speaker 1:Well there's like three pages, like what's
Speaker 3:Happening<laugh>.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think I would agree that that was very scary. But the first one that came to mind was when other mother locked her up in the mirror and it was like complete darkness and it was where she saw the souls. I don't know why that, Oh,
Speaker 1:That's what I was
Speaker 3:Gonna say.<laugh>.
Speaker 2:It just seems so scary to me to like think that someone would just keep you in the dark forever. And then you have all these souls that are basically telling you what happened to them and
Speaker 1:How, how long they've been there.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's like, oh you're gonna lose your memories, but like your name will go first and like, um, yeah, she just kind of like dotes on you but then she's basically taking your energy and then she just leaves you here to like waste away and, and then corn line's like, Ugh, when is she gonna let me out<laugh>. I was like, she might not.
Speaker 1:I like that. You mentioned same thing that I was gonna mention about the closet being the scariest part to me. Just because like first of all, you, you locked down a closet and then you realize there are other people in here and then you realize how long they've been in there. You mentioned that they said that their names were the one of the first things to go. And I think the names in this book are kind of like important in a way. We know that she doesn't learn the quote unquote crazy old man's name until the very end. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, they're all always messing up her name in her world, but in the other world they get it right? Mm-hmm.<affirmative> and then Johnny, I know we talked about it before we started recording, but like about the, what was it, the cat saying that uh, the cat, you know, names aren't important to us because
Speaker 3:We know who we are. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:<affirmative>. Yeah. Yes, exactly. It's funny because as we were talking about that, I was thinking, Oh, what's in a name? And then later on in the book they say what's in a name? Like, and I'm like, Oh, okay. About that into existence.
Speaker 3:<laugh>. Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah. The way that he says that is actually kind of funny. I don't know, like funny and like a little poetic too. It's like now you people have names, that's because you don't know who you are. We know who we are, so we don't need names. Thank
Speaker 1:You for the quote<laugh>. I was,
Speaker 3:I was like trying to like quietly through. Yes.
Speaker 1:No, that's a good one. And it's funny because she's like, so what if I wanna call you for dinner? And he's like, just say dinner. Yeah.<laugh>.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:But it's funny, like, so my name being Johnny and being spelled j o and I, I mean it's like I, my name is never said correctly the first time, so I get like her kind of frustration about that. But then again, reading this book and being like, your name, your name doesn't like, yes it identifies you from others, but it's not your identity. You know, like these other things that we've described about her that's like, that's your identity. You're brave, you're competent, you're smart, you're kind, you're empathetic. That was kind of like one of the main thing, especially for me. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> who I, like when I was little I'd be like, Oh, Johnny's my first name. Joanie is my second name. Yeah.<laugh> because I just was called Jonie all the time and it just was like, I'm not even, I can't even correct anymore. Like I'm, it's just a never ending job. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And so being like, it doesn't matter what someone really calls you and ultimately it's who you are. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> like who are you? And so again, as it like if I was just like you said like wish I was nine to be like, you know, just because someone's not saying my name Right. It doesn't diminish who I am. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:<affirmative> and I like that they made that point. But she still was correcting people throughout the book. Yes. Like I like that it wasn't like, oh you can just let people call you whatever. Yes. It's like, oh no, that doesn't make you who you are, but you can still say this is who this is me. You know? Right.
Speaker 3:Yes, exactly. I love
Speaker 2:It. Yeah. And it, I do like that the book constantly reinforces uh, that she is who she is. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> despite all the things that make her kind of feel like she's walking on uneven ground. And part of that is like when they mispronounce her name. But then it was like even when she was in the other house where she woke up and she was in her other room and it said that she felt like dislocated mm-hmm.<affirmative> and that she wasn't entirely sure who she was. And oftentimes like form your identity by like all the things around you and when they aren't there, when they aren't these like markers that, you know, you do feel a little like uneven and unsure, but she still regained kind of that bravery that propels her to still look for her parents and like get out. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Oh my goodness. I just love Coraline
Speaker 4:<laugh>. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I guess to like go back to the main question, it's like yeah, I think she's actually a really inspiring character for kids to kind of just see everything that she goes through and kind of find a lot of meaning in it.
Speaker 3:Mm-hmm.<affirmative>.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Johnny, I know one of the things that you mentioned that you liked about the book was that you felt like Neil Gaman and just kinda like the modern fairy tale, like modern grim of our time. If you wanted to tell us a little bit more about that. Cuz I feel like, you know, you seem to really passionate about it.
Speaker 3:I do. I just love, I love Neil Gaman too so much. So my dad was in the Navy, I was the Navy brat. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> and I grew up for a shorts span of time in England. And so a lot of Neil Gaiman's works being set in England. And then like the other fairytale authors I think of as European obviously, you know, like Hans Christian Anderson, the brothers Graham roll doll, Jr. Tolkin. But Neil Gayman, he really does, he pulls from all of these just amazing stories. So like this time reading it, I really focused on the food aspect. You know, she talks about the recipes and the dad and like whatever. But then she realizes like in the other world that you know, the food, what she was being fed was causing her not to see clearly. Wait,
Speaker 1:What?
Speaker 3:So I didn't even
Speaker 1:Catch that<laugh>. So that's why I love talking about those book books with y'all because y'all helped me catch things I didn't even catch. And
Speaker 3:So when she goes, when she goes back and they're like, Well, you'll be back. You'll be back. And then when she goes back she brings those apples with her.
Speaker 1:Oh. So she doesn't have to eat their food
Speaker 3:So she doesn't have to eat their food. So here's the fairytale apple. I mean, you know, like it's again all these like familiar things but in a completely unique way. The black cat being vermin, you know, when in a lot of stories the black cat is you, you know, this kind of symbol of darkness and evil mm-hmm.<affirmative> and here's the cat who's actually her savior towards the end he is the one that gets the rat with the key. Yeah. You know, and so he flip flops a lot of these norms and it's like nothing is evil or good. Like there's no true good or bad with things like that. Yeah. You know, like cats<laugh> apples bread. I mean, I don't know. It's just he's just able to create a familiar world using others. I hate to say that because that kind of makes them seem like a plagiarist as I'm like he takes for mothers.
Speaker 2:But I was gonna say like he borrows from like a long line of work and I think that that's intentional because I think that he knows who his audience is, right? Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And so he knows probably that they're gonna start reading all of these books. They're gonna read, you know, like Alice Wonderland and Doll Books and probably Narnia books. And so I feel like he's borrowing from like elements from all of these so that nothing in his book feels unfamiliar. Right. And so it, there's no like disorientation kind of with that, you know, when you read Coline. Cause I feel like everything else you've seen it somewhere else. Right. Even if like, you're not consciously thinking that you did mm-hmm.<affirmative>. So borrowing or kind of using it to his advantage, Right. To kind of place the reader where he wants the reader to
Speaker 1:Be. Yeah. I feel like there are elements that you're just familiar with from being in different, like fairytales or stories like this, but he like makes them his own in that way. It's so funny cuz I kept thinking that the black cat was gonna like turn against her, right? Mm-hmm<affirmative> like I was waiting for it and then it didn't happen and he ended up like saving the day, which was great
Speaker 3:The most. And then she uses, she uses him too. Like she, at the end he gets the key, but in the, when she's in the other world and he gets scared, she picks him up and the cat is trembling because you know, the house has fallen flat and there are no more exits, like secret exits for the cat and the cat's like we're done for. And she's like, no, it's fine. And picks some, you know, picks the cat up. And granted she uses the cat to like totally throw in the other mother's face and
Speaker 1:She apologized later. Yeah.<laugh>,
Speaker 3:Sorry. I mean we weren't all gonna get out, but like, you know, he is, he is like, he's the savior sort of twice in a way. Even though horror line, you know, is ultimately the true hero of the book. Obviously.
Speaker 1:One thing that I thought was interesting that I, I don't know if I fully like processed in my head, was the, the whole replacing the eyes as buttons. Things like what is the other mother Exactly. Yeah. Like, I don't know, what kind of creature are they? I guess, I don't know.<laugh>,
Speaker 3:So, So the souls, I think so when we were talking prior and we were sort of like the other mother is all of a sudden called the bedo. Um, and that I think started behind the mirror. And what's funny, so I looked up the word bedo.
Speaker 1:That's what I was about to do.
Speaker 3:And it's funny, it is, it's like an old English word bell for beautiful and then dumb for like damsel of like woman. Oh wow. But you would think so beautiful woman. But then it actually is like grandmother, which then has been kind of morphed into a witch. And that's interesting in itself because again, when she goes, she's like, Oh, she like the other mother looks like my mother. Yes. And then like she sees a beauty in mm-hmm.<affirmative> and then as it progresses it's like, Oh, okay. No.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Like by the end she's like, how did I ever think that this woman looked like my mother<laugh>?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I, I did the same thing and I remember like the very short definition is an old woman. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> and then it was like a malicious and ugly woman. Especially an old one. A witch. Yeah. So especially a old one.<laugh>, especially an old woman, which makes
Speaker 1:You wonder how old she actually is. Because if you think about like, you know, she had those children that were in the closets, like how long had they been there? Like what is the concept of time on this other side of the house? Right. Am I overthinking it? Possibly. But you know.
Speaker 3:Well, so there's a part where she's talking to the cat and, and she asks like, she's like, How did she find this? Or like how did she create like kind of, what's the backstory? And he's like, I don't know, like she found it, created it, who cares? It's here. Yeah. And we have to deal with it. So, you know,<laugh>, it's kind of funny too cuz it's like instead of wondering why and like trying to figure, it's like let's be in the moment and get past what we need to get past too. Which is kind of a weird thought as well because I would definitely wanna be like, So what's going on?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Like who is this then why?
Speaker 2:Yeah. And even in the end they don't explain it
Speaker 3:<laugh>. Right. And it's like, cuz I can only assume that she's attached to the house.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I guess so. Because it's like even, I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but like, you know, when you go too far out from the house, like she doesn't create a world further out than she probably thinks that people would go. Right. But then it, it's like it's circled back to the house at the end of it all. So it's just like,
Speaker 3:I don't know. Right.<laugh>. So it's like, I guess she's, yeah. So I, that's the only thing I can think is like she's attached to the house because it used to be like an old mansion or whatever. And I'm assuming that's where maybe the two, but then there's the, I mean the fairy ghost, I mean it's just like what?
Speaker 1:Yeah.<laugh>,
Speaker 3:Where did you come from? Are you attached to the house?
Speaker 2:<laugh>? Yeah. There was so many like fantastical things in this book that he kind of just brings up but then does not explain, which to me was kind of frustrating. I don't know. Again, I, I keep going back to like how I would've read it as a child, but yeah, as an adult I'm just like, I don't get like, So one of the souls was described as like having wings. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. So when they're having this like little picnic before they cross over coralline notes that one of the souls has wings and that there's something on her looks like spiderwebs. Was that
Speaker 1:The pale one? There's hmm. Was that the pale one?
Speaker 2:Yes. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And that there's like silver in her blonde hair and that, you know, at this picnic they're all eating their favorite meals and for her it's like a plate of flowers. Yeah. And that's just like all it says, it does not explain it further. I had this like whole moment with like my coworker where I was like, I don't get it. I was like, I don't get why he would bring up this sort of mystical or magical child. And then we were like trying to figure out in the movie, she's not even this at all. I think she's a kid that wanted to be a ballerina or something. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. So it explains it differently, but it's just, yeah. One of those things that he just kind of lays there, but he doesn't really fully explain. It's like, yep. This is just, she was some sort of weird mystically feature or I don't know,<laugh> that was mystically a word
Speaker 1:I was gonna say. Like I was reading and I was like, is there supposed to be like a part two to this or something<laugh>? Or like, maybe because I was reading it like super fast I missed something. But No, Johnny, go
Speaker 3:Ahead. Well so I feel like that's one of the best things about Neil Gayman is it's just like, again, it's matter of fact. It's like fairies exist. Yeah. Boom. Done. Fairies exist. You know? And it's like, oh I love that because things are, matter of fact, you almost kind of start to believe<laugh> and again, like you said as a nine year old and then that being that matter of fact it just is, it's like that is so magical.
Speaker 1:<laugh>. Yeah. Pretty much whatever. He didn't wrap up. It just is. Yeah,
Speaker 3:Exactly.
Speaker 1:<laugh>, I feel like more, more things should sometimes end that way. Like it just is mm-hmm.<affirmative> that that's okay. Yeah,
Speaker 2:That's true. I think a lot of fantasy writers sometimes do fall into this hole of like trying really hard to overexplain things and then it, it gets to be too complicated and convoluted. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> and then people do lose interest. So I guess I kind of understand and I, you know, it is a really short book. Um, you can get through it pretty quickly. So<laugh>,
Speaker 1:Cause I finished, I finished reading right before we started recording as usual<laugh>. That's how you keep the, the information fresh in
Speaker 2:Your head. No. Yeah, no, I agree. Hell
Speaker 3:<laugh>. I just wanted to like touch on, you know, Neil Gaman does take influences from other books, but the main stories I feel like he takes from children are the central heroes. Mm-hmm. Like Allison Wonderland, the Chronicles of Narnia, Hansel and Gretel. I mean it's like all these kind of children that are their own heroes and I love that. I feel like that, you know, he recognized reading as a child, these things inspired me. These things kind of put me on the path that I am now and I can like return the favor to today's children.
Speaker 1:Mm. I even feel inspired and I'm far from being nine so<laugh>. So I definitely, I definitely see that. Yeah. And honestly this story was, I, before I went in, all I really knew about Coralline was the movie and I hadn't even seen it. So I expected the story to be so much like I thought it was gonna be one of those things where I was gonna be reading and have to read the page over and over to understand what was going on. But it was, it was done really well I think in a way that didn't feel like it was being over explained. It just, it just was<laugh>. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think that speaks a lot to how Neil Gayman writes and what I really appreciate in his writing because it could be very matter of fact, like I love the little parts that he sprinkles in to kind of give you a sense of coline's personality. Like there was one where it was just describing her boredom and it's like she counted everything blue and then in parenthesis it's 1 53 and she counted the Windows 21 and I don't know, I just thought that was like a really fun little detail. But like it gave you a sense of who Coline is and then also like a tangent it kind of reminded me of, of that like little debate that people were having. Are there more doors or wheels in the world?<laugh>
Speaker 1:<laugh>? No, when she was doing it I was like, yo, this kind of sounds like a fun game. I'm not going on. Like, it sounds very mindless to give to a child, but like it sounds kind of fun. Like maybe if she was doing it with somebody else she wouldn't have been his board.
Speaker 2:Yeah. But yeah. And I think also the fact that he wrote it both tapping into his own childhood but then writing it for his daughters. I think with the really interesting sort of line to be between because it was just, I don't know, it's just, just like little things that I thought were funny when she is home alone. Cuz her parents have been taken by the other mother and she hasn't really figured that out quite yet. And she's like typing on her dad's typewriter and her story, I can't remember how it goes, but it's like, oh, and then she danced and danced, uh, until her feet turned to like sausages or something.
Speaker 1:<laugh>. But
Speaker 2:Then the way that it's about sausages,
Speaker 1:<laugh>, I was, was trying to figure out what that was supposed to say. I was, okay, this says supposed to say turn, but I'm like, what is it supposed to say?<laugh>?
Speaker 2:Um, but yeah, just those little things that like reminds you like the protagonist is a child. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I mean he's like towing the line definitely between an adult, like a father kind of writing this and you know, kind of writing up on the perspective of his own childhood experiences because Yes. Uh, like how it said he based the flat on where he grew up when he was a child, and again, like Johnny said, was borrowing from probably a lot of his own, like the books that he read as a child as well. But then they're just like little things that it's like, Yeah, dad wrote them<laugh>. Yeah. Like when it's like, oh yeah, you have to appreciate<laugh> what you have. Yeah. Like her parents are busy but you know, they, they do love her and it's like, you know, please recognize that just because a dad may be busy does not mean that you know he doesn't love you. Right. Or like, the grass isn't always greener and yes, you may want adventure, but sometimes the mundane is just as interesting. Like we have to find interesting in the mundane and the way that he wrote that at the end when she goes back to her own world and it's like the sky has never been so sky
Speaker 1:Right. The
Speaker 2:World has never been so world<laugh>.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So yeah, just like sprinkling in those little like, I don't know, like life advice.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And even when, you know, when her dad, she call, she calls her her dad's recipes, which is so funny to me. She's like, I know you just used a recipe. And I'm like, how else are you supposed to cook
Speaker 2:<laugh>?
Speaker 1:But at the end, you know, she, she eats the recipe even though she doesn't like it, it's pizza. But she, she's like, Yeah but you know, I picked out the pineapples or something like that. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Which I think in a way is like, you may not, I feel like it's a lesson in a way and I'm still trying to figure out exactly how to word it. But you know, with life you may not like all of it, but you take what you get and then, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think it was symbolic. I know it's just pizza, but I think it was symbolic
Speaker 1:And also pineapples on pizza. Controversial topic
Speaker 3:Question mark.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I'm gonna say I like them.<laugh>
Speaker 1:It like it has to be with other things that can't just be by themselves much.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's, that's
Speaker 3:True. That's, I mean the other big thing and especi like definitely a dadism. Um, you know, it's like you're also, it getting everything you want. You know, as kids it's just like, I want what I want and I want it now. You know, and it's like recognizing, it's like if you like getting everything you want doesn't really mean anything. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> like none of the, then the things that you get don't mean anything cuz you just get whatever you want.
Speaker 1:Especially if you know you're gonna get everything you want. Exactly. And I think that, I think Coralline kind of touches on that. She's basically like, well what fun is getting everything I want if I know I'm gonna get everything I want. Right. Like it, it's almost like there's no, I mean not to say that it's good to be disappointed sometimes, but it's just like if you know you're always gonna get what you want, it's just
Speaker 3:Eh, and getting everything you want from your parents doesn't equate to love.
Speaker 1:Yes. Because clearly the other mother was claimed she loved her because she was giving her all these, she's like, Yo, we can have all this fun and da da da da da. Yeah. But sometimes it's okay to just not
Speaker 3:<laugh> and coraline like finds her strength, like thinking about her parents, she thinks about, you know, the time her mom was like helping her learn to ride a bike and she fell but got back up. I mean it's like she recognizes her parents can't physically help her in the moment, but then she does go back and like, these are things that will help me moving forward. As you know, like you said, coming of age, it's like as an adult and moving into teen year and all these things, it's like parents do, you know, they teach us things that we don't always think about until we have to<laugh>. You know? And so I like that too.
Speaker 1:It gave them, it gave them more of a personality than you would expect them to have had in the beginning. Exactly. Yes. Cause they were just like, eh, go away. Go away. And then by the end you come to appreciate those little, you know, and then he pick at the end, he picks her up and hugs her like so hard. Like he hadn't hugged her since she was little. And it's funny because it's just like, you know, Coraline expressed that she doesn't think that they know that they've been gone away for so long. But that hug that he gave her made it seem like in a subconscious kind of way. He felt like he was missing her.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, which is just the sweetest. Yeah.
Speaker 2:<laugh>.
Speaker 1:I love this book. I'm so glad we read it.
Speaker 5:<laugh>. Yeah. Now I'm gonna go run and watch the movie
Speaker 3:<laugh>.
Speaker 2:I will say that from one of his interviews, he did say that one of the reasons why he likes to write things that are a bit more scary is where there are monsters, there are miracles. And I, I think that that was like really sweet cuz I was like, yeah. In choline I feel like she didn't really, really appreciate what she had until she recognized that it could possibly all be taken away from her. And then also like even just the way that maybe as a child, she wasn't really thinking about love or the differences in love mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And then after this kind of came to a conclusion that there was sort of like different types of love and that it was her parent, like her actual parent's love that she was striving to, I guess protect versus like the other mother who I think she said, you know, I, I do believe she loves me, but only in so far as what she can get from me as a possess. Yeah. And so then as soon as I'm, I've wasted away like these other souls, like I'm no one to her. So. Right. I don't know. Yeah. That was a very profound person.
Speaker 5:Yes.
Speaker 2:Very profound.
Speaker 3:Very, I mean, Neil Gaman is like incredibly quotable too as you know. And he always puts like really good quotes from other authors. Usually in the beginning of his book, like the version of Coralline that I have, it's fairy tales are more than true. Not cuz they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten. Mm. And it's just like, Oh my goodness,<laugh>,
Speaker 5:Oh my goodness. Every,
Speaker 3:Every child needs to like hear that, you know, that same thing. It's just like, there are gonna be hard things that happen to you but you can get through them and sometimes you have to get through them on your own and it's just like, oh my goodness. In a, in a children's book, you know, you get all of that and as a child reading, you know, yes, we can't say that like, you know, we read it at nine but at the same time all of that is subliminal to children. You know, we read it and then can get back to it later when we need it. And it's just the best and it is what it is.
Speaker 5:Can you say that? Sorry.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're right. He's very quotable cuz honestly, like then I started to get into, it wasn't even about Coraline anymore, it's just interviews about him talking about writing in general because, you know, people really appreciate his writing and I, I don't think he originated it but he, it's something that I think he keeps in mind when he's writing and I think it's like one of the central tools of literature is using the lie of a made up story to tell a human truth. Yeah. So obviously like he has these very specific topics and themes and like lessons that he wants mm-hmm.<affirmative> I guess to instill, especially cuz this was made for his daughters, but kind of using this like fictional world to kind of tell that truth. And I think barring aspects from his own childhood and probably his experiences as a parent as well, those are the little things that really inform and kind of had this book a little bit more so that it has a bit more substance than just, you know, this made up story. Right.
Speaker 3:And just to, to mention too about like, uh, Darlene mentioned about the other mother loving her as a possession, as loving core line as a possession. And then with the button eyes thinking like we're dolls. Like we're not even like people. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, you know, like everyone in here is a possession, the other father is, you know, the rats are the rats do her bidding. You know, it was like everybody was her possession. Like regardless
Speaker 1:I was talked about the other father.
Speaker 3:Yeah.<laugh>. Yeah. And so it's just, it's just a really good story.
Speaker 2:Each episode we are heading into the library and talking to you, well not you, but people like you right here in the stacks today. We want to know about something they had to be brave about as a child.
Speaker 6:What
Speaker 7:Did you have to be brave about when you was a little kid
Speaker 3:Talking to strangers,
Speaker 8:Sleeping
Speaker 6:In the dark. Um, when I was a child, I used to go to my babysitter's house. He had like three pit bulls and I was afraid of dogs. And I used to have to go through this gate to get to her house. And dogs used to be loose in the backyard. I had to run from'em every day. I was afraid of dogs then, but I under conquer that fear as I got older. If dogs said, really are your best friend, when you really think about it.
Speaker 9:Um, I was brave by holding a little baby alligator at the zoo,
Speaker 6:Walking on ice lightening
Speaker 10:Earthworms. Cause when I used to go to elementary school, my sister told me that when it rains, earthworms fall from the sky.
Speaker 11:So<laugh>.
Speaker 10:So that's why
Speaker 11:When I was, uh, when I was a kid, I was always scared of the dark and my dad used to always make me take out the trash and it was all back in the back of the house. So I used to take the trash fast. Can the backyard sprint my way back?
Speaker 12:Uh, its something I had to be brave about when I was a kid was I was learning a ride bike and I was always afraid of falling down. Something
Speaker 13:I had to be rude about was having surgery.<laugh>. I had to have my spleen out because my blood thought it, my spleen thought my blood was a disease.
Speaker 2:All right, so now we're gonna head into our game segment. And for this game segment we're gonna do a Buzzfeed quiz as we're known to do<laugh>. And this one is called We Know which Coralline character you are based on how you spend a fall day. So almost neat. Does buzzfeed know what Coralline character we are? All right. So the first one is pick a fall treat and you have a ghost latte. So basically a latte with foam art to look like a ghost, a fall feast with what looks like sweet potato pie or pumpkin pie. Apple crumble and ginger snaps.
Speaker 1:I'm very torn on this one because I, last year one of my neighbors moved in and she gave us like a big old box of huge apples and I looked up desserts to make with apples and I made some apple crumble and it came out kind of good. But I think ginger snaps are something that I'd be more likely to to eat. So I'm gonna go with ginger snaps. I've
Speaker 3:Also gotta go with ginger snaps. They're just so
Speaker 1:Delightful. Yeah, Nah, I kind of want some right
Speaker 3:<laugh>,
Speaker 2:So I dunno which one I'd pick. I do love a good latte. I ghost is so cute. Yeah, I was gonna say, I don't know that I've ever had it with any latte. Art<laugh>. Yeah. We'll go with ghost latte or I'll go with ghost latte. All right, next one is, what outdoor activity will you do? Is it a bonfire hike, Scary corn maze or apple picking?
Speaker 1:You know, I know which one I'm not doing and it's hiking because that sounds, uh,<laugh>. That sounds very, uh, tedious. Um, I'm torn because all the other three options sound really cool. I've only ever done a bonfire, but also a scary corn maze or apple picking sounds fun. So, Hmm. If I'm spending, uh, a fall day, I guess I'm gonna go with bonfire since that's what I've actually done before. But apple picking sounds fun too. It was close second.
Speaker 3:Um, you know, I'm gonna have to go for the tedious hike, you know,
Speaker 2:<laugh>,
Speaker 14:You know,
Speaker 3:My husband and I love hiking. It's like a pastime of ours. So I gotta go with the hike. Look how beautiful the sun through
Speaker 1:The train is. I, I'm, might have to take some tips from you before I give
Speaker 14:That a try.
Speaker 2:<laugh><laugh>. Yeah. These all seem like fun. Oh my God. Just gonna be really indecisive. This whole quiz. It's either they're fun, that's how you know it's a good one. Yeah, it's either bonfire or scary corn maze though. I think. I think I'll go with the scary corn maze. So the next question is after pumpkin picking, what will you carve into it? So first one is a scary face, creepy spiders. A happy face or a smokey face. Uh, which I guess you would just put like smoke in the lanter, not the smoke come out. Um, menacingly<laugh>.
Speaker 1:I'm very torn because like spiders, you know, classic Halloween stuff. Also think of Spider-Man, but I think I'm gonna go with this smokey face cuz this smoky face looks kind of fire like
Speaker 15:<laugh>. It does look really cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Like,
Speaker 3:You know, this is, this one is hard for me. I feel like my jackal lanterns are always between a scary face and a happy face. So it's,
Speaker 2:It's whatever I'm feeling in the moment. Exactly.
Speaker 3:Um, I think I'll go with scary face.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think I'll get the opposite and do happy face. Next question. What costume would you pick? A witch, A face mask, a fairy princess or an animal. That animal looks really scary.
Speaker 1:I'm scary. I'll go with,
Speaker 5:It's really scary.
Speaker 3:It's like the Donny Darco rabbit.
Speaker 5:It's like
Speaker 3:What?
Speaker 1:I'm gonna go with Fairy princess and I'm was also trying to figure out what I'm gonna be for Halloween this year and that might be a contender. So thanks Buzzfeed
Speaker 5:<laugh>.
Speaker 3:Um, I, I gotta, I guess I'll, I would probably, you know, I don't know. Um, I guess I would be an animal.
Speaker 2:I think I'm gonna go with witch
Speaker 5:<laugh>.
Speaker 2:What indoor activity would you like to do? Fall baking. Fall decorating. Being cozy or taking fall pictures.
Speaker 1:Okay. I just wanna say that. Why are you taking fall photos inside<laugh>? I feel like fall photos would be more so taken outside because of all the
Speaker 2:Leaves. Yeah, no you're right. It's
Speaker 3:Such a hilarious indoor
Speaker 5:Activity. Yeah, like,
Speaker 1:Like I'm gonna go with fall baking. I'm not great at baking, but I like baking. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Same. Being
Speaker 1:Cozy. How is that even an activity? Sorry,
Speaker 5:I'm gonna go cozy<laugh>.
Speaker 3:I gotta go with fall baking too, honestly. Yeah,
Speaker 2:I think that three for three I'm doing fall baking. Cause
Speaker 1:All the other options suck.<laugh>. Right.
Speaker 5:I know
Speaker 3:Like,
Speaker 2:So this is the last one, but I'm kind of curious like who would you just not want to get on this quiz?
Speaker 1:The other weather
Speaker 5:Okay's funny.
Speaker 3:I have to say the other father would be my like least wanted character. Okay. Because like you expect the other mother to be like bad. Mm-hmm<affirmative>. But there was always this little bit of sympathy for the other father. Yeah. But then at the end he's like, I can't be brave and I'm gonna like try to eat you in my worm form or whatever. So I think he's the worst
Speaker 5:Actually. Divorce
Speaker 2:A Johnny take
Speaker 5:<laugh>.
Speaker 2:All right. Yeah. So the last one is lastly pick a fall outfit vibe. So the first one is simple and it's someone in a like orange and black strip shirt and overalls, like denim overalls. Then there's comfy. So someone holding like three chunky sweaters. Quirky, uh, I guess plaid pants are quirky.<laugh>
Speaker 5:<laugh>.
Speaker 2:And last one is eye catching. So someone with like a jacket that's like bright red,
Speaker 1:I'm gonna go with comfy because around fall time it starts to get real cold in my opinion, depending on when it is. And I just wanna be comfy for real. Also like as a librarian, I love a good part again. Like I got one on the back of my chair right now, so comfy for me. Also eye catching. She looks cute and all, but she don't look like she's dressed for fall.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it's like a little like crop top<laugh> and yeah. No<laugh>. No, I mean I love a good crop top. Sorry, I just
Speaker 5:Meant my<laugh>. No, I also love good crop top<laugh>. It's a
Speaker 2:Skirt. Yeah. As it's getting cold. I'm like, yeah, that's when I retire my
Speaker 5:<laugh>. Yeah. Oh my.
Speaker 3:I gotta go with comfy too. I like a nice like comfy sweater. Just being comfy in the fall.
Speaker 2:For sure. Yeah. I think I'm gonna go for a comfy as well.
Speaker 3:<laugh>.
Speaker 2:Oh no.
Speaker 5:Oh no,
Speaker 1:Darlene, you gotta go first.
Speaker 2:Oh god. Okay. Uh, so I got other mother
Speaker 3:<laugh>
Speaker 5:But not the worst. And B, the other father would've
Speaker 3:Been the worst.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know. But I just, my, my line of sight kind of like read the first line and I like, Yeah,
Speaker 1:No, that's the worst. Read
Speaker 2:It out. It said you can be a bit manipulative toward other people in an attempt for them to like you tried to be a little more open-minded and learn to let things go. How
Speaker 1:Did they get that from the questions they
Speaker 5:Asked us?
Speaker 1:Didn't ask anything about what would you do in this scenario, but they got that response.
Speaker 5:It was the ghost latte. It had to be the ghost latte.
Speaker 2:I was like, I put happy faces on my pumpkins. What do you mean? I mother, Mother
Speaker 5:<laugh>.
Speaker 1:That's how you draw them
Speaker 2:In. It's a Yeah, yeah, you're right.
Speaker 3:Um, so, So I got the cat. Oh that's a great one. Yeah. You've been described as quiet and observant. You don't jump at every opportunity, but when your friends need you, you're always there. You're protective and have good morals. We need more people like you out there. Thanks bud. Buzzfeed. Oh that's, Oh I love, so nice.
Speaker 1:So I guess these characters might be based off the movie cuz I got yy. Is that one
Speaker 3:Of the
Speaker 2:Souls? No, he's a new character that they put in the movie.
Speaker 1:But I'm gonna read what it says. I am anyway just now like I will get the character, but it's not even in the book. You're adventurous and loyal, you're always around at the right time either to offer a friend some good advice or to save them from harm. You may not always feel appreciated, but don't worry you're important to many people.
Speaker 3:Oh, that's awesome.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's
Speaker 1:Awesome. I feel
Speaker 2:Seen actually Ywe is like almost like a selfer of Coline herself. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> because basically in the book you get a lot of her thought process about things and as she's like going through it mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And so for the movie, I think obviously they needed to expand it cause this is a pretty short book. Yeah. And so to kind of externalize all of those thoughts going in her mind mm-hmm.<affirmative>, they created that character, you know, as sort of exposition like, oh, you know that house that you're in<laugh>, it has a lot of lore behind it. Yeah. Like that kind of thing. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. So yeah.
Speaker 1:Thank you darling. Shout out to Darlene for making me feel better.<laugh>.
Speaker 5:But
Speaker 3:It is funny that they a like, they didn't make that character a girl. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> that they made her friend a boy, which
Speaker 1:Had to balance it out for the movie, I guess. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 5:<laugh>
Speaker 3:Seem, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's true. Because most of the stronger characters in this book are all female characters, which we'll get into in a bit<laugh>, but Yeah. Yeah, you're right. I didn't even think about it in terms of why they would make Y be a boy.
Speaker 3:Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Each episode we ask whether our book passes the Beal test. The Beal test asks whether a work features two female characters who talk to each other about something that doesn't involve men or boys. Does it pass?
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 3:Yes. Resounding yes. Yeah.
Speaker 2:<laugh>, there's like no romance whatsoever in this book, right? Yeah. I mean, I don't know if it's also like her age, but, And the fact that she's not with anyone else her age and it is kind of like a solo adventure for the most part. Yeah. Uh, yeah. There's really no opportunity for her to talk about boys, their romantic interests or anything of that sort. It's just her trying to survive.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Like the only other guy that she's really talking to anybody about is when she's talking other mother and she's like, Where are my parents? So it's not like, it's just, where's my dad? It's my parents. Like,
Speaker 2:Yeah. Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well that's it for this episode of these books Made me join us next time and we'll discuss a book about a girl who has a cook who is a fairy godmother. If you think you know which book we're tackling next, drop us a tweet. We're at pgc mls on Twitter and hashtag these books made me. You can also send us your questions at these books Made me@pgcmls.info for historical deep dives. And Rita likes Check out our blog, which is linked to the episode notes.